 Poster: A snowHead
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Its incredible to think he came out of a situation like that alive, I've nothing but supreme admiration for what he did, its just incredible. I cant imagine what its like crawling more than few hundred yards on my backside, but getting down a mountain after going through that is absolutly amazing.
Not sure I totally agree with DG that "its surely the greatest true survival story ever". Not wishing to take anything away from the bloke, but in comparison to Ernest Shakleton and his team and what they endured getting back to civilisation from the Antarctic over many months was (IMO) in another league.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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What a fantastic film. I also, was completely glued to the television. I've never watched a film before that left me so emotional.
I, like Dan, would also like to know if the pair are still friends, as they were not shown together during the narrative sections. However, it did say at the end of the film that Joe still adamantly defends Simons decision to cut the rope.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Very, very brave. The description of his broken leg alone made me feel sick and imagine the torture of hearing the water but not being able to find it. How a person can find the will to keep going is beyond comprehension.
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Nick Zotov, I already said that I didn't blame him for not checking the crevasse, you wouldn't think that an already injured person stood much chance of survival from that fall so you expect to see a broken corpse, given his own condition at the time it's not surprising that he didn't check, I'm also not sure that he would have been able to do anything to help Joe even if he had, he was already exhausted having effectively been lowering both of them down most of the mountain in the middle of a storm
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I gather Simon gave up climbing. The huge criticism of him from the climbing fraternity plus his own feelings of guilt ...
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Fri 5-11-04 13:40; edited 1 time in total
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It was thrilling viewing - it's put me off mountain climbing for good! That was some luck going deeper into the crevass and getting a route out. Joe had some determination - I thought I was determined but he was incredible. My girlfriend watched also and she isn't that keen on mountain climbing anyway, next month I want to climb Mount Kinabalu the highest mountain in SE Asia (it is over 4000m but no snow or ice!), I think I have definitely put her off now!
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Jason, I'm under the impression (from friends who know both Joe and Simon) that they were never friends in the first place. They both happened to be climbers who wanted to do the same route. It is clear in the book, and Joe has repeated many times, that he believes that Simon did the correct thing in cutting the rope. Certainly, with the benefit of hindsight, it appears to have been the event that actually saved his life.
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Quick off topic question: Peter Ross, I'm off to Borneo next year and we're thinking of doing the Mount Kinabalu trek. It says you don't need to be an experienced climber as it's literally a trek. Are you planning a different route or do I need to take up a new hobby? Not much chance of that after last night's film.
Back on topic, even when they were climbing successfully it just looked like torture. As a spectator, I can't imagine that the sense of achievement alone is enough to take on that kind of challenge.
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Gripping stuff. I was so tense all the way through the film. It just goes to show that if your number's not up...........
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| Quote: |
Quick off topic question: Peter Ross, I'm off to Borneo next year and we're thinking of doing the Mount Kinabalu trek.
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hayley t, you are right it is meant to be an easy climb but I don't think that is true. I know two people who were there last month who didn't make it, the altitude was too much. I say another programme on BBC2 where there was an extreme endurance event on the mountain - even those superfit guys were really struggling with the altitude. Still I think it is a safe climb and the guide books says you don't need hiking boots, it seems to be altitude sickness and lack of muscle that gets people. Still I definitely want to do it (some hardwired male trait to conquer things I think) although my girlfriend isn't so keen!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| alan empty wrote: |
| I'm surprised that Simon has been criticised for cutting the rope - anyone know exactly what other climbers think he should have done? |
I remember this story first appearing in the climbing press. Simon was initially vilified because, in true journalistic fashion, the full details did not come out until later. The initial reports simply said that two guys went up a mountain, got into trouble and the uninjured guy cut the rope and walked down the mountain leaving his partner for dead. You can imagine what the climbing community thought of that scenario.
I got the impression that he was completely ostracised when he returned home (and given that he lived and breathed climbing and so would have drunk in climbers' pubs, spent every weekend on crags, etc that must have been tough).
Joe then started to set the record straight and it is partly for this reason that the book makes it abundantly clear that Joe does not blame him. The book also includes a section where Simon explains his perspective and the dilemma he faced.
In response to questions about two-way radios, these were not readily available at the time in any form that would be weight efficient. Given that these guys saved weight by taking minimum gas, the weight of industrial two way radios would never have entered their heads. Such radios are now used by climbers but not universally.
Simon did climb a bit more but I think that he decided that his heart was no longer in it whilst on a trip in Patagonia. Joe carried on climbing and had some more accidents (in one, he gave himself a nose job with his own ice axe while falling down an ice slope). He has written some other books that are well worth a read. They focus on climbing and, later, on paragliding but are essentially revealing insights into the mind of someone committed to risk-taking adventures who has to question his choices when faced with the growing list of dead friends.
The jinx of Joe Simpson continued when he took part in a film about the North Face of the Eiger. He and his partner retreated in the face of worsening conditions after half a day but a party higher up the face were not so fortunate and fell to their deaths.
Every climber I know feels that Joe's presence on a crag or mountain would make them very nervous.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Yeah, I think they were both impressive.
It's just that I can't even comprehend what Joe did whereas I merely couldn't do what Simon did!
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Apparently climbers will do anything to save weight. My brother recently had an accident in the Swiss Alps and he didn't have his mobile because he was didn't want the extra weight.
Bizarrely he took all of his medical kit and get this, when he got hit by a rock that badly split his leg open above the knee, he put Bonjela (for mouth ulcers) in the wound !! (I suppose it probably achieved the antiseptic effect . . . )
OK, he's in shock so the mistake is understandable (and funny) but why is he carrying Bonjela, when the weight of a mobile is considered excessive ??
He got hit by this rock at 9 am, having set off up the route at 3 am, finally getting rescued at 7pm in the evening. He had an epidural but was so tired he actually fell asleep during the operation.
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You know it makes sense.
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NickW, Bonjela Can have a numbing effect when put on a wound so may be thats the reason but not completely sure
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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All of which just goes to show that you really do have to be mad to go climbing 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Sad thing is I was given the book and never read it, put it on a shelf and promptly forgot about it, was end of film before I finally realised where I had heard the name before.
How do you start a vote?
I want to know if we believe he was right to cut the rope. Although as mentioned it probably saved their lives.
I was once part of a large group climbing in Kenya, we met two english people who had walked over mountain ranges from the Med down the West side to Cape Town, where they meant to fly back. After a few days of sitting around, resting and having beers in Cape Town, they decided they really didn't want to head home, so decided to Walk back up the East side. Who says english are excentric!!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I think in a lot of situations it is admirable to play the hero, but not always the best thing to do.
I understand Simon cutting the rope - he had to save himself, but what I do not understand is why Simon did not look for Joe on his way down the mountain. Why did he assume that he was dead?
I had the '39 Steps' feeling about Joe. His time was most definitely not up.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Simon was just physically and mentally shattered I would imagine. He just wouldn't have been thinking straight.
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| NickW wrote: |
Apparently climbers will do anything to save weight. My brother recently had an accident in the Swiss Alps and he didn't have his mobile because he was didn't want the extra weight.
Bizarrely he took all of his medical kit |
When i was doing more alpine climbing than i do now (ie more than none  ) mobile phones were not common place (or at least, not amongst student or recent ex-students). If they had been, i probably would have taken mine because that's the kind of guy I am, but i do feel that it would detract from the essence of the endeavour. The point about climbing is that on every climb you are committing to being self reliant. You head off up a rockface or into the hills knowing that if you get into trouble, it is only you and your partner that will get you home again. The curse of the mobile is that you can opt out at almost any time by calling in the cavalry. This may be sensible from a safety perspective but it does reduce the climb to an athletic exercise and reduces the emotional commitment.
Before people criticise me for endangering the lives of the rescue services by not taking a mobile, i take the opposite view. By taking a mobile you are actually saying that you expect to be able to call upon those services to help you out. The mobile will neither cause nor prevent the accident but may mean that you take more risks or do not assess the weather forcast quite so critically etc. One only has to speak to the Scottish mountain rescue to hear ridiculous tales of people ringing them from a hillside because they are bored of getting wet and want to get home.
These emotional and aesthetic considerations may be hard for non-climbers to understand but it is the very fact that climbing is more than a sport that has led to such a rich literary background. Pick up any climbing magazine and there will be more considered and philosophical articles than in a year's supply of skiing or mountain biking magazines or any other such magazine. I love those activities too, but climbing is something rather special to those that have caught the bug.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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We often dont realise the impact mobile phones have had on society they have completly changed how we work, communicate and interact with other people they have it seems also added a get out of jail almost free card to some of our riskier pass times good or bad, perhaps should be the subject of another thread.
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Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but Joe Simpson was the guest on Desert Island Discs a few weeks back. Sue Lawley's discussion with him was extremely interesting, but sadly this bit of BBC recording isn't held on their website as yet.
However, you can access this page which gives a bit of biographical info., and his choice of records - which was very unusual. He chose a couple of pieces that I think he classed as 'trance' music, which I found really powerful.
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| erica2004 wrote: |
| what I do not understand is why Simon did not look for Joe on his way down the mountain. Why did he assume that he was dead? |
My guess is that Simon knew that Joe had fallen down a crevasse, therefore did not follow that route down. They had already, by this stage, run out of food/fuel, so for Simon to divert his route to try and find a dead body probably would have cost him his own life.
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without knowing the actual layout of the mountain, it is difficult to say either way but i would not be surprised if Simon's vantage point was some distance away from, and probably some distance above, the crevasse. Getting there, without a rope and a companion, could have been very difficult even if he was fit, rested, well fed and had not spent a night on a mountainside with his hands gradually freezing solid...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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It is nearly 12 months since I last saw the film, I had forgotten the quote about Boney M, very amusing, imagine that being the last thing in your head as you drew your penultimate breath!
There are a few points which spring to mind after watching the film which could be useful to skiers.
1, If you go ski touring or ski mountaineering, frisk your ropemates for any bladed implements.
2, Secrete a spare 300m length of rope in your sac
3, Take a magnifying glass to melt snow with.
4, Design and patent a descender through which a knotted rope will pass.
5, Make sure the book and/or video is on your christmas present list.
6, Oh yes, make sure your partners are British for the best chances of survival
| Quote: |
| I know patriotism is old-fashioned, but does anyone else feel proud to be British after that? |
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A remarkable film. Simon stated that faced with the same situation, he would do exactly the same thing again (I think Joe also stated that if the situation was reversed, he would also). But I wonder.
In the book, there is more made of Richard's reluctance to leave their camp upon Simon's return due to his poor health and unfit state to travel. Undoubtedly this contributed to Joe's survival. Bearing in mind that they unexpectedly met up with Richard en route, his contribution through the coincidence takes on a real significance. Fate, eh?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| pistemeister wrote: |
2, Secrete a spare 300m length of rope in your sac
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God, you're going to be a very easily exhausted ski tourer/mountaineer with an extra 300 metres of rope in your pack!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
I found it strange that the film didn't show the 2 guys together at the end, during th interview. Does the book paint a picture that they were still mates? Do they still climb together.
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From interviews I have read.....After they had gone back to the mountain to film the documentary, being there again opened huge emotional scars and Simon had a breakdown from which unfortunately he has not fully recovered. Joe has gone on to do the lecture circuit. They both climb but I don't know if it was together.
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Has anyone yet read "Between A Rock And A Hard Place" yet? It's about an American climber who cut his own arm off as it was pinned under a rock and had trapped him there for three days. Apparently he had to break the bones first as his knife wouldn't have cut through them. He's climbing again now, with an artificial arm.
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You know it makes sense.
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He was interviewed the other day on Richard and Judy (not a regular watcher, understand, just had a couple of spare minutes and tuned in), and he comes accross as a very regular sort of bloke who can't understand the fuss. He just saw it as a life or death situation and recognised that the will to live was greater than the will to die. As he said "no choice really".
Hard to imagine though, isn't it?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Mark Hunter, yeah, I mean I know that,...but the idea of actually doing it... 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Does anyone one else think these climber chappies may be just the tiniest bit deranged?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Ian Hopkinson, see my comment about halfway down this page 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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skanky, can't imagine it really. I recall the guy saying that he was just hanging there when he remembered that he had a "pocket knife" in his pack and managed to extract it before doing the deed. I'd have been shaking that badly I'd have likely dropped the thing!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I've not read the book, but I have read an article written by the chap who cut his own arm off, and it nearly made me vomit (which takes a lot, as I've performed a few amputations of my own over the years). To say that he took out a pocket knife and cut his own arm off, underplays it a lot, anyone who is interested in hearing the gory details is welcome to PM me for them as good taste prevents me from writing them here.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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stackem evs, to start a poll you have to start a new topic and you have the option of including a poll and defining the questions. Once it's up and running, only moderators can add other options.
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I also read a newspaper article about the bloke cutting his arm off. The article was quite critical of him, going off on his own and not leaving a route, and claimed that he was an "attention seeker".
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Hell of a way to gain attention
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As in "throwing your limbs out of the pram"?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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He was on Radio 5 a few months back, maybe the interview is on their download archives?
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FAQ
