Test Technique

A snowHead

rjs, just trying to get a feel if this is going to take months or weeks of (expensive) training and is realistically within my abilities. I am debating whether or not to crack in on some more BASI modules straight away this season or use the TT as a yardstick to see if i am good enough to go for a BASI 2.....

for instance i have booked a training week in tignes but i havent yet booked the APM course in March which is pass/fail..

A snowHead

skimottaret, Sorry if you got confused, all figures stated refer to Eurotest. as for your query, here goes:-
Test technique
As you say the pass times are calculated on the time of the pacesetter. The pacesetters are classified according to their final result at the last "Challenge des Moniteurs" For instance in 2007, Greg Guignier was the winner and will have a coefficient of 0, those finishing afterwards will have a higher coefficient. This is based on time difference.
Eurotest
During the autumn pacesetters from all over europe and several WC skiers will do comparative timed runs and thus are classified into a pecking order and are again given a coefficient. On Eurotest day the pacesetters time will be adjusted by this coefficient to the level of 0 worldwide (not quite the same as 0 FIS points but often very similar). The pass rates are calculated on this time.

As far as pass rates on the TT go they are significantly higher than Eurotest but I don't have exact figures

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

LARGEZOOKEEPER, VERY useful thanks that clears up a lot

FYI information on the Eurotest from a training website

The Eurotest is a ski instructor test common to many of the big european alpine nations such as France, Italy and Austria. It stipulates that you must get within 18% of 0 FIS points if you are male and 24% if you are female. It is designed to be a test that is approximate to 100 FIS points.

•It is circa 140 -110 FIS points for males in most tests. You don't have to do it only if you skiied to under 80 FIS points.
•The average pass rate per test is circa 14%.

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skimottaret, Slalom technique isn't something you can just pick up over a 5 day course. How fast you will improve after this will depend on you.

I have not seen an APM course being run, but have watched plenty of people who had passed ISIA teaching and tech fail APC1. The TT standard is higher than APC1 pass standard.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

rjs, Not expecting to be a competent racer after 5 days and i am assuming this is going to take a few years...

It now sounds to me that i had it wrong initially in terms of what to do when and this thread has helped me prioritise a bit better... looks as though the way to go about this is to train on plastic, train on snow, train some more, pass APM, pass BASI 2 Tech, then sign up for TT

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

rob@rar, i have had some advice and am fairly confident that with some more training and time on snow should be able to get up to the mark in time but the area i am most concerned with and know the least about is the racing element hence all the questions.

As my long term goal is to teach in france the TT is important to me, if i cant pass it as the standard is very high (like the eurotest) there is little point in me continuing training towards grade 2. Bit of a chicken and egg situation but my feeling now is to go for the training and hope for the best...

After all it is free

So if the time reference point is say 50-60 FIS, a 20% allowance from that gives a pass mark of something like 180-190FIS. Having looked a bit more at the FIS lists (2007.8), the names I know of (again from the dry-slope rankings, as I have no experience of the snow-racing scene) at about that level are people like Peter Calvert and Simon Kilday. These are on the border of the top 50 of the Dryslope rankings and would be challenging for top 10 places at National races. While these kids/young men are not the real top drawer thay are some of the better in the country, and at a level I for one would be rash to dream of trying to reach - so while this is an entry qualification it certainly doesn't look like the "entry level qualification" easiski talks about.

More directly relevant to skimottaret (and maybe me, although this is more of an interest thing rather than career choice for me - at least until my company goes bust rolling eyes

), Bob Hales (I don't know him, but know of him) is 255*, although I assume that * means 20% loading, so say 210, and as I said above he's the best skier aged over 40 in the Dryslope rankings. A 210 listing would be mostly fail, but maybe a pass on a good day - so there's hope, except for the fact that he's THE BEST IN THE COUNTRY for his age, active and been racing and coaching for years.

skimottaret, I would say your biggest handicap at present (although of course I've not seen you ski Alpine Wink

) is lack of course experience. I've been training about twice a week for two years, albeit not particularly intensively, and only feel as if I've got psychologically sorted with the poles in the last couple of months. There's a huge difference in psyche between going around a pole (as in GS) and through a pole (as in SL) at full pelt - it takes quite a commitment to take the right line when your brain is screaming at you that this will hurt if you get it a bit wrong. That and the experience to make a race-oriented correction when things go wrong (which they will do), rather than the natural reaction of back-off and sort the problem before getting back to worrying about going fast. When you get back out to Mottaret I reckon you'll need to find some way of running gates for about an hour every day.

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You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

spyderjon, AIUI the MK race club is juniors only. There is the SnowClub though that I know a few adults train with at MK, but don't know how often that happens. There's probably a link from www.britski.org

A snowHead

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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

skimottaret, It comes back to the same thing again, though. You have a chance to train regularly and cheaply in the UK. This will help you hugely with your back-up training on snow. If you seriously want to pass your TT then this is what you need to do. Slalom is not like GS - much scarier on the whole as Graham N says.

I have an idea Idea

why don't you come to the Mondial and train with Pierre-Alain. He's bound to have peeps training for TT with him that week. He knows the system and can really advise you. You could also see on timing how far off you are. There - sorted!!! Razz

FWIW I reckon I could still pass a TT, although I'm about 5 secs off Eurotest these days (actually that means I'm still skiing at the same level I was in 1992, which isn't too bad for an old fart!) TT courses are not too difficult, and they're not on really steep slopes.

rob@rar, To train poles in resort just go to the ESF and join their race training. I'm sure they must do it every day in LA just as they do here and Val D. Very Happy

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easiski, dry slope training for me starts in 3 weeks and if i can manage will try to sort something out at MK where i am teaching part time...

I have already booked the first week in Tignes slalom training with Emma Carrick Anderson, and a week in mid jan with Phil Smith in Courchevel so i guess they will be the ones to tell me not to give up the day job wink

Also have the mountain safety course in jan and really looking forward to that Toofy Grin

also planning on trying to get into the ESF club in Mottaret as you suggest, my little one did her competition badge with them and the instructors were excellent.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

rob@rar, im not working next week but will chase this up when next there, once i have a few options will start a new thread as you suggest...

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rob@rar, skimottaret, I asked around about this at training thei morning. The information I got is:

1) No gates training at MK at present, because the surface is so sh!t. The kids' club has not been allowed gates since June.

2) There is no regular adults' training at MK. Looks like I was wrong about the Snowclub. There is occasional Masters' training there, but only on an ad hoc basis.

3) The TT now is a serious test. Starting from being a competent skier with no race experience it'll probably take 3-4 years hard work. My source knows people that have done it in a season, but only with a huge amount of effort and training, and they were "magic skiers" to start with. Aged maybe early '30s. My speculation on the equvalent dryslope standard was confirmed: to be reasonably sure of making the grade you need essentially to be getting regular overall podium finishes in regional races.

4) The Val d'Aosta test is MUCH easier. GS with pass mark +40% for men, +44% for women, relative to the pace setter. In the last one the pacesetter did it in about 53 seconds, and was obviously cruising it - would probably have gone about 45 seconds if going hard. Clearly there was someone dodgy they really wanted to get through Wink

(I think even I'd have managed that one without too much effort too).

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. It is only 2nd hand though (although should be reliable), so maybe you'll get better from the horse's mouth.

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GrahamN, what's wrong with the snow that they won't use gates at MK? Does it differ so much from Castleford?

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rob@rar, GrahamN, it could be that the slopes have been partitioned off during the summer for tobboganing and a lot of rails etc. put up for the kids during the school holidays.... also the grooming machine has been playing up and the slope hasnt been groomed regularily recently ..

The thing to consider about the TT is that it is the "Entry" level in France, however, the French entry level is going to be quite different from say, BASI or CSIA. One of the reasons the Eurotest exists is because of the numbers of very high level skiers moving through the French system, they need a way to cull them! This starts with the TT. Your "entry" level french ski instructor has probably spent the last 10years racing in the local ski club and skiing the whole mountain. They may not be refined, but they are probably very good all round skiers with racing experience. I would not underestimate it!

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

good thread all, thanks for all the input.

Definately has cleared up the question about how difficult the TT is and it is certainly not to be underestimated!! Very doubtful that a +45 year old will pass but it will be fun trying...

A snowHead

skimottaret,

If I were you I would aim to progress through the BASI system first, rather than going straight for the TT. Much more achievable if you don't have a racing background. I've just booked on the APM in March - did you say you're planning to do it too? Bit annoyed I have to pay the full course fee now though Evil or Very Mad

Course operated by BASI themselves normally only take a deposit and then the balance nearer the time.

A snowHead

beanie1, that is now the plan, BASI first then the TT..

I havent yet booked but am now thinking hard about booking the 10th of march APM in Sass Grund. Didnt apreciate full payment in advance was required. as you say most BASI courses are deposit first. might be because run by BASS.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

skimottaret,

Date is wrong on the BASI website - it's actually the 3rd March.

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yikes i wil have to check into that!! thanks for the tip (:

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

elbrus, Please don't make the mistake of blaming it all on the French. Exactly the same is true of Austria and Italy. They also want to restrict numbers, and although I do personally think that the bar could be slightly lower in the Eurotest, the need for a true test of technical ability is clear. I really fail to see why it would be OK for British Ski Teachers to have a lesser standard than our continental friends. Shocked

Have we no pride?

skimottaret, That sounds good - go for it. You can get there - just don't be afraid to make the improvements. Very Happy

rob@rar, You should have no problem on plastic. Very Happy

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easiski, I think you're getting over-defensive about the French system again. It looks to me as if elbrus was just explaining how the French and British come up with a different entry level, not knocking it, and also made no argument whatever about whether the end point should be different or lower. The French clearly have a large pool of good skiers from their kids' racing culture. We don't. Hence they can afford to restrict their entrants to people who'd have a significant chance of passing the Eurotest within their three year window, having given them instruction in how to teach and maybe knocking some edges off a basically competent technique. As we don't have that pool of experience we need a much lower entry level or we'd never train anyone, and our system has to involve teaching them to ski to a high level as well as teach.

Whether either system places enough emphasis on the teaching element is a completely different discussion Wink

.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

GrahamN, As I wrote earlier in this thread, the large number of people who train for the TT in the autumn do not have race backgrounds. You only have to look at them in comparison to the groups of kids from local clubs to see that. These prospective instructors are just prepared to put in the time to get good enough as adults.

The UCPA link that I posted described the entry standard to start training for the TT in terms of performance in the Chamois test. Club racers don't enter the Chamois in my experience, they stick to FFS and FIS races. If all trainees were ex-racers they would have had FFS points and the course description would ask for them.

After all it is free

rjs, yes I'd forgotten that point. I do wonder though what proportion of the successful entrants are ex-racers as opposed to the UCPA clientele? Also is the UCPA not principally an organisation aiming to get people from the cities into adventure experiences - in which case it will naturally be explaining its wares in terms of recreational skiers' experiences rather than FIS/FFS terms.

GrahamN, You may be right - but it's always the same - France is mentioned and never Austria or Italy. The bar is the same for every one. If you could see the pistes (and courses) that they run TTs on compared to the pistes that they used to run Cappas on, you'd see a big difference. The point is that many peeps (and not knocking it) in Britain see ski teaching as a sort of part-time hobby. In France it's seen as a career. This alone makes a big difference. Also, many of the new, young would-be ski teachers around here are not from the mountains at all - lots now come from towns and cities and have exactly the same probs as a Brit. rjs, is spot on with his last post. I have a 12 year-old who skis with me (trains at MK) who got a vermeil in slalom - OK in summer - last year, so if they're saying that's the level then it's certainly not unattainable.

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easiski, Not knocking it or criticising the system. Just stating some facts that people who ski teach part time (hobby) need to know that when entering the TT they are moving in to a professional strand. I know its the same for the Italians and even more so in Austria I believe

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