powder

A snowHead

I have a dislike about the monoski analogy, one, it does not allow independant but synchronous leg action wink

, and two, it often leads to too much "weight" (I hate that term) being put on the inside ski (as people try to lean/incline as if they were on a monoski).

Good monoskiing is all about inclination and rotation, good skiing is not about that combination!

Re the narrow width - it helps if you're on skinny skis, to create a single platform for floatation. BUT - even though you create a single platform, it is important to maintain independant leg action/activity. Beyond a certain ski width underfoot (varies for everyone) - say 85mm, the need for a narrow stance width diminishes. Most new schoolers and freeriders on skis wider than 90mm underfoot have a natural hip width stance these days!

Re evenly spread weight, we covered this in the 50:50 Myth thread, and unless you're in real bottomless powder, you still want to maintain a dominant outside ski.

And don't do anything suddenly, keep everything as smooth and progressive as possible!

A snowHead

MartinBell, I like this quote from that link:

There are variuos approaches to skiing powder, the easiest of which is, of course, to just buy some really fat skis and stop talking about it so much.

I may follow.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

veeeight, that makes a lot of sense. Never actually having been on a monoski I can't comment on details, just that the concept seemed a useful model when moving from piste-oriented habits. The wider freeride stance also rings true: for that pitch in Klosters I was on Legend 8000s and it was important to keep pretty much together to avoid going a-over-t while doing the splits, whereas for the LG pitches I was on Stockli DP Pros and a much wider stance worked (much to my surprise and relief), when I suddenly realised I'd not really switched out of slalom mode.

elbrus Wink

(thinks....)

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achilles, it may also be at the boot!

Did you try the trick of loosening the top buckle to allow a slightly wider range of motion?

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comprex, No. I wasn't aware of that as a way out. It was weird. Straight lining on the gentle slope, I was aware that my weight was far too far back - yet bringing weight forward just the slightest bit caused the dig in. In every other respect the Missions were great in the powder. I don't see it as a boot thing, though. The previous season I remember skiing on B3s - with nice even even balance, in deep snow, in the same boots.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

achilles, somehow I'm thinking of the B3 as also having a somewhat forward factory mounting position; perhaps there are more changes in the relative flex and surface area of the tips and tails between the two skis than first meets the eye? Let us know how it works out.

After all it is free

Some manufacturers now give two mounting points, often called something like "freestyle" and "freeride". The latter is slightly aft of the former.

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veeeight, never having tried a monoski, I'll take your word for it! I just thought my other mental image of imagine you're a mermaid would end up in nowt but ridicule Wink

I think we've discussed before about triggers not necessarily having to be strictly accurate, just to have enough significance to the user to bring about the desired result... I think next time there's some powder to play in I need to experiment with a little less independence of the legs and see what happens (as it's something I'd never considered before) - A over T no doubt Wink

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So, would you always set the binding to aft for powder skiing?
Mine have fore, centre, and back positions. Remain on centre at the moment...

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Probably another can of worms this, but I don't like the idea of too many positions for a binding mount.
It just seems like one more variable to complicate things. I prefer centre, centre, centre, and altho' I don't tend to check the hired-ski, I never mess with it, if I like it with the type of skiing I do, I like it, if not, it goes back to the shop.

achilles, I find that problem you described as weird. I have only demoed the ski on hardpack but they feel like boats...( in a good way ) so how the tips dive, I'll never know. If ever a shovel was designed to ride up on a bank of snow, it must be the Mission one..!!!

GordonFreeman, I think it's more a case of powder showing more clearly whether your bindings are set up for your stance. That said, a ski in powder such as we had at the MSB is planing - so maybe the centre of pressure of the snow acting on the ski can be different from when it is on firm snow.

You know it makes sense.

JT, I was a little non-plussed. I had a mental vision of easiski shouting at me to get my weight forward - but as soon as I did, just a fraction, there was an instant nose dig-in.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

achilles,

I have had that on skis that were too short for the conditions,. I took a 174 Recon out in deeper stuff ( only one they had ) and the only problem/falls I had all day were with the tips diving. In this case, I concluded that the skis were too short..and am pretty sure that was correct.

When I let the tips go on a 180 plus Fat ski on a steepish slope, they automatically rise up and out of the snow almost dictating the turn, which is exactly what I am looking for.

A snowHead

JT, I own 178s - so I don't think length is a problem. On steeper slopes, no straight lining, no real problem, though I did find I was rather tending to have my weight on my heels. Not uncomfortable though. The problem is really only pronounced on shallow slopes in deep powder.

[edit] That may of course tie in with your comment on "too short for the conditions" .[/edit]

A snowHead

JT, I am (as usual) with you on this. achilles, I am absolutely not convinced that moving your bindings 5-15 mm back or forwards will make a difference (or make you ski like a god). It sounds (I mean sounds and without having seen you ski that your basic stance is too far back. You should be able to (IMHO) condition your skis with weight back and forward in most instances without hauling your torso back and forwards. Missions are (to my dated view) quite wide, 78mm may not be wide by today's "standards" but they're quite wide enough to float in most soft snow.

As the estate agents say, "technique, technique, technique."

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I think something that helped me was standing taller - this gets your shoulders back slightly from the piste carving position (nicked from a Warren Smith DVD). This definately helped with the little shocks you get when off piste. The feet closer together thing was wierd for me as a couple of falls I had where when my tips crossed Laughing

then you watch some Skiporn and see all these skigods with their feet wide apart (and some skiing in the backseat) - go figure Puzzled

My problems come with skiing powder with obstacles ie in trees and around boulders. Since I have 2 ways of dealing with powder - 1) let rip and do gs style turns until my legs give up (2) old school rythm and bounce. Neither works particularly well with the tight, irregular spacing of trees and boulders - so does anyone have any tips for that? You know when you have to bust a turn in quick without much warning; also on a related note: stopping in powder - this I find quite difficult, especially when I've been hooning it. I either have to let my speed wash off across/up the slope or bust as gentle a hockey stop as I can and usually eat snow Embarassed

Any tips?

Cheers

BB

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David Murdoch, the Missions certainly float - and are 89mm wide at the mid section (just looked, I have them propped up against the wall of my office Cool

). I certainly used to suffer with weight too far back; easiski changed that so that I almost feel like I am skiing on the balls of my feet, normally - and that's transformed my safety and confidence on steep slopes. And I have not come across this problem with other skis. Don't come across the conditions all that often, of course. But my recollection of skiing on other skis such as Stockli Steepriders and Bandit B2s and B3s is that they did not bring about the same feeling.

But for the Missions, gentle slopes at relatively slow speeds are a problem in deep powder, with my current setup.

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DM, Where have you been? how is the chalet business..?

I think we are popping through the valley in Jan on our way to the Rhone and a few little gems there. Might even be up for some new AT boots.

bucking bronco, Laughing

been there.. Laughing

I think its all about the water in the snow. The more there is, the more it will trip up any sudden movement. I always try a gradually pressured stop.....by just tightening the turn more and more..or holding the position. It works in my head, anyway. I would say just hold the position of the knees...but that will be jumped on.. Laughing

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achilles, As it's only apparent when going straight on a gentle slope in deep powder, I wouldn't worry about it. Very Happy

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

easiski, yeah, I am beginning to think that. OTOH, visiting spyderjon is an excellent opportunity to have great coffee and biccies - and yak about skiing wink

After all it is free

achilles, I am certainly not going to make further comments on your skiing if you've been through the Easiski experience! I'm still not convinced, although I have an open mind that changing binding position will make that much differemce. I recall the \E\S\S binding that allowed you to do that very thing and frankly they made little difference.

JT, Hello, I've just been trying to work hard! Chalet business fine - work done and secret underground lair installed. Summer a little quieter than desired, but hopefully next winter will make up for it. How are you?

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JT, I agree, for most "normal" skiers, too much experimentation with the mounting point would probably be superfluous.

But I am told by the guys that do the 1080 spins (which I wouldn't have the foggiest idea how to do!) that for freestyle, bindings need to be mounted much more centrally than for "normal" skiing (i.e. actually making turns on the ground). Apparently it reduces the swing weight of the ski for spins.

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Martin Bell,

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SMALLZOOKEEPER, Excuse my ignorance, but what or who is a Zeppa angle? Is it a new term? I've never even heard it mentioned before. Shock

easiski, I'm glad you asked. I was wondering too. . . . Puzzled

You know it makes sense.

easiski, david@mediacopy, It's the internal angle of the base board in side you ski boot compared to the angle of the coller of the ski boot, often 14 degrees, but often needs changing to accomodate a tight achilles. This is the most significant reason for skiers not being able to get their weight forward, therefore suffering thigh burn and numb toes. Changing the angle alows the skier to hyper extend the achilles tendon, but will change the effectiveness of weighting tip and tail, thus the need to adjust the mounting point of the binding to compensate.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

While I believe all the theory and I'm sure that pro racer and freeskiers might want every tweak possible to improve perfomance/control I think I'm more of JT's view that humans have a general ability to adapt to what they are given within certain limits. It doesn't take long to tune in to skiing on a new pair of skis.

Most people don't need a driving lesson to drive an unfamiliar car or major fettling with a new pair of shoes in order to walk.

Obviously if something is causing physical problems it would need adjustment & something may make your life easier but which expert does the punter believe - Harb aligment, Zeppa angle tunging, campbell balancer, manusfacturer's norm....?

A snowHead

SMALLZOOKEEPER, I always thought that was called the ramp angle - thanks for putting me right. Very Happy

fatbob, I agree - and while Achilles could probably still come a little further forward, he's not back on his heels most of the time, and as the problem only appears in relatively unimportant conditions, I don't think it's any big deal.

A snowHead

easiski, Ramp angle will do, in fact it sounds better, lets stick to that.
fatbob, I have tried the tests with my boots, adding a 5mm wedge made a huge difference. i couldn't place my tip without adjusting my shoulders, way over the front of my feet, i then had to throw myself into the back seat to get the skis tails back down. I have been probably the most cynical on this site of these little bits of 'Disney Magic'. But am now 100%convinced.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

easiski, base board and ramp angle is the european term zeppa is the US term call it what you want Little Angel

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SMALLZOOKEEPER, got back with a responce whilst i was battling with the wifi

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CEM, Zeppa is Italian for 'heel wedge angle'! Get with it my boy!

http://www.wordreference.com/iten/zeppa

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SMALLZOOKEEPER, well there you go Laughing

, then the italians sailed across the atlantic to america, set up ski shops and use the term more often than it is used in ski shops this side of the pond

BTW when i checked your refernce it claims to be a wedge heel [as in a shoe with a wedge heel], but so as not to be labeled as a pedant the base board of most boots is somewhat wedge shaped

sounds like call my bluff for boot fitters this Laughing

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

CEM, The actual removeable 'Baseboard' is called a Zeppa. In conversations with those whom design boots, a big talking point right now is the 'Zeppa' angle. Things like; driving excessivley, swimming and the wearing of elevated heel shoes(men and women, just look at your runners!) are causing major fles issues. Lange started selling the Fluid/Exclusive ranges with zeppa wedges last year to try and compensate. The problems being the raising of the instep area. This is where most of the 'Head Scratching' is occuring in Italy right now. Trying to create a floating heel pocket, with adjustable 'Zeppa Angle' and adjustable instep. No prizes for who's got the push on this problem! Toofy Grin

After all it is free

SMALLZOOKEEPER, Zeppa-Disney-Italian? Laughing

*falls off chair from shock at some acceptance by SZK of Disney thoughts*

veeeight, I just got back from 'Training', 'Disneyland Paris!' Laughing

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Well start a new thread and tell us all about your new insights!

Help!!

powder

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