 Poster: A snowHead
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| Whitegold wrote: |
There has not been any fear in F1 for at least a decade |
Not from your armchair at least 
They drive waaaay beyond the point where you or I would have backed off long ago due to fear. The passive safety is much higher than in previous years, so they just push the limits of the car even further. The ones who did that regardless 10 years or more ago often died in the process.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Nope- no idea what you're talking about im bad-as$ me! 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Wear The Fox Hat, No-one knows, but some still do it, maybe they're just determined. It really doesn't matter if they still do skiing, good on them.
It is absolutely ridiculous to tell people who are paralysed with fear to face their fear and get on with it. It's totally counter-productive. It's assuming that they're exaggerating their fear in the first place. A little fear is healthy, but paralytic fear is a problem. However, by working on gently pushing the envelope a bit at a time you can help them to overcome it. (They need a lot of determination too). It takes a long time.
As a matter of general principal, most women are more afraid than most men. Most men who are afraid won't admit it. Mothers are much more afraid than anyone else. this seems to be largely geneological and biological. (Women need to be around to look after house and home and ankle biters etc.) Most women flight, and most men fight. It's not a 100% thing, but pretty common.
Notice all the peeps who are poo-pooing Little Tiger and Megamum, and advising to "just do it", "face the fear" or whatever are men!!! 
You can't be brave if you're not actually afraid. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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easiski,
| Quote: |
| Most women flight, and most men fight. It's not a 100% thing, but pretty common. |
There's some rough families around here and it's a bit different - most of the women fight, and most of the men just get pissed.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Easiski et al are right about it being counter-productive telling some to face their fear. Even with fears that are totally irrational - try telling a 6 year old girl to stop freaking out about a moth on the bedroom ceiling!
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I'm not afraid to admit that I have been scared by some slopes, although none since successfully navigating that first red in Val Thorens last season... I now know that it might be slow, but I can get down and remain in control (thanks Euan!) For me this was about impressing in the neurons the knowledge that to carry on with the weight transfer on the outside ski when you fear you will lose control is the key. Now I have much to learn and better turns to make, but I will always be able to come back to that crutch. 
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Megamum, A slight tangent but Kramer 's post struck a chord. I started learning at 50, I had no real 'fear of skiing' per se but suffered awfully from a fear of heights and drop-offs ( this may have contributed in part to my starting skiing so late in life) - I would feel faint anywhere near a steep slope. This thread reminded me of the first time I looked up the Chevannes blue in Les Gets and thought to myself 'Never, it's too steep, get me off this mountain'; I kept my eyes shut or looked at the floor on chairs/gondolas.
I never mentioned it to people I'm with; my SO never pushed me; people who understood (like my instructor) never mentioned it or questioned me. However, 2 years later I have all but overcome that fear - or rather it's disappeared. I enjoy the mountain views from chairs and gondolas and my only remaining fear is the 'Drops' off 'Cat Tracks' and roads , irrational but still there.
My only advice, don't dwell on it, conquer it your own way and stay within your own 'comfort zone'
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I think a little bit of fear is part of the attraction. It's a bit more primal than making an important presentation. As others have said, what you get fearful of changes as your technique improves.
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One big difference I've found between an important presentation and skiing is that it's ok to get pissed before the presentation, but that's something I would never do before skiing.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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You will always have fear, the momment you conquer one fear, you replace it with another, steeps, speed etc, it's evolution.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I started skiing around 5 years ago and have developed from a very tentative beginner who took an age to get down the easiest of blue slopes, and was always last in our ski group, to today where I'm regularly accused of 'skiing far too fast' and 'having no fear' by my ski buddies. Of course, in my view I ski well within my limits and am very safety conscious on the piste.
It took a couple of things to change me and it didn't happen overnight, I was very lucky to meet a very good skier in Courchevel who took me under his wing and taught me technique, and in parallel encouraged me to 'learn to love the hill'. The technique quickly helped on easier slopes and he even took me down steep & icy pistes in 'follow me' mode which demonstrated that I could indeed cope with the terrain.
However, the 'learn to love the hill' took considerably longer to become engrained. The basic principle is that down the piste / slope / fall line = safety. The more weight you can get down the hill, over your edges the better, thats what gives you control. This is of course the complete opposite of what your brain is trying to tell you as a beginner - it thinks that being nearer the surface of the slope i.e. up hill means you have less distance to fall and that seems like a good idea. Unfortunately, it just doesn't work while you're on skis.
I worked at this on easier slopes and tested myself traversing steeper & icier slopes until - very luckily for me - it just clicked in my brain - I'd learned to love the hill and the safety it promised. Nowadays I rarely fall, even on difficult terrain, and it's not for the want of pushing myself or being adventurous. When I do fall I can now pinpoint why and it's usually tiredness or a mistake due to lack of concentration.
I'd encourage lots of practice of what instructors teach you on easy pistes, with the occasional challenge to yourself by going out with more experienced friends on safe terrain, or alternatively go with an organised group or hire a guide for a morning / day.
After all of the above, my final thought is to remember to enjoy yourself, that's what skiing gives me, the chance to be standing at the top of a mountain, looking over an awesome view, or sitting in a beautiful piste side cafe with a hot chocolate and some great friends - what could be better in life ........
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| Arno wrote: |
| Spyderman wrote: |
| Doug Coombs, Patrick Vallencent, Sylvain Suddain. RIP |
 listing dead skiers is a great way of boosting someone's confidence |
Erm, I spoke to Sylvain Saudan recently so unless he has died of old age in his bed in the last couple of months rumours of his death have been greatly exaggerated.. Vallençant didn't die skiing and Coombs died trying to save a friend's life. So maybe these were not the best examples.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
uktrailmonster My question I asked at the time was:
"If someone is regularly and frequently paralyzed by fear, then where does the enjoyment come from in doing the sport?" |
Fox, first off, in the conversation over at Epic you're referring to, the person (Little Tiger) who was discussing her past encounters with paralytic fear did not classify it as "regular and frequent", so your question didn't really apply to the situation. Her comments were on what happens to some when they hit upper thresholds of fear, and strategies for moving those thresholds higher. And the suggestions and strategies she put forth for doing so were VERY sound.
It's a shame she was booted from Epic for it. No, more accurately, it was IDIOTIC. One only has to look at the photos of what she's able to ski confidently now to see there was profound value contained in the message she was trying to share. She's obviously come far in this sport. She's walking (sliding) testimony that those who struggle with paralytic fear CAN become high level skiers. And she can show them how it's done,,, they only need have the good sense to listen.
As to where the enjoyment comes from, I'm sure those who struggle with paralytic fear yet still harbor a deep passion for the sport, as those like Little Tiger do, could write you a book.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Thu 1-02-07 22:29; edited 2 times in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| Whitegold wrote: |
There has not been any fear in F1 for at least a decade |
Not from your armchair at least
They drive waaaay beyond the point where you or I would have backed off long ago due to fear. The passive safety is much higher than in previous years, so they just push the limits of the car even further. The ones who did that regardless 10 years or more ago often died in the process. |
F1 is mostly about repetitive driving.
The same cars with the same technology on the same short tracks.
Round and round in circles.
Going a little bit faster, or a little bit smoother, each time.
All that stuff about superhuman skills in F1 is mostly hype.
It sexes up the sport. So they can charge higher prices.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Aren't you all wonderful people - thanks for sharing - it does help to know that others have been there.
No, I don't think my fear of the slope is the paralytic sort. I've been there twice - once at the top of a 12' gantry being asked to jump into a deep pool on a cold water sea survival course - In the finish I did it because the 2 folk either side of me went and I didn't want to be left there alone, but I was that terrified that I was paralysed when I hit the water and had it not have been for a life jacket and the instructors with a boat hook I would have been in real problems from a 'drowning' perspective - and I'm a good swimmer. I was perfectly happy on another course to do the 'upside-down' in a helicopter dunk tank, and BA through a pitch black smoky hole, but I always opted to never jump again - I can't even jump off a chair now. I can stand on a high thing and look down, but I won't jump. The other time was when I went into hospital for a small emergency op - I've always had an irrational fear of hospitals and not even 2 pre-meds got the better of me - to say I climbed the walls was an understatement. So I think I understand the paralytic fear.
Incidentally I am perfectly happy to stand on my hind legs in front of 300 people and spout forth, and I never had the slightest doubt that I could give birth (both mine were born at home for obvious reasons given the above statements) too.
It's the fear I get when I ride my big horse - whilst I have control I'm fine, but he is stronger than me and unpredictable, even in my enclosed field if he suddenly takes off and gets his head I rapidly do the fear thing. This I'm sure is quite irrational - I've ridden horses for about 30+ years and know what I'm doing and he's never taken off without me ultimately winning - yet I'm scared of him doing it (and I bet the knows it too!!). It's the fear I get when that blasted dangly ski lift swings - though I suppose I did eventually talk myself onto it and went on it by myself. Perhaps it IS a technical thing that can be overcome by technique - maybe I am scared of something until I find I can actually do it (I went on the chair lift several times - without skis though, once I'd cracked it). Maybe I'm a control freak - I like to be in control. Dangling on a lift I'm not in control - so it is more fearful, I'm not a good car passenger - ask DH! - where's that imaginary break pedal, I'm not keen on public transport - I'm not in control. At the top of the slope maybe I'm scared because I'm not in control - hopefully I can add 'yet' - I suppose I have to put my faith in my instructor as I do in the bus driver - I did find useful the post by IncogSkiSno, and the notion that a good instructor can probably get you down somehow even if its not ‘by the book’. If my resort is open I can get the same instructor as last year which would be good – he got me down the slope last year and its more than I’d ever done before. It’s the chicken and egg though – I have to get over the ‘I don’t fancy it’ in order to learn ‘how to do it’. Last year it took the push of the threat of enforced abandonment the kids if they could ski and I couldn’t to give me the push. That is still present, but now I have to move forward from what I learned last year and its one hell of a challenge, because I will have to face learning something more difficult, but I’ll never move on if I don’t.
I want to be able to do it – I’ve never found anything I can’t do if I put my mind to it (‘cept maybe that 12’ gantry). I watch the wonderful folk ‘shooshing’ down the slopes making lovely ‘S’ shapes in the snow, and wish it was me. I even got the boots ‘cos I want to be able to do it. I can do it in my mind’s eye, I can see how the ski’s need to work, then I look where the lift goes……. And the doubts set in. s'Funny though I was never scared ice skating, or motorbiking - anything I'm in control of I guess.
I am glad you all understand Little tiger you give me great hope. Just telling you all helps – DH doesn’t understand, and I don’t even think my Swiss friends, who have been on the slopes since they could walk, fully understand either.
P.S. I’m definitely not keen on 4” across black monstrosities that dash out from under the TV, or lurk in the bath, but I will get a glass and piece of cardboard and take them 50 yards out into the garden so I know where they are, and the fact that they won’t just run back inside!!
P.P.S. If I do manage to crack it (the fear thing) – and I’ll know when it happens, I’m afraid you might have to endure me coming back in a couple of weeks and letting you all know
Sorry this is so long.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Megamum -- You should consider taking up snowboarding. It is much easier. Fewer edges and no poles. It only takes a few weeks and you can be riding like an oldtimer.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Whitegold, Ooo....no...don't fancy snowboarding at all - It seems your feet are stuck in place on the board and you can't do anything if it starts going downhill in a straight line too fast - somehow it seems safer to have the chance for the feet to do something independantly and your hands in some sort of contact with the ground if only through the poles - thanks for the thought though
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Megamum, I don't think Whitegold's post was really aimed at you. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
| I can do it in my mind’s eye, I can see how the ski’s need to work, then I look where the lift goes……. And the doubts set in. s'Funny though I was never scared ice skating, or motorbiking - anything I'm in control of I guess. |
I'm always paranoid that the klutz behind me will slice my calf or Achilles' tendon in half with his new-sharpened skates and spastic footwork.
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean it isn't going to happen.
Megamum, a lot of your fear sounds visually centered. One thing to be sure of is that the prescription/glasses/contacts are up-to-date if you wear them, or you'll imagine a lot more than is really out there.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Megamum, that's exactly how I feel on a board - having my feet locked in an immovable position is very disturbing, my poor old brain can't really cope with it. How folk can say learning to board is easier is beyond me
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| Megamum wrote: |
| Whitegold, Ooo....no...don't fancy snowboarding at all - It seems your feet are stuck in place on the board and you can't do anything if it starts going downhill in a straight line too fast - somehow it seems safer to have the chance for the feet to do something independantly and your hands in some sort of contact with the ground if only through the poles - thanks for the thought though |
You just lean onto the back edge, if the tray starts going downhill too fast.
I know one rider who was confidently surfing blacks after just one week. It is much easier than two planks.
By my reckoning, snowboarding is 2 to 5 times easier than skiing.
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| Quote: |
You just lean onto the back edge, if the tray starts going downhill too fast
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Yet, that's just the opposite with skis - you don't lean back - as I know to my cost 
Unless off course you mean leaning back onto the long edge that is uphill.
Mind you what-ever you mean I still remain unconvinced - even if the kids ever get going on boards (which I shan't encourage, but wouldn't forbid either) I think I'll stick to my two planks for regular use - maybe once I have some confidence on skis I'd give it a go for an odd lesson - I wouldn't want to be accused of narrow mindedness - after all I guess we shouldn't condem something until we've given it a go.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
By my reckoning, snowboarding is 2 to 5 times easier than skiing.
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so not really worth bothering with then. Waste of time doing something easy.
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Megamum,
| Quote: |
| P.S. I’m definitely not keen on 4” across black monstrosities that dash out from under the TV, or lurk in the bath, but I will get a glass and piece of cardboard and take them 50 yards out into the garden so I know where they are, and the fact that they won’t just run back inside!! |
They do come running straight back in. Just as soon as you turn your back - 50 yards, 500 yards, 500 miles - no difference. You may as well just plop the little creeps on the doorstep 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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davidof,
Apologies, I was told that Saudan had died skiing some years ago, will check my facts first next time.
Vallencant died climbing, however I met him some years ago, he told me that, with the terrain that he was skiing, 55 degrees plus, he was quite philosophical that if he fell he would probably not be able to arrest his fall, and the outcome depended on what was below him.
Coombs, did indeed die trying to save a friend, skiing a coulior where a fall would probably be fatal. Sadly it was.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I felt that if on the second day that I went off-piste with a guide, he'd listened a bit more to the problem that I was having, and introduced me a bit more gently, then I don't think that I would have had the problems that I did. As others have mentioned, when I did force myself to ski what he was suggesting, I was so stiff that I couldn't do it.
What was needed was a bit more gentle introduction, which I got from Euan at the EoSB, and that helped me (with the aid of some skis that made it ridiculously easy to turn) to get my confidence back, to a stage where now I can feel the fear, and force my way through it. Since then I've skied far more gnarlier stuff, with no problem at all.
Having some lessons on technique from Charlotte also helped a lot.
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I was teaching skiing before snowboards were invented. I was the first ski instructor on Caringorm to snowboard. I have never seen any evidence that it's easier to learn snowboarding than skiing.
Whitegold, why do you always insist you're right - this is not the first time you've contradicted someone who clearly knows more about a certain subject than you do. In this case, uktrailmonster, said s/he works with F1 drivers - you watch from your armchair - errmmm.
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You know it makes sense.
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Megamum, I still get nervous when looking up at a steep piste I'm going to be coming down - always looks much too steep for me & if I had my way I'd chicken out. I need to be pushed a bit out of my comfort zone - and not worry about what the piste will be like. 9 times out of 10 once you're on a slope it's not nearly as steep as it looks either from the bottom or from the chair lift.
As others have said, I've found that good tuition is key to progressing - get your technique right and your confidence will follow.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I think what has really helped is being here on  's and being able to ask question after question and read answers to what others are asking - now I understand a whole lot more about boot's, ski's and the techniques that should make the two work together. It's amazing how much difference this knowledge has made - I think I will feel more confident in the kit (at least) and I will really try to force myself to work the lower part of my body and try and get those skis on their edges - everyone here has maintained that these carving skis on their edges go round corners better. I'm sure the only thing that is holding me back is confidence - if I can get that I think I'll be satisfied, because then everything can be learned and I'll be confident enough to place myself in the hands of the instructer. I definitely need a set of last year's nice short ski's - but I didn't think to note what I had been given last time - that's something else I've picked up - it pays to take note of the kit you use and what its suitable for. This year I should be able to come back and tell you what I skied on - assuming we get skiing that is - still very little where we are going.
easiski, I just think you have take Whitegold in the way he wants to be portrayed - occasionally he is tempted to be an ordinary individual and come up with something useful, but mostly he just likes to sit there and flame away and see what he stirs up - best not to rise to him too much.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Megamum, I just find it annoying. Some of us do really try to help people, and then you get really silly uninformed comments ........ 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Megamum, it helps to read threads for content, not for consensus. Pretty easy to sort out the tripe that way.
Honestly, reading for consensus seems more than a bit silly to me. Take one thing. Oversimplify it. Then oversimplify it again. Then extrapolate from the oversimplifications.
Disagreement! Endless days of bickering! Road song of the Bandar-log!
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Fri 2-02-07 17:09; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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comprex, Too true 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Whitegold wrote: |
F1 is mostly about repetitive driving.
The same cars with the same technology on the same short tracks.
Round and round in circles.
Going a little bit faster, or a little bit smoother, each time.
All that stuff about superhuman skills in F1 is mostly hype.
It sexes up the sport. So they can charge higher prices. |
In your humble opinion right?
There is a grain of truth in some of the above, but it's not THAT easy. Imagine yourself at the start of a race, sitting in the cockpit. Engine sitting on hold at 14,000 rpm, cockpit temperature 50+ degC. Start lights go off, you drop the clutch (reaction time 0.15 sec), engine blasts up to 20,000 rpm, while you accelerate at 1G (same rate as freefalling off a cliff). While this is going on, other cars are less than a couple of feet away in all directions. Then go up through the gears on full throttle 2,3,4,5,6,7 hitting all the shift points at 20,000 rpm. Then brake from 300+ kph less than 200 m from the first corner, decelerating at well over 5G, trying hard not to lock up the brakes or smash into another car.
You'd be scared completely shitless, virtually everyone would. And you haven't even gone round the first corner yet
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uktrailmonster, Calm down ! It's only an opinionated troll  None of its' 'facts' actually hold up under the shallowest of investigation , just ignore and it will go away!
BTW - rather interesting!!
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F1 is still depressingly boring to watch. All the racing is done in the qualifiers and the pit stops.
Moto GP is the way to go
All wildly off topic as neither are seen very often on the piste/mountains.
Back on topic
Face the fear every new resort, new run, 1st morning...
So far got down in one piece, except for once last season.
2 nights in the local Krankenhausen, back on the skis for the last afternoon. So hopefully will be reasonably ok this coming March.
Better be, new skis and boots
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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uktrailmonster, Doesn't sound that scarey compared with riding a bicycle through town.
Indeed F1 would seem to be quite exciting - from in the car at least. I prefer the old days of it though when it was exciting to watch as well!
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[quote="petemillis"]I used to be scared at times, but strangely, since getting married and having 4 kids, I seem to be doing more and more stuff now that would have scared me 15 years ago! Like hooning around on my motorbike, riding my mountain bike down steep hills, being happy walking around on high beams and rooftops when working on houses, - lots of silly little things.
Your other half is quite clearly lacing your coffee with a view to cashing in on the life assurance
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FAQ
