 Poster: A snowHead
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JT, andpam w, good answers, as a climber I think of going off piste as more like mountaineering than normal snowboarding, especially from a continious assesment of risk point of view. From this background I also find snowsports as a bit of a conundrum: on one hand very safety concious i.e. wearing helmets, using guides etc. OTOH coming from winter mountaineering I find the lack of knowledge on avalanches, the effect of terrain, the kit people take with them/wear and the recklessness of some towards other slope users extremely frightening.
wrt the original point atm I don't consider myself technically good enough nor experienced enough to take to the more adventrous off piste (not nessecerilary (sp?) technically hard but that which may take a walk to get to/from and has the possiblity of not seeing anyone else for quite some time) without a guide. I know that it's a continious learning process and one can never know everything but my point of view is that currently I need a guide to stay safe. However, as I progress there is no way I would drop into anything without at least a map and compass and the knowledge of how to use them in good and bad visability, it is possible to place yourself on a map in very poor visability using aspect of slope etc, however, it takes a lot of practise! Of course this is in addition to avvy kit, crevase rescue kit if going on a glacier, some rudimentay climbing stuff if moving over steep ground.
Just thinking about this reminds me of how much there is to know if you want to stay safe in the mountains, however, it's definately worth it 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Swirly,
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Of course this is in addition to avvy kit, crevase rescue kit if going on a glacier, some rudimentay climbing stuff
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....... plus some snowshoes .....?
..... but definitely NOT that well known & much loved brand ...... 'Effing Snow-Shoes' ..... 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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BernardC, I'd prefer a helicopter, next time 'Effing heap o' shoite snow-shoes" (TM) might be replaced by an axe and some sort of extreme weight-loss program. Or at least extensively tested in the shop beforehand now I'm aware of the limitations.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| I was just thinking whilst out milking (no connection though). Lots of you ski off-piste. We have spoken about on-piste maps before, but do you have maps that cover off-piste areas too. I mean when you launch yourselves down a steep off piste slope how do you know that you're not heading towards towards an edge, a long drop off, or crevasse. I can't see that an equivalent to an O/S map would exactly serve when you have all the features covered with n metres of snow. Do you get off-piste maps or are there odd signs here and there for you? Also, how do you know that you're going to be able to get down again to an area that will take you home? |
Megamum... depends where you are and what sort of off-piste you are talking about I guess...
In australia there is off-piste inside the resort ... which is patrolled and should be reasonably safe... also pretty hard to get lost.... resort map will be fine...
Then there is the front country off-piste skiing.... you might get by without taking the map but should have it with you and have looked at where you are going...
and then there is the back-country off-piste skiing..... go there without a decent topo map and a good idea what you are up to and you are likely to join those who have had their skulls found years later, or their bodies found in spring in their snow cave(where they likely suffocated), or those who died of hypothermia within a short distance of a safety hut.... or or or....
My brother spent a few years regularly setting up searches for those who thought they would "just pop up that mountain there" from a popular resort... a fair number ended up trapped in the same valley... which is a sort of trap...
and there is a great story here about experienced back country off-piste skiers who made some mistakes (ummm tent is a good idea) and came very close to paying the ultimate price except they also did some stuff right and some other brave souls set out into the mountains in a storm in the middle of the night to save their sorry butts!
http://forum.ski.com.au/scripts/ultimatebboard/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000042
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Swirly, .... 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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little tiger,
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front country off-piste
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You made that up!
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SMALLZOOKEEPER,
No that is its name (although may be a nickname that someone made up originally)...
It describes areas that can be lift accessed or accessed easily from roads...
Eg at home I would ski back down to the road OUTSIDE the resort after having done a car shuffle with friends.
This is NOT backcountry... neither is it inbounds... I am using the resort lift to get most of my altitude little climbing needed...
Also the areas immediately behind the resort or from the road I would exit that ski onto where the climbs are close would be front country - no large amounts of gear etc required can eb easily day accessed...
The BACKCOUNTRY you may spend a day getting into the area you want to ski... and a day getting out... closest people are therefore many hours travel away... sprain an ankle or a knee here and you want good folks around to help... it is a LONG way to crawl home... hypothermia may mean death(and has) as there is no rapid access to any help... go with folks that know their stuff... read the story that comes out in the above link... and those guys were VERY experienced... just had heavy packs, got cocky, had no tents only bivvy bags, and one had been sick recently (hypothermia here we come?), also maybe dehydration played a part...
I have done some front country off piste on my tele skis with skins... I am still unsure about my ability to ski long distances with a fully loaded pack (tent,stove etc etc etc) so I have not yet done any back country.. although my friends at home say they will get me into it once I return...
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To answer the question - yes if touring but generally no if skiing lift served off piste.
However this April in VDI a compass was useful to time the spring snow conditions and avoid aspects still likely to be frozen. It was also useful to avoid the slopes later in the day that were becoming dangerously saturated after many hours in the sun.
Having a proper map is nevertheless interesting to check out where you've been !
Its also useful to check heights, interesting details, names etc. Many of the french maps show the intinery routes and are worth having on piste because they accurately represent distance, relationship and pitch.
Even the maps in the pre 1996 Good Ski Guide are a much better representation than the diagrammtic piste maps given away free in resorts.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I belive the US term for "front country" is "sidecountry" i.e. out of ski area bounds but readily accessed or traversed to from lift served points at both top and bottom. A lot of what many European skiers understand by "off-piste" would meet this definition including noodling around outside marker poles. I have often heard the latter used analogously to "ungroomed" while of course it may encompass "multi day high alpine tour", such that as a catch all term it has very little meaning in capturing the varying degrees of equpiment, preparation and commitment required.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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little tiger, Sidecountry shipmate.  Frontcountry is the name given, by guys, to the part of the body you urinate from.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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ah but then aussies don't mind actually calling things by their names... we don't need silly euphemisms for body parts, toilets etc
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| little tiger wrote: |
| .. we don't need silly euphemisms for....... toilets etc |
Hmm.
| Thunder, Flush and Thomas Crapper wrote: |
| Somehow the object and place in which people excrete has always been thought of as offensive, and we have no simple direct words for them. Both lavatory and toilet originally meant somewhere to wash; a water-closet is a cupboard or small room with a water supply. |
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Poster: A snowHead
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That would be why we call it a LOO or CRAPPER ... 
In samoan it is a falelikiki... kiki being samoan for NO 2(does that pass the filter?) and fale - house
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| http://www.aussieslang.com/Search/qsearch.asp wrote: |
# dunny
noun:- toilet or lavatory, originally an outside toilet or outhouse, now a generic term for the toilet regardless of location. Sometimes referred to as the Thunder Box! Different from the bathroom which really does contain a bath or shower for cleaning your personage.
# loo
noun:- toilet
# outhouse
noun:- toilet, dunny. Before modern sewage, the toilet was in it's own little "house" in the backyard. Hence out house.
# thunder box
noun:- dunny, toilet.
# toot
noun:- toilet |
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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little tiger, a lot of Samoan rugby players are built like brick falelikikis.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Fortunately there are not too many dangerous wild animals when ski-touring in Switzerland. France, OTOH, has wolves. 
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| laundryman wrote: |
| little tiger, a lot of Samoan rugby players are built like brick falelikikis. |
tell me about it... I am probably related to about half of them as everyone over there seems to be related!
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| achilles wrote: |
| Fortunately there are not too many dangerous wild animals when ski-touring in Switzerland. France, OTOH, has wolves. |
Do those wolves strictly observe national boundaries though?
I'd hate to bump into one in Switzerland near the French border and get into a debate with it by argueing that it must be lost and therefore shouldn't be chewing my leg if it turns out that actually they do go on tour every now and then.
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FenlandSkier, I've heard the ones in the Portes du Soliel have France only lift passes.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| Frontcountry just sounds SHITE and doesn't work on any level. Front of what? |
Front of the backcountry...
as i described with areas that have road access... ie if you can drive close by it is front country... forget where the lifts are... so the very popular area up the road from my home resort where you will find a few cars every weekend is ALL front country... you can reach it readily in a few hours of hiking skiing... both sides of the valley... one side you MAY be able to access from the resort lift... the other you can't... but it is still front country...
backcountry you will access some of from these same access points.. just you are going to be hiking a LOT longer and need very different gear...
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achilles, I have kissed a wolf  well actually he kissed me as his tongue went through the fence
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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little tiger, What happens when you're facing the Opposite direction after 5 days in the Backcountry having started in the Frontcountry, does the Frontcountry then become the Backcountry and the direction your facing become the Frontcountry even though you're in Backcountry heading to the Frontcountry that started off as the Backcountry? 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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little tiger, So all roads lead to the Frontcountry? Here in Cham' we have alot of Frontcountry, at the Side of the Road. So we start at the Sidecountry and then, if our navigation skills permit, head off to the Backcountry for a spot of Wolf Worrying.
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You know it makes sense.
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brian
brian
Guest
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Poster: A snowHead
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Front, side, back......?? FFS...!!! I'll need a map to know where I am supposed to be..!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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slikedges, most people on big boats (i.e. not sailing dinghies) would have lifejackets in a locker somewhere, but put them on only when risk was perceived to be high - for example at night, or in fog. However, if you get dumped into a cold sea, miles from anywhere, it will just make it easier for any rescuers to find your corpse. If someone falls overboard in bad weather it takes a lot skill and some luck to get them back on board again; I can do it in an exercise, but I'm not sure I could do it for real. If a boat goes down in bad weather, the whole business of launching a life raft, and getting into the damn thing, and then cutting the umbilical cord before the boat sinks requires skill and strength. There are Sea Survival courses, but most recreational sailors don't do them. As for position indicating beacons, yes they've been around for ages. A well equipped boat will have one and you hope that, if you did have to launch a liferaft in a storm in the dark you'd remember to get it into the raft with you (the only ones I'm familiar with are not the sort of thing you could wear round your neck). A well organised boat has a grab bag to put in the raft. But it all depends on everyone knowing what to do, where things are, not panicking, etc etc. Easier said than done.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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pam w,
get him to look at the stories of some of the yachts went down or got into trouble in that horrid sydney hobart year
I'm not sure about those guys we keep getting out of the southern ocean...
but i seem to recall at least 1 sydney hobart with unexpectedly bad conditions and boats unable to get back to eden so despite being close to land (ish) they were in deep doo doos
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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brian, It is exactly that. BC vs FS. Frontside is a phrase coined for the piste or park, an area prepared for skiing. Backcountry in this instance has been used to refer to an area not prepared for skiing. Hense for the last few years when buying skis, you have been asked to quote your percentage 'Front to Back' ie 50-50, meaning sking 50% Frontside and 50% Backcountry. The Sidecountry thing has been recently added by the real Backcountry skiers/Ski Industry whom belive that skiing off-piste near prepared slopes and calling it 'Backcountry', discredidts them/their product, and have coined the new 'Term', 'Sidecountry. To me it makes perfect sense, i have however never heard, before today, the term 'Frontcountry' and suspect our little tiger has made a 'Slip of the Finger'. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, check the links... and i only posted a couple... it has been used on that forum for years
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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pam w, When I went to sea on the Ministry research vessels we did the merchant navy sea survival course - it makes me feel much more confident if I'm on a ship with life rafts and survival gear. I've done all the liferaft, lifejacket, man overboard etc. survival training. Just for interest I've also done the OPITO helicopter, BA and smokey hole & firefighting training too. You know - the course where they dunk you upside down in the helicopter. Also did survival and liferaft training there too.
However, as you point out not everyone gets the chance to do the learning.
Still if anyones ever on the same sinking ship as me you could do worse than stick with me!!
They don't call me Megamum for nothing you know
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| Megamum wrote: |
| I've done all the liferaft, lifejacket, man overboard etc. survival training. Just for interest I've also done the OPITO helicopter, BA and smokey hole & firefighting training too. You know - the course where they dunk you upside down in the helicopter. Also did survival and liferaft training there too. |
Blimey, the HSE requirements to work near water troughs are a bit strong aren't they? 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I didn't see this thread when it came out because I was very busy at the time. But here is my penny-worth.
1:25,000 is the standard map for off-piste and is always available in the resort at bookshops and sometimes ski equipment shops. I have off-piste guide books for Monte Rosa (Zermatt,etc), Arlberg (St Anton etc), Trois Vallee (Val Thorens etc), Val d'Isere/Tignes and Chamonix. I expect there are others. However I only rarely do a route just from seeing it in the book and on the map.
Most often I will see something from a lift or on the mountain and look at the map to find out how to get to it or to make sure I can still find it when I get there. Usually I have already been in the area with a guide (especially if it is in another valley) or am using the map as a back-up going on a route I have been before with a guide or people who knew it. And of course you just don't ski off piste alone - that would be stupid.
But I would play very safe with anything steep or threatened by slopes above or on days with higher avalanche risk. And until you know much more about it don't ever just go off-piste assuming it is safe, even if there are lots of tracks (avalanche risk on a slope can change in half an hour).
I have been on courses about avalanche danger and skied mostly off-piste for many years, but I know that I don't know much compared to the guides (and I've been in an avalanche when skiing with a guide).
Itineraries are usually pistes which have been declassified to save the resort from litigation (they then don't have to be groomed though they are avalanche patrolled) Consequently they are much skied and not really quite proper off-piste.
Most European off-piste can be accessed direct from lifts or by a short climb with skis on your shoulders (perhaps 10 minutes, perhaps an hour) or climbing with skins under your skis. (If you find you actually enjoy the latter you will want to get into TOURING.)
There is no such thing as side country or back country or out-of bounds or in-bounds in Europe.
For most people (and for me) the best way to ski off-piste is with a guide - though, like ski school, it is expensive. Some ski schools do off-piste groups and some resorts (eg Val d'Isere) have independent guiding companies who will make up groups of similar standard (which is much cheaper than hiring your own guide unless you are a group of 5 or 6). Many also teach off-piste technique (though it isn't essentially different from on-piste techniqhe except in some difficult snow conditions which you shouldn't try at first anyway). The main thing to remember is to weight your skis evenly. And, except in very light powder on a firm base, you won't get away with bad technique in the way you often can on piste.
Guides will lend you an avalanche transciever.
If you decideyou like it and want to go further with off-piste then you should buy a back-pack with straps to attach skis + avalanche transciever, shovel and probe.
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FAQ
told you you need navigation skills to do it! 
s thing of talking out of our backsides 