 Poster: A snowHead
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| abc wrote: |
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Many modern skis have a wide operating envelope re user ability with the manufacturers making too many overlapping models
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spyderjon, i would still be looking at a sligtly longer ski in a softer flex
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I'm always perplex by that issue. Is it better to go for a stiffer ski at shorter length, or better to go for a softer ski at longer length? What difference if any? Would the skier notice? |
abc, I disagree with CEM's comment for beginner's to high intermediate levels were high speed stability & off-piste float is not an issue as the shorter ski is easier to turn/manoeuvre etc - which helps to discourage that sneaky lifting of the inside ski. Even a user of this ability would definately say the shorter ski was easier to handle.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| spyderjon wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
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Many modern skis have a wide operating envelope re user ability with the manufacturers making too many overlapping models
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spyderjon, i would still be looking at a sligtly longer ski in a softer flex
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I'm always perplex by that issue. Is it better to go for a stiffer ski at shorter length, or better to go for a softer ski at longer length? What difference if any? Would the skier notice? |
abc, I disagree with CEM's comment for beginner's to high intermediate levels were high speed stability & off-piste float is not an issue as the shorter ski is easier to turn/manoeuvre etc - which helps to discourage that sneaky lifting of the inside ski. Even a user of this ability would definately say the shorter ski was easier to handle. |
Jon,
read the post,please..... what i said was i would look at a slightly longer ski for megamums build, the fact she is a beginner is neither here nor there in the context of the comment
remember you have a vested interest...you have a pair of skis to sell [which IMO are not suitable for the user ]
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from K2 website
Designed primarily for hard snow, the Burnin Luv also performs exceptionally on soft snow making it a great all-mountain ski. Combining a high performance sidecut and metal laminate construction, the Burnin Luv offers maximum performance and agility. Additionally, the new M1 system provides unmatched power and quickness to the ski that has been a proven winner year after year. Whether ripping the groomers, or cutting through crud in the trees, the Burnin Luv will perform on all terrains.
Dimensions 115/68/99
Performance 40% ungroomed / 60% groomed
Radius 13m @160
Construction Metal Laminate
Core Bioflex Fir/Spruce
Features MOD Technology, MOD Monic, Triaxial Braided
Binding Options K2/Marker M1 Piston 11.0 TC |
comment regarding beginners to high end intermediates
what i said was that people spend too much on skis IMO [20 years in this industry and a good few spent teaching the sport] there is no need to spend money on high end product if the user is not a high end user, yeh sure they might grow in to the ski eventually, but most skiers in the UK get 1 or 2 weeks a year, by the time they get the benefit from the ski it is out dated and technology has moved on
there are lots of good skis out there £300-£350 inc binding so why spend £400 + unless you want the prestige or are a more advanced user. i think a lot of people use a stiffer ski to compensate for poor technique...if you put the £300 ski on its edge and pressure it correctly it will not skid [pretty much whatever the snow conditions] sit back or lean in to the hill and the ski will break away...i have seen this so many times....the XXXX ski doesn't hold an edge, look at the test reports it scores 9.8 or similar out of 10, so where was the problem....50% technique 50% tuning of the ski, you of all people should know that one
the length issue is a great debate, i know i can ski around on a 165 slalom ski or a 191 big mountain ski, differnt skis different uses, the whole point is that people have read the marketing BS and have almost over compensated by going too short [ this is from past experience looking at the lengths of skis left on a rack at the end of the season, i think the balance is coming back and people are not buying their skis as short as they were 3 years ago
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Unless of course the skis are designed to be skied short (icelantics)
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kiwi1, no problem with that, but as you also know, people in this country over compensated when the shaped skis came out
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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CEM, very true.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Megamum, now look what you've started; a lot of men getting hot under the collar.... 
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| CEM wrote: |
| ....Jon,...read the post,please..... what i said was i would look at a slightly longer ski for megamums build, the fact she is a beginner is neither here nor there in the context of the comment |
CEM, Whilst I understand your comment we were actually talking about Megamum's specific requirements re her ability & stats, as she detailed in her opening post. I simply contend, based upon the experience of the friend that I detailed, that a 160cm BL is suitable for someone of Megamum's stats & ability. I'd be suprised if any instructor would put her on anything longer than 160cm which would be nose height, infact they'd probably suggest something shorter.
| CEM wrote: |
| ....remember you have a vested interest...you have a pair of skis to sell |
CEM  . Whilst one of the great things about this forum is the opportunity for us gearHeads to joust our opinions re kit etc - & everyone is entitled to their opinion, especially when they state their reasoning behind that opinion. However, I resent the implication that I'd try to push a non suitable product on to someone, especially one who has little experience in this matter, just for a quick buck. I'm in no hurry to sell the BL's which is why I haven't posted them on the Buy & Sell section even though Deb got her Pilgrims at the end of February! Just trying to help a fellow snowHead out with some good kit at the right price (£225 not the figures you quoted) which IMO was suitable.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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spyderjon, again not what was implied, but as you have pointed out you have a pair of skis to sell, in your opinion you think they are suitable, in my opinion i would not suggest that ski for the individual concerned, i am not trying to have a go but it did look like you were trying to ram said skis down megamums throat, prehaps not... if that is the case then sorry no ofence intended 
the lenght issue as i said before is always a contention...can a ski tell how tall you are?? i would suggest that it can only tell [these skis are intellegent  ] how much pressure is put through them, ie weight of the skier and the forces they can apply, now if you are average height for weight then it all works out nicely, but what about the short fat guy or the tall skinny one
maybe i am just one of the guys who gets concerned that people over spend on skis or boots due to marketing BS or high pressure sales, i know i never got commision for sales , but plenty i know get a hefty cut so it is in their interest to up sell
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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spyderjon, even if they are the wrong size 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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LARGEZOOKEEPER, but I could always sell them on
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Guys, Guys, calm down a little I appreciate all the comments. I like the idea of my own skis as I said, but I'm not going to rush into quick purchases - I won't have a use for anything before next year, and definitely won't buy anything before some of our experts on here have seen me ski. I'm also not a 'all the gear no idea' puchaser hence the research and you all know that I'm not going to splurge on anything that is more than I need for the nearish future particularly if it adds extra digits to the price. I think it would be useful for the MK experts next week to come back here with their comments after the event and see if their observations of my current expertise are at odds or agreement with the suggestions here.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| ....I'm also not a 'all the gear no idea' puchaser..... |
In that case you don't want to hang around in the Equipment section 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| CEM wrote: |
the lenght issue as i said before is always a contention...can a ski tell how tall you are?? i would suggest that it can only tell [these skis are intellegent ] how much pressure is put through them, ie weight of the skier and the forces they can apply, now if you are average height for weight then it all works out nicely, but what about the short fat guy or the tall skinny one
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Deja vu all over again
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Poster: A snowHead
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Yes, a ski can tell how tall you are if it knows how heavy you are, which it does.
Center of mass (gravity) is simply height times weight (COM = H x W). Change one, one other must change. You hold two the same and the third can't change.
A short fat guy have a lower center of mass than a tall skinny guy of the same weight. So the ski can tell: "Ooops, this guys is tall! He doesn't weight any more than the previous guy but he's putting so much torque on me I'm bend out of shape!"
Two skier having the same center of gravity but different height must weight differently. The taller one necessary skinnier than the short one. So the ski can indeed tell.
All of these are of a passive sense. When a skier is "working" the ski, a short guy can emulate a long lever arm by exagerate angulation. But other things being equal, a taller skier also have more room for angulation too.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| abc wrote: |
Yes, a ski can tell how tall you are if it knows how heavy you are, which it does.
Center of mass (gravity) is simply height times weight (COM = H x W). Change one, one other must change. You hold two the same and the third can't change.
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Oversimplified and inaccurate. A barbell can have the same CoM as a ball. I am not going to use 'gravity' in my responses. If your assertion was correct there would be no need for engineers to compute moment of inertia.
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A short fat guy have a lower center of mass than a tall skinny guy of the same weight. So the ski can tell: "Ooops, this guys is tall! He doesn't weight any more than the previous guy but he's putting so much torque on me I'm bend out of shape!"
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Granting your assumptions about their relative sizes, why would he DO that? Does he put more torque on his shoes as he walks and therefore needs longer shoes?
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Two skier having the same center of gravity but different height must weight differently. The taller one necessary skinnier than the short one. So the ski can indeed tell.
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Not true. I know a (female) skier who weighs the same as me, is 5 inches shorter, and has the CoM exactly the same distance off the ground. She has far longer legs than I do (and a swimming hall of fame entry).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Megamum, I'm sure no snowheads will argue with demo before you buy.
Get yourself to the summer ski tests. Some distis will sell of demo stock at a cheap price so you may be able to get a bargin at the test on next years skis after trying them.
Even if you don't get ex-demos you'll be able to pick up a deal I'm sure.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Megamum wrote: |
I wonder what they'll put me on at MK next week? - I've only ever properly skied the Volkl G3's so far - I used the same ski last year too.
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If MK's the same as Castleford, and being the same company I guess it will be, the only factor applied to choice of ski appears to be length of ski based on skier height. I think they have just one type - I have never been asked my experience level (a bit behind Megamum - struggling to get beyond snowploughs!) and the staff can't seem to agree on whether 150 or 160 is best for me - Tamworth gave me 155, so maybe that explains it!
??? For the friendly experts
I don't intend to buy skis, but I know when going abroad I may get a choice of rental ones, so I'd appreciate knowing a bit more about what's what in straightforward terms.
I am 5'6" but still rather heavier than I want to be (ok, quite a lot heavier - but still over 3st lighter than I have been  ). A ski-selling website I found had an online Q&A to find ski recommendations, and for my stats it recommended 180s - I DON'T think so! Anyway this led me to the conclusion that a heavier skier needs a stiffer ski so there is flexing of the ski and that longer ski = stiffer ski, is that right? What is 'sidecut'? What practical difference will sidecut/radius/ski width really make to novice/intermediate skiers?
I gather from other posts, that there is variation in flexibility of skis, so how do you tell how stiff a ski is, and what stiffness you want? Is it simply that the higher the recommended skier ability is, the stiffer the ski because the skier's likely to be faster and put more force into turns? I recently borrowed a friend's teenage daughter's skis, Atomic Race B9 - no idea of the figures as none were written on them. THey seemed rather narrower than the Xscape hire ones and were between 150 & 160 I'd say in length. I skied them pretty well, and had no problems getting them to turn. If anything I was a bit better than on Xs hire ones, but I couldn't describe the difference - it might have been I was just having a good day!
Of course the bottom line is that no ski in the world is going to compensate for my lack of skill/experience & any expert's going to be able to ski well on any old planks!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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comprex, I took my mountain bike to Castleford but they wouldn't let me take it on the slope! 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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NewSkier, this Ellis Brigham page has some useful info:
http://www.ellis-brigham.com/skis-choice.htm
And this Slush n Rubble one has a useful diagram on ski length. Ignore the ability levels at the top of the page - they are controversial at best
http://www.snowandrock.com/advice/buying_guides_skis.asp
I wouldn't say the info on either of those pages is gospel, but it's probably a reasonable initial rule of thumb. But of course, the best way to find out w whether you like a ski is to try it. FYI I would probably be a solid 7 heading to 8 on their scale but Advanced to Expert? Er no! Good intermediate, maybe. I'm also 5'6, 66 kg and my Fast Thangs are 155 and my Rosas are 168.
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eng_ch, scary - puts me way over the length I ski on height & weight alone.... 
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rpft me too. I know this is probably a really stupid question but bare with me, I know very little about this. What difference will it make if you are too heavy for your skis? Maybe I'm brilliant and just have the wrong size skis!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Using that chart and working up a bit to my weight, then adding a bit for ability I should be on something around 2m!!
Think I'll stick with my 165 SLs for now.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Megamum, To question one of your observations. I don't think that people 'seeing you ski' should make any part of your buying decision.
To 'own' or 'not to own' is a personal decision driven by either 'heart' ( I want) or 'head'( Is this cheaper than renting), or combinations thereof . You make that yourself.
'Which' ski is a personal thing , either about how you feel which is best for you ( testing of different models and sizes) or what you think may be best for you ( analysis, research and ability matching).
I would dismiss the views of anyone who said 'Having seen you ski in the flesh on a dry slope for a couple of hours then this ski in this size is exactly right for you' They cannot 'know' how you feel on that ski and that size, nor if they are better than you can they know precisely what an Advancing beginner's skis 'feel like' to the Advancing Beginner .. if they are 'not as competent as you' then smile sweetly and move on!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Megamum, after your go at MK arrange a return trip for one of the ski demo days and try out a couple of different type of skis
you may quickly figure out which ski you like, but my guess would be that as a reletive new comer you will "like" a certain "type" of ski (Slalom, carving, all mountain, etc) as opposed to specific model.
as other peeps have said be honest about your ability, tell them what terrain you like to ski and have a go at a few suggestions.
Whats the rush in buying? there will be good deals all summer long on ebay and the cheap internet wholesalers mentioned.
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I would say rent until you are convinced, and indeed have been told, that you are carving your turns. Pointless trying any till then as it is soooo differnt when you "get " the carving principle. IMHO there is only a small portion of 2,3,4,5,6...... week skiers that actually do carve.
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You know it makes sense.
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Frosty the Snowman,
I'd say that small percentage applies to most on the mountain..!!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I know a (female) skier who weighs the same as me, is 5 inches shorter, and has the CoM exactly the same distance off the ground.
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How do you know her CoM???
Or for that matter, your own.
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Poster: A snowHead
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abc, isn't that the first thing you ask a girl?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Me? No.
(hint: I proudly wear skirts in public)
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Thu 7-06-07 21:38; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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abc, don't take my word for it: take a lollipop handle down and handle up. The CoM has shifted but the height and weight are the same.
and the prosaic answer is: canoe club.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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comprex, but a human body isn't the shape of a lollipop. The bulk of the weight is already in the middle between the waist and the shoulder. There's only a limited variation on the distribution. While the difference in weight and height amoungst the pouplation is much greater.
simplistic? yes. over-simplification? I don't believe so. Inacurate it maybe, I'd say it's a fair approximation.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I've read through most of this, sorry if I skimmed over anything important.
A good ski for a woman, that you can find at bargain prices and is soft, forgiving, yet high performance enough to take you to your next level of skiing........
Volkl 5 Star.
Since they have changed it to the S5 the Five star which was its predecessor can be had for cheap and is still a good performer.
Check it out!
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Agenterre, You say that people seeing me ski shouldn't form part of a buying decision. Frosty the Snowman, says wait until I'm told that I'm carving my turns (that sounds good advice - i.e. that I'm starting to ski 'properly') - this also sounds as though it implies that someone has watched me.
Agenterre, my issue about with for some of the more experts from here seeing me ski has to do with finding out what stage I'm at. What is obvious is that there are some skis aimed at intermediates, some at experts, and I assume some at beginners. Now I'm not an expert, but some people here have suggested that intermediate might be within my grasp sometime soon. I think what I'm looking for is for someone knowledgeable, and who speaks English, and is unbiased to critically assess my skiing ability and let me know how far off intermediate I am/whether I am about to start carving my turns as FTS suggests or whether I am a hopeless case - though from what I gather from comments already made I've been told that this is not the case. Folks have already been good enough to indicate from my videos that I have definite potential - good arms, lean forwards, start/stop/control direction etc. Don't you think I'd be better able to pick a suitable ski if I knew where I'm at - I don't think I can assess my current ability in terms of beginner/intermediate etc. myself. Maybe when someone tells me I can change 'Novice coming through' to 'Intermediate coming through' on my sign off then that will indicate that it might be good for me to pick skis.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Megamum, proof positive that  debate is useless for formulating action unless a) all the answers are right or b) you only listen to one person.
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Megamum, There are videos here of your last skiing holiday.
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FAQ
. Think it was the length of my website link. Hopefully it's now changed.
