 Poster: A snowHead
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| Kramer wrote: |
The avalung may be a better bet after all. |
And you can use them in tree wells.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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ref air travel, see what I posted earlier, it suggets you print the PDF I linked to and take it with you.
Would be interesting to hear how this works in practise though!
cheers,
greg
| kitenski wrote: |
reckon I could be interested in a group discount! One of the guys JT has skied with wore one last year, hopefully he'll pipe up on here...
ABS, the German manufacturer, studied 26 avalanches worldwide between 1991 and 2000 where the Airbag was used. 40 people were equipped with Airbags, 32 people were found with the airbags deployed, 6 hadn't activated the system and 2 systems hadn't worked due to technical problems. Half of the 32 victims remained on the surface of the slide. Of the 5 people completely buried their airbags were visible on the surface. The system does not help if the victim is stationary within an avalanche, say trapped by rocks or a tree. An avalanche transceiver should always be worn as well.
Their webpage suggests http://www.abssystem.com/abs-Dateien/main-Dateien/facts/airtransport.htm
Since 2003 it is officially permitted by the IATA organization to take your ABS pack with you when you travel by air worldwide. Please print out the enclosed .pdf file and present it to the check in personell at the airport. These forms are also available at (most) airports.
As far as we know, all European airlines transport the ABS without a problem. Due to recent developments American airlines tend to refuse the transportation of ABS. Please check with your airline before you book your flight. |
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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kitenski, if you look on that PDF, air carriage is at the operators discretion, and as mentioned elsewhere that's where the problem lies. Getting an answer in advance is difficult, if not impossible, and that would make it very difficult.
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Purely a word of caution on the selection of either ABS or Avalung - I feel they should be judged on their merits and their suitability to the individuals safety needs on the mountain, rather that whether airlines will carry the gas cannisters or not. Be selfish with your choice - it's your life!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| BernardC wrote: |
| Purely a word of caution on the selection of either ABS or Avalung - I feel they should be judged on their merits and their suitability to the individuals safety needs on the mountain, rather that whether airlines will carry the gas cannisters or not. Be selfish with your choice - it's your life! |
I agree with this. How much of a hassle can it actually be? An extra hour at check-in? Whatever it is, for me it's a no brainer...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Anyone ever tried or thinking about importing an ABS from the US, what with the dollar being so low at the moment. May take a google around this weekend at US prices and delivery etc.
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Kramer- yes, but the website also says "As far as we know, all European airlines transport the ABS without a problem."
Marketing or truth???
waynos - not sure the $ is going to help! Their website says:
"The ABS system is only available for purchase from Europe / Germany where they are manufactured. However, for your convenience Mountain Safety Systems (MSS) has been designated as a customer service provider within North America for all ABS products"
cheers,
Greg
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| parlor wrote: |
| BernardC wrote: |
| Purely a word of caution on the selection of either ABS or Avalung - I feel they should be judged on their merits and their suitability to the individuals safety needs on the mountain, rather that whether airlines will carry the gas cannisters or not. Be selfish with your choice - it's your life! |
I agree with this. How much of a hassle can it actually be? An extra hour at check-in? Whatever it is, for me it's a no brainer... |
I disagree.
It's one thing to be hassled or even charged extra. But if the carrier denies the carrige, you don't have it with you in the resort.
The best gadget is useless if you can't have it WITH YOU!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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abc, do you know if TSA even know about the things at present?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Yes, ise, exactly why I wonder. Betcha people get stopped every airport except maybe SLC, for the next couple of years or so.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| BernardC wrote: |
| Purely a word of caution on the selection of either ABS or Avalung - I feel they should be judged on their merits and their suitability to the individuals safety needs on the mountain, rather that whether airlines will carry the gas cannisters or not. Be selfish with your choice - it's your life! |
I agree for this in principle, but it also has to be practical. For yourself and parlor, the (rare) times that you need to take it on a plane shouldn't be a huge problem but for me it would be. There's also the hassle of finding a dealer with a new cannister in stock every time you go away. To have the rucksac without the cannister would also be useless.
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brian
brian
Guest
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You know it makes sense.
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Would it not be possible to send a Cannister on ahead via DHL or another.
If you know the Hotel or Chalet your gonna be staying at im sure they wouldnt object to it being sent failing that tourist information maybe or one of the ski schools (should you be using there services) or the rep.
Also the kit comes with two Cannisters one you deploy in the shop for the demo and one you have full.
Once you have refilled the spare i'd maybe take one with you on the plane and post the other.
Ive not flown with mine so cant comment but would i say anything at check in proberly not unless specifically asked.
Thinking about it is a can of hairspray not more dangerous than a can of nearly 100% inert gas.
Eurotunnel they do but it's more about explosive gasses and fire risk i think.
Regards Mark
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Topsmoke wrote: |
Thinking about it is a can of hairspray not more dangerous than a can of nearly 100% inert gas.
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hardly, abs is 150 liter Nitrogen-air mix and a small pyrotechnic device as a trigger
| Topsmoke wrote: |
Would it not be possible to send a Cannister on ahead via DHL or another.
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not using a standard service I suspect, gases and explosives are specifically prohibited.
The other problem, not mentioned here, is that they're horrible rucksacks, unnecessarily heavy and come in inconvenient sizes. The newer vario's do improve things some though.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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BernardC, I saw LP Piste patrollers were wearing ABS rucksacks last season, they looked like 'issued standard' equipment  ?
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BernardC,
I want to do more multi-day hut to hut tours but don't want to carry around a 50L all the time so vario looked like a niffty solution. They are not cheap at ca 600 GBP so want to look into more before buying.
What specifically do you prefer about your own (ABS?) ruck sack?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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boredsurfin, ... well spotted ...  They like their lives and I think the same ....  ... whatever the percentages are, it gives an edge ....
DB, ... just for clarity this is the one I use. Don't get me wrong, the newer version is a great pack, lighter and more adaptable. It may be ideal for your situation in that you can have the basic 'operating system' and then zip a 15L or 30L on for normal use and change over to 50L for multi-day tours. Cost is a factor - I don't know what the add on cost is for a 50L 'attachment' is yet, but I must examine your linked site.
I love the way my pack is designed. No unecessary straps or fiddly bits. Great, really tough ballistic background, fabrics. It can be set down, back straps on the ground and opened much like a suitcase. Everything inside is immediately visible and readily to hand - no taking everything out, just to get to something at the bottom of a regular pack. I can easily fit a 3l water hydration system, shovel, probe, first aid kit, bivvy bag, rope, axe, spare gloves, spare goggles, 'emergency repair kit' (duck tape & cable ties ... ), skins, crampons, extra clothing layer, tupperware grub box and packet of jaffa cakes ... 
It is really comfortable to wear with really great strap adjustment which allows distribution of most of the pack weight to the hips, rather that the shoulders. Straps are ideal for fitting a mountain radio pack. A slight trade-off is carrying skis vertically on the back of the pack, rather than 'A frame' on the sides of the pack, as the 'air bags' deploy from the sides. I got used to that pretty easily & was even able to tab flat-out, over 7km of bog and rock, from a 'lost valley' to catch a last lift at the EoSB.... ... and then eat & drink copious amounts later that evening ..... 
In my view it would be difficult to sustain more than 2 days touring/backcountry with this pack, unless availing of catered huts, but I would certainly recommend it highly up to that point.
I felt that the 'Vario' as it is now called, did not have the same ease, or fluidity of access to the main compartment. Although designated 30L, I was not able to fit all of my stuff into it, although this may be due to the fact that my pack is greater than 30L, rather than the Vario being less than 30L. That really is my main gripe so to speak. The Vario is slightly lighter, but so too is the entire 'feel' of the pack.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Fri 30-11-07 14:30; edited 1 time in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Just bought one for $350 (nb $ not £) over on another board.
A whole bunch of them came from a Heli operator upgrading to new stock.
I can't say that I needed one, but at that price I fugured it was a good thing to leave in the ski room to be taken out on longer excursion days.
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I think they are probably a no-brainer for those with a local resort who fit the profile or who travel by car but the airline impracticalities are a major obstacle. Its hard enough finding an email address that doesn't bounce at most airlines let alone a real person with authority to make decisions on things like this and I don't want to have to spend 3 days a month in advance sorting out every trip I make. The hassle of tracking down a dealer in each resort and buying a cylinder each time is also a deterrent. I don't know the solution but maybe if buying a pack came with a membership card that enabled you to easily lease cylinders (at nominal charge) from authorised dealers in each resort you went to then it could be feasible. After all scuba divers don't take tanks with them everywhere they go.
Probably needs a bit of network management from ABS e.g. you don't want to rock up in a resort on a bluebird powder day to find your designated dealer isn't open but might widen the attraction of the product.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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fatbob, I have sent a communication to ABS-Lawinen .. just to see what their present position is.
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interesting story under 23rd Nov at the Alpine Experience diary page here:
http://www.alpineexperience.com/news.html
As I slowed down prior to stopping, finishing a left turn, my right pole-plant started disappearing down into the snow. It was as if my collapsible ski pole was collapsing. I looked to my right at the line of the shoulder beside me and realised I was still moving (“I know this one”) …only now I was lying on my back (yep, been here before) looking down the slope where I was still heading. This is the roller coaster ride just about to wind itself up. I grabbed for my air-bag handle and missed (did I put it in at the top of the slope? It was only a couple of minutes ago, but I had a guilty feeling I’d forgotten). Too late; it’s time to concentrate and spread my weight as much as possible over the surface of the moving carpet of snow that now has me in its power.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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for those scoffing at the idea of putting the avalung mouthpiece in your mouth, i do think it's probably at least as difficult to pull the ripcord.
i actually think that both devices have fairly limited use - they may help you if the avalanche is big enough to bury you, but not big enough to mess you up with trauma. a fairly limited set of circumstances IMO. it's a cliche but best not to get caught in the first place.
i do take issue with Parlor's comment (sorry, mate) about avalungs not being much use if you all get buried. this just should not happen. ski one by one from one point of safety to the next.
ultimately, it's entirely a personal decision and i think that both are nice to haves rather than must haves. these devices only save you unlike the bleeper, probe and shovel which you can use to save your mate. i have an avalung pack because it is so convenient, weighs hardly anything and is a very good pack even without the avalung. i can see that that ABS is probably marginally better if you put factors such as weight, hassle in the airport etc to one side, but it's not so much better that it outweighs those downsides IMO
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| BernardC wrote: |
| DB, I have used one of the prototypes 'on test' for a few days last season. One of the designers is based in Val d'Isere. |
The Vario was developed by ABS and the Tignes Piste Patrol and is aimed for use by patrollers.
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Found this about ABS & airplanes
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ABS Airline Carry-Ons
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ABS gear packs are generally permitted as carry-on items aboard an aircraft according to the general rules of IATA (International Air Transport Association). We highly recommend that you inform your airline about your ABS airbag at least 14 days before departure, or note it on your ticket at the time of purchase.
Bring a printed copy of the appropriate IATA documents and data sheet to present upon request at the airline’s check-in counter.
IATA Document
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With the approval of the operator(s), one avalanche rescue backpack per person equipped with a pyrotechnic trigger mechanism containing not more than 200 mg net of Division 1.4S and a cylinder of compressed gas of Division 2.2 not exceeding 250ml. The backpack must be packed in such a manner that it cannot be accidentally activated. The airbags within the backpack must be fitted with pressure relief valves.
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http://www.abs-lawinenairbag.de/abs_flugzeug.php?chid=1234&m=17&lang=uk&sid=9057eea39105a10c00736faeca2d8724
Had one of the Vario 50L rucksacks in me mitts today. Also saw an 18L compatibe millet rucksack but would probably go for a 28L (for day tours). The millet rucksack had the option to mount the skis on the sides whereas with the Vario 50 the skis are mounted directly vertical on the back - not keen on this as the skis can catch the feet or back of the head when booting up. From what I could see the Vario didn't have the option of a drink system either whereas the millet did.
http://www.abs-lawinenairbag.de/vario.php?chid=1268&m=17&lang=uk&sid=9057eea39105a10c00736faeca2d8724
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You know it makes sense.
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DB, The facts of Airlines rules are well known - indeed full IATA links are already on this post. In theory there is no problem. But certain airlines seem to adopt the 'Computer says no...!' attitude. Apparently when snowHeads have contacted airlines for advice, the have been ignored. Has anyone actually just turned up with a copy of the IATA rules and tried it ...... ?
I can only speak for the Escape 30 ABS and say that carrying skis vertically is a delight with that pack. The pack sits very comfortably and snugly and the skis follow suit. Ditto it has hydration specific pocket and tube access, though I have fitted an insulated cover to the tube, taken from my previous BCA pack.
I have sent a fairly detailed e-mail to ABS Lawinen last week, highlighting the issues facing snowHeads and some of the possible solutions, but have yet to hear from them.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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I checked with Flybe through Mark Warner. They e-mailed me back to say that it was ok to carry it, but I would need to advise them two weeks prior to my flight that I intended to do so.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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so it's now 2009, any frequent fliers been travelling with ABS rucksacks?? I'm contemplating a new backpack, either ABS or one with integrated avalung............
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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also, anyone know of any deals on these??
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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You still have to fire the ABS off tho....and be prepared to fire it off.. and I am not that sold on the pack itself..with a bit of kit, ie a decent shovel.. it could be quite heavy for a day pack
Apart from the travelling issue, the best thing out there, still...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Arno wrote: |
| also, anyone know of any deals on these?? |
...and sell me your avalung one 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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My ABS rucksack handle wouldn't release and then wouldn't click in once. I almost set it off just trying to release the handle. Great that I carried ca 3 kg more weight up a long tour only to find it wouldn't of helped me in an avalanche. Applying a bit of oil/grease helped and it was soon back to normal. I now check to see it is operating smoothly before every trip.
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I have used one of these last 2 seasons. Its a vario 15; with this design you can change the volume of your back pack. I dont tour so just use it for downhill with the occasional boot pack/rappel.
When sized and adjusted correctly its very comfortable to wear (it comes in different sizes; i would recommend buying it from a proper supplier to get it right). It does not interfere with a harness and there is no need to take it off on modern chairlifts. Skis can b attached to the back without compromising its function. It is heavy and it did take me a little while to get used to the extra weight but now i dont notice it. However if you are into touring i can see why you may have reservations. I have had the same problem that DB reports but that is why they supply the silicone 'oil' thingy with the bag.
Although in the past we normally drove this year we had to fly. I contacted easyjet a few weeks prior to flying and although they aware of IATA certification they still refused to let me fly with the trigger and canister. I landed up discharging my bag and simply packing the empty cylinder and trigger with the rest of my clobber. Replacements cost me 27 euros.
As far as i am concerned avalung is a non starter: for it to work you have to be a) conscious b) able to breath ie intact ribs etc and c) the avalanche debris has to allow your chest room to expand to take in a breath. ABS is deployed when the avalanche starts and helps minimise injury by keeping you in top of the snow.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Sorry for the for the long post i only noticed now that this thread started 2 years ago!
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....and that my post is off topic
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FAQ
I have added two strips of red electrical tape to ease recapture and to colour co-ordinate with my pack and complection ..... 
(one being a potential life saver).