 Poster: A snowHead
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skimottaret, rjs, Some good points being made.
Both routes will have there pro's and cons. I understand BASI are developing the new courses using CSCF progressions. Effective progressions and drills that are known to work. BASI also have their own methods so it seems to make sense merging the two.
THE SSS APC is based pretty much on CSCF lines. Whether SSS keep current and in contact with CSCF - I don't know - but i know their Tutors are generally excellent.
BASI, a progressive forward thinking organisation, are in a continuous state of reviewing training, development and delivery methods. They have to be to keep up with the rest of the world's snowsports organisations and retain membership of ISIA. Continuous development is important - or they'll be left behind.
I believe keeping an open mind with the view to the methods employed by others, snowsports organisations included, is an invaluable tool in creating, modifying and improving our own methods. Why not take all the good bits and add them to a coach's/trainer's/instructors - organisations skills toolbox?
I'm a strong believer that you can learn something from anyone. A young ASSI once watched a much older instructor trying to achieve something in his personal development. After 30minutes or so, he said to the older guy: "Why don't you continue the drill but ski the next run as relaxed as possible." The much older instructor thought about it, and with an open mind followed the advice. The much older instructor achieved his aim. 
rjs, It's worth observing a BASI trainers delivery. A lot of SSS ASSI tutors have moved further up the BASI ladder after achieving SSS Tutor status.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| rjs, sorry our posts crossed while i was typing. My point being is that the BASI course shouldnt be a carbon copy of the canadian one, what would be the point of that when you can just take the canadian course. |
You can't take CSCF courses in Europe. Why bother making them different ?
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You said you are not a BASI member, so why is it an issue to you what they offer if you are not in the BASI training system. Take the SSS or canadian one then if you feel it is better suited for your needs.... What point are you arguing? |
I'm debating with someone who thinks that this is a "war" and is suggesting how best his side can "win".
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rjs, IIRC they can be taken in Nendaz and Andorra, maybe somewhere else in Switz too
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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You can't fight anything from the outside. IF SSS and SSE had stayed on board they could have influenced the course content - indeed their representatives were there at the meetings when the courses were being discussed earlier this year, representing their members. So you didn't need to be a member of BASI to have input. But now they've decided to go it alone they will have no input into the BASI courses. Instead they've ensured there are now two competing schemes in the UK - only one of which is recognised internationally. Anyone starting on the instructing ladder who thinks they may at some point want to work abroad will therefore go the BASI route. Anyone who coaches as well as instructs is going to do the BASI route because they'll have to do BASI Coach L1 for their ISIA anyway - why do two? The only people I can see sticking with the SSS/SSE scheme are those who are already in the system, and those who only coach, not instruct. If funding was the real motivator behind this, they don't seem to have thought it through...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Why bother making them different ?
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I think Snowshark and slikedges, answered that well above. I haven't seen the course content of CSCF or the proposed BASI one but i guess the Training director at BASI has his reasons and wishes to add something positive. I will let you know when i take the BASI APC in March..
"war" was a figurative word, no sides come out a winner in this mess from what i can see and once again the public has a very confusing set of competing bodies all offering slightly different training... The only good thing i can see is that SSE and SSS are collaborating and are proposing a UK wide award. But it has been mentioned by others that they struggled to cooperate in the past, so we shall see.
Carry on the debate, you always seem to have good points to make and are obviously a very knowledgable 
I dont have a "side" in this but i am BASI member and I applaud them actually trying to get things moving and implement the modernisation programme. I am guessing you are an SSE member. Are you really happy with the way they have handled the last 12 months.... The home nation organisations should adjust their roles with snowsports to best suit the public and their members. It is degenerating into all parties fighting over the commercial training opportunities....
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| It is degenerating into all parties fighting over the commercial training opportunities.... |
Without following the ins and outs, that's what I'd assumed!
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If anyone is interested here is a copy of the Modernisation Paper
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SSS needs a huge shake up then of its trainers as I have come across too many people over the last wee while who should have failed (can't do plough parallels and can hardly parallel) and others that should have passed - no standardisation and in most cases it was the same trainer involved.
I withdrew my membership from them last year after 17 years as a result of the above and a few other issues.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| roga, lower than the CI badge? |
The impression I got was that it was in some respects, particularly the teaching elements.
I am only reporting what I've been told, I have no experience of the BASI course myself whereas I have experience of the SSE CI/ASSI courses.
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| Initially we heard that level 1 was going to be pitched between CI and ASSI then it sounded like the ASSI level. perhaps after concerns by SSE. |
That was what I thought too but I have no direct experience of the BASI award so can't comment from experience.
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| All the parties signed up and paid for the Modernisation review, it wasnt BASI driving that from what i understand.. In the end although BASI was recognised as the obvious candidate the home nations dont want to lose the revenue. |
Yes, I'm sure that's a motivating factor for them.
It seems to me that root and branch reform is needed which perhaps incorporates SSE, SSS and SSW into SSGB and leaves us with the one body for the UK - at the moment the main problems seem to stem from the regionalised nature of the various bodies and the fact there's also a GB wide body as well - frankly though I don't know enough about it apart from the fact there's a right old mish mash and a right old mess when it comes to this particular issue.
| Spyderman wrote: |
| skimottaret wrote: |
| roga, lower than the CI badge? Initially we heard that level 1 was going to be pitched between CI and ASSI then it sounded like the ASSI level. perhaps after concerns by SSE. |
The BASI L1 level is being assessed at exactly the same level as SSS ASSI. That is straight from the horse's mouth. |
Which implies that the SSS course is of a lower level than the SSE course which is what people have told me but then that's only their opinion; one of the defining features of this whole debate is that nobody is able to fully define the similarities and differences between the awards. I recall it took me months to get any sort of answer to a question I posed about the differences between the SSS/SSE awards and the then similarities with BASI 3 in the SSS course. It seems to me that we're all saying we know this or that but in reality there is such a hell of a mish mash of awards that much of what we say is based on hearsay (like my comments) or guess work - that I'd suggest is indicative of the almighty mess we have at this level of qualification!
| beanie1 wrote: |
| You can't fight anything from the outside. IF SSS and SSE had stayed on board they could have influenced the course content - indeed their representatives were there at the meetings when the courses were being discussed earlier this year, representing their members. So you didn't need to be a member of BASI to have input. |
As far as I can ascertain SSE may have been at the meetings but in reality they were never on board - I don't think they ever had any real intention of dropping their courses (and unlike SSS they continued to run them as before throughout this period). In fact I rather think this development is precisely what SSE wanted from the start - whether they were right or wrong to want it is up to the individual but I'm convinced this is a situation they'll be happy with.
| Quote: |
| But now they've decided to go it alone they will have no input into the BASI courses. Instead they've ensured there are now two competing schemes in the UK - only one of which is recognised internationally. Anyone starting on the instructing ladder who thinks they may at some point want to work abroad will therefore go the BASI route. Anyone who coaches as well as instructs is going to do the BASI route because they'll have to do BASI Coach L1 for their ISIA anyway - why do two? The only people I can see sticking with the SSS/SSE scheme are those who are already in the system, and those who only coach, not instruct. If funding was the real motivator behind this, they don't seem to have thought it through... |
Well it's not as easy as that though, many people will go for whatever course is offered locally so it's also dependent on where and what courses are being held. Also remember that the SSE award typically takes longer to get than the SSS (or BASI) which can be done in a week - which model will SSS and SSE go for I wonder, if they can reach agreement at all (which I'm not sure they will to be honest) because I suspect that the format of the course will make a difference to take up as well.
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| roga wrote: |
| Also remember that the SSE award typically takes longer to get than the SSS (or BASI) which can be done in a week |
How long does it take to be assessed for a SSE ASSI qualification?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rob@rar, You need a club instructor award (2 days training) then shadow 20 hours, then do a two day training course at ASSI level, then a 1 day assesment. As the assessment is not training, it takes 4 days. However, this is done over a period of 1 year to 18 months.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rob@rar, To follow on from elbrus, the idea is/was that you have a 'mentor' coach that helps guide you towards for the assessment.
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rob@rar, what they say above basically.
Over the course of the year to 18 months you get a lot of coaching and training in addition, for example at Gloucester it's at least a couple of hours a week and they bring in people from the outside too, including SSE coaches who really put you through your paces. So it's 4 days training plus at least a year of coaching (probably something over 100 hours) plus the teaching.
Seems to produce some pretty decent ASSIs from what I've seen.
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You know it makes sense.
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Is the SSE ASSI normally followed at English dry slopes, and SSS at Scottish? Or not?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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beanie1, SSS certainly used to run courses in England but I'm not sure if it works the other way around. I think the format was slightly different too with the SSS being a 5 day course.
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Poster: A snowHead
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beanie1, IIRC SSS ran some courses in England but these were mostly on indoor snow rather than at dry slopes.
All the information has gone from the website now though and they're still pointing people towards BASI who as far as I remember took over all the SSS venues in England, perhaps Scotland too, for their Level 1 courses. As a result SSS have created a bit of a mess for themselves whereas SSE who never stopped their courses can carry on as usual.
david@mediacopy, yes the SSS course was a 5 day course - this is why I make the comments above about the differences between the SSS and SSE ASSIs.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Whether SSE. SSS or BASI level 1, the fact is we are still talking about basic, entry level ski instructor awards here. The truth is, none of these awards qualify people to be fully fledged ski teachers (that's a profession and would require allot more training). We seem to be splitting hairs as to who's BASIC ski instructors qualification is the highest! None of them, they are entry level. I think whether a SSE, SSS or level 1, they are all going to be able to introduce beginners to the basics of skiing, and instruct early intermediates on a dry slope. Beyond that, these facilities will have coaches and BASI level II to pick up the higher end lessons.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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elbrus, that might well be true, but to me it stills looks unnecessarily confusing.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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rob@rar, If you care that much about there being more than one instructor qualification system then you should avoid skiing in France.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rjs wrote: |
| rob@rar, If you care that much about there being more than one instructor qualification system then you should avoid skiing in France. |
Sorry, can't follow your logic 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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rob@rar, I tolally agree! I think one award at this level would be enough. I dont see the need for 3 awards that basically all qualify people to do the same thing. Beyond the SSE, SSS ad BASI there really is only 1 route ( for ski instructing) and thats the BASI level II. So why not start with one organsation that has a pathway all the way through?
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rob@rar, France has a similar system of "Club" instructor qualifications to those offered by SSE and SSS.
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| rjs wrote: |
| rob@rar, France has a similar system of "Club" instructor qualifications to those offered by SSE and SSS. |
OK, I didn't realise that. But I'm still not sure why I should avoid skiing there though?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| roga wrote: |
| Spyderman wrote: |
| skimottaret wrote: |
| roga, lower than the CI badge? Initially we heard that level 1 was going to be pitched between CI and ASSI then it sounded like the ASSI level. perhaps after concerns by SSE. |
The BASI L1 level is being assessed at exactly the same level as SSS ASSI. That is straight from the horse's mouth. |
Which implies that the SSS course is of a lower level than the SSE course |
Where did I imply that a SSS ASSI was a lower level than a SSE ASSI?
I have just returned from the final day of a BASI L1 course. The pass/fail criteria are exactly the same as that for L2 although the standard is lower. The difference is in L1 being at the Late Practice phase, rather than in L2 being at the Early aquired phase. BASI operate a 0-6 learning phase, where 0= haven't got a clue, through to 6 which is fully autonomous.
The problems started with the home nations in England with the dissatisfaction with the SSE system and SSS starting to offer their BASI Central Theme based ASSI system in England. It proved a huge success, to the point that most ASSI courses in the UK were being run under the SSS system. How the Home nations now expect to offer one unified ASSI is beyond me. SSE & SSS are so poles apart, that it just won't happen., plus the conditions of the new unified ASSI will restrict each nation to operating in it's own country also. Good for SSE, but very bad for SSS.
It has now reached the October renewal of subscriptions and SSE & SSS find that more people than expected have decided to renew their membership, not with them, but with BASI instead. This has caused big financial concerns about their future revenue.
It's a panic measure from the home nations, that will end in disaster.
BASI will push on with the L1 award and now market it much more strongly than up to now. BASI have a strong reputation and are financially very sound. The L1 offers a clear path, whereas now taking a home nation ASSI leads pretty much to a confused dead end.
The courses are the same cost. I know which one I will be advising my Trainees to take.
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| Spyderman wrote: |
The problems started with the home nations in England with the dissatisfaction with the SSE system and SSS starting to offer their BASI Central Theme based ASSI system in England. It proved a huge success, to the point that most ASSI courses in the UK were being run under the SSS system. How the Home nations now expect to offer one unified ASSI is beyond me. SSE & SSS are so poles apart, that it just won't happen., plus the conditions of the new unified ASSI will restrict each nation to operating in it's own country also. Good for SSE, but very bad for SSS.
It has now reached the October renewal of subscriptions and SSE & SSS find that more people than expected have decided to renew their membership, not with them, but with BASI instead. This has caused big financial concerns about their future revenue.
It's a panic measure from the home nations, that will end in disaster.
BASI will push on with the L1 award and now market it much more strongly than up to now. BASI have a strong reputation and are financially very sound. The L1 offers a clear path, whereas now taking a home nation ASSI leads pretty much to a confused dead end.
The courses are the same cost. I know which one I will be advising my Trainees to take. |
Which to me, as a candidate for one of these qualifications, simply proves my point about unnecessary confusion!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rob@rar, What do you want to do with a qualification ?
Do you want to help out at a club within the UK, teach groups here (or eventually abroad) or just want a badge ?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rjs wrote: |
rob@rar, What do you want to do with a qualification ?
Do you want to help out at a club within the UK, teach groups here (or eventually abroad) or just want a badge ? |
I would like to do some teaching in the UK (hopefully at an indoor slope), and eventually do some teaching abroad.
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| rjs wrote: |
rob@rar, What do you want to do with a qualification ?
Do you want to help out at a club within the UK, teach groups here (or eventually abroad) or just want a badge ? |
The BASI L1 caters for all 3 reasons, while the ASSI doesn't.
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You know it makes sense.
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rob@rar,
In which case, you might as well do BASI.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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rob@rar, Take BASI Level 1 then. The SSE press release from Friday recommends the same.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| beanie1 wrote: |
rob@rar,
In which case, you might as well do BASI. |
That's the conclusion I cam to, and have booked a place on a Level 1 course in December. I found that over the summer when all the changes were made, and then with this week's apparent retraction from the home nations organisations, it was difficult to work out what was the best option. The whole thing is opaque to say the least, or maybe I'm just especially stupid!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar,
Where are you doing the L1 course?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| beanie1 wrote: |
rob@rar,
Where are you doing the L1 course? |
Val d'Isere with ICE, first week of December.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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rob@rar, In my mind with the recent retractions by the Home Nations, it makes a decision even clearer to follow the BASI route.
Nice Christmas Present then 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Spyderman wrote: |
| The BASI L1 caters for all 3 reasons, while the ASSI doesn't. |
That may be your experience with your club, mine is different.
There was a SSE ASSI assessment at Castleford yesterday with 9 of the trainees from my club. None of them would have done a 5 day course.
I can see the place for both systems.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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rjs, what is the progression beyond ASSI?
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rob@rar, Several of them will go on to APC1, the rest probably won't do anything more.
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rjs, How many out of the 9 passed?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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elbrus, Don't know, I will find out tomorrow.
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rjs, Your statement didn't really address the same issues as mine. Mine highlighted the progression of qualifications that the Home Nations don't offer.
Yours is the convienience of taking a 1 day assessment, after the training course previously attended. L1 5 day courses in the UK operate over 3 weekdays and a weekend consecutively.
So are you saying that the only advantage to doing a SSE ASSI course is not having to take 3 days holiday? In my mind that's not a great reason.
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FAQ
