 Poster: A snowHead
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I'd like to see a before and after of someone skiing to see how really beneficial this might be to punters.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, i would say it could do , but it depends on the foot and the amount of lift of the hallux.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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CEM, Can you describe the type of foot and amount of lift to the hallux that wouldn't have it's Dorsiflex effected? 
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if you have a foot with limited dorsiflexion of the hallux, then trying to lift the toe can invert the foot and jam everything up, if the foot is very mobile and the hallux is lifted too far this cna cause the 1st metatsal shaft to plantar flex making a depression below the 1st MPJ in the orthotic if this is not accounted for in the finishing process then the orthotic will invert the forefoot with the same effect.
I think looking at this another way if the technician takes all factors into account when producing the device it will not limit the amount of dorsiflexion available, but that amount is the amount available and it cannot be increased without working on the selective muscles which are either weak or tight
my brain hurts now, i know waht i am trying to say but the words aren't coming to me right now
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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CEM, Stand barefoot, flat as you feel comfy, then flex, now lift the big toe as if in windlass, now flex.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Wow -
CEM yes - I'll call you next time I am in London:sH:
jimmjimm,
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How can you say that it is only for racers and John Wayne?
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In the context of my post I was answering skimottaret who asked if grinding was for 'High End' - I think I answered by saying it is 'really for racers and john wayne (extreme alignment problems - bow legged), and not 'only' for racers.........
Bode is also a natural and awesome talent - it helps.
Alginment, there are many variables to consider and IMHO a global approach should be taken.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, when i do that the 1st ray trys to plantar flex and hits the ground which inverts my foot, if the ground was very soft then it will not invert but the 1st mpj would plantar flex to a level below the natural ground surface, if this is the natural position of the foot when in a neutral position [as if the foot were non weight bearing, in sub talar neutral, ie the forefoot pronated against the rearfoot to lock the mid tarsal joint] then it must be accounted for in the manufacture of the orthotic device
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CEM, Ok, Stand on the lateral plane of both feet, almost to the extreme of falling over, see the effect on dorsiflexion, when you bring the foot back through STN to pronation. I think the difference between the two points is unbeliveable, on me at least.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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CEM, my point earlier about "correction" was, as I'm sure you have come across, some/many UK based bootfitters trying to "correct" say, a completely pronated person into a neutral position with a footbed with an exceedingly high arch etc.
Without the knowledge or skills of what they are actually doing! 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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veeeight, I think that should have been chucked at me, i'm not sure, but i agree and was part of my point about a well made Orthotic could add dorsiflexion. In reflection i see how that sounds odd, but if one has only ever skied with the kind of Orthotic you talk about i belive dorsiflexion will be reduced.
I think your point about 'Bootfitters' making 'Corrective' footbeds for skiing (NOT WALKING or EVERYDAY!), not being an issue if handled properly. This may anger the qualified but hey.
IMO most bootfitters mean well, i hope! None of them want to play Doctor, Doctors and Nurses i do however enjoy.
Second, many of the work i have seen from the 'qualified' is as useful as a Chocolate Teapot.
Third, Bootfitters are experimental by nature, well we are, and will like to play with what they know and push the boundries to find the limits, this may include trying to see if they can do work they hear the mysterious 'Podatrist' does.
Fourth, If you were, in therory to inform your client, "I think this is your problem, i think i can fix it like this, i'm not a podiatrist or Doctor, i propose this, it's free and i'd like you to take it to see our physio to have your body checked out with it." Where is the harm?
OOOOps, dropped the can, worms escaping rapidly.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, i know what you are saying...what point are we trying to prove, as i read it an orthotic device which holds the foot in the correct position will allow more dorsiflexion than one which is over corrected....
****there is an amount of dorsiflexion available, this cannot be increased except by muscle stretching / strenghtening however it an be optomised by using the correctly made orthotic device****
veeeight, the understanding of morphology of the foot and biomechnaics is key to this, there are several types of pronated foot, but let's just look at two basic types RIGID and FLEXIBLE the rigid pronated foot is very hard to get into a true neutral position and it is these feet where most of the problems occur as people try to correct them*, the flexible pronated foot can be easily positioned into a neutral position, doing this is not [and this depends on the methodology] correcting the foot but supporting it in a position which the muscluature is unable to support it in [a chair as metioned earlier in the thread is an orthoitc device, it supports the body in a position which the muscluature of the body could not do for long periods of time]
* going back to this, a true rigid flat foot functions perfectly well in the position in which it is, trying to correct this would be interesting , where is the correct position?? IMO exactly where it sits on its own the key being that it is RIGID
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You know it makes sense.
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CEM, On the Nose son, i'm cracking at this writing lark. BTW this is an early season dump of strong rigid feet of all shapes, i think Hyper-Mobility may strike around March this year. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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tailskidder, That sounds spot on.
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Poster: A snowHead
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SMALLZOOKEEPER,
thank you - now the next time you go to 'The Office' turn off your computer and don't turn it back on until the morning 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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tailskidder, Go Pi$$ up a rope Feck stick. Allow me to reveal that as my true self.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, we had a small shower of hypermobility last week but yesterday had a dump of rigid i can't bend my ankle the best of which had been upsized and put on a pronated footbed and had the shell stretched to accomodate the compensation all when a heel lift and a decent footbed would have suficed 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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trying help with all good intentions by correcting a low arch (Pes Planus) with a high arch footbed or worse, inverting a high arch footbed!
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I stood and watched, aghast, with one of my instructor colleagues, at the London Ski Show (probably the worst example) - customer after customer, who were having their footbeds made in the above manner...... 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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veeeight, Funnily enough, the don't teach that at Sidas in Voiron anymore. Give it five years and it will filtre though to the UK.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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don't teach that at Sidas in Voiron anymore
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Hopefully they never did  - Sidas has a box of horrors collected during visits by one of their techs to resort shops. You can lead a donkey to......................
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I stood and watched, aghast, with one of my instructor colleagues, at the London Ski Show (probably the worst example) - customer after customer, who were having their footbeds made in the above manner......
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Rule 1# Never buy ski boots or footbeds at ski shows.
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Try telling that to those that queue and stampede inside, making a beeline for the boot stores...............
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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tailskidder, veeeight, Those people that buy ski boots at shows are an important part of my business, they become our clients after a week of skiing in their boots.
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you've got to admit that a three finger shell check does actually provides plenty of 'out of the box comfort' and room to grow!.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| tailskidder wrote: |
| you've got to admit that a three finger shell check does actually provides plenty of 'out of the box comfort' and room to grow!. |
Got my boots specified at the ski show by CEM with a 9/10mm shell gap. Should've gone to EB's
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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CEM, thanks that makes sense, i may pop round some time to have you look at alignment, but i think i should try to improve strength and flexibilty in my weak leg before hand. i really like your views about how the different professions attack the problem, i may need a bit of everything
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You know it makes sense.
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skimottaret, the machine we use for the balance testing is not mine and is not always here, so best give me a call and we can find a time when it is available for use
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FAQ
and undoubtedly will be in the UK sooner or later 