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A snowHead

David@traxvax, 'fraid your web site does not come up from that link - can you check it?

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Chris Downey: Please allow me to correct some confusion here.

I don't think our holidays to the Toviere in val d are equivalent. The 'guide' I had for the week was UIAGM qualified. I spent the whole week off piste with the guide and I received instruction into the bargain. As you've said, you don't get any of that with Mark Warner. I did the sums comparing MW brochure prices against SCGB - they aren't that far apart. Another difference between the two is that SCGB don't need to discount their trips to get the punters in. The SCGB off piste trips are generally all fully booked within a few months of the brochure coming out in August. I still maintain I got a good deal. As someone else mentioned, there are a few ego-centrics fussing about silver/purple/gold, but they generally get what they deserve, ie less than they expect! Nevertheless, I'm seriously tempted to go back for more for next year.

brian

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David@T, I hope you don't mind a slightly cleaner link.

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kevin mcclean, a belated welcome to

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Glad you like it - better in many ways than the old open forum on SCGB. Moderated, built in profanity filter (check naughty words in preview to see how they get converted), no identity highjacking (but thread highjacking is a fact of forum life - even this one has wandered about a bit), and smileys. And most important, it's thriving !!! I was a relative newbie on the SCGB forum before they shut it down but your reputation for livening up some threads has preceeded you. Look forward to it. Cool

After all it is free

Is it just simply a case of either getting the Ski Club to do all the organising for you or booking guides yourself? I have always believed it's far more flexible deploying the latter method as you're in greater control of the arrangements. Additionally, if you book a 'powder' holiday 7 months in advance then there is the possibility of having no powder when you get to your destination! That's why I've always waited 'till I've arrived at the village to ascertain the snow conditions before employing the services of a local guide. Of course, I would have done some research beforehand to identify the appropriate instructors and then it's purely a case of booking them up. Naturally this might be a difficult thing to achieve during peak weeks but I daresay you get my jist.

Or gist even. Well clearly you have a choice - but unless you have a largish party how expensive do you think the services of a UIAGM (or whatever they call themselves now) guide for 5 days would be? Then there is the question of getting the guide you want, assuming that matters to you. With the Club hols you know in advance who they have booked for the trip. As for snow, well even in poor years in my experience the guides tend to know little out of the way spots where untracked snow is still to be found. If there aren't any then they will make the best of a bad job and work on technique.
The only mediocre experience I had with them was in St Anton (a Mark Warner chalet funnily enough, couldn't fault that apart from the slightly eccentric shower cubicle half way up the stairs) - the guide was in fact from the local ski school, a nice enough bloke but he knocked off work at 3pm every day, when there was at least 1 1/2 hours of daylight and lifts to go. Everywhere else we were usually last off the mountain and lifts were shut.

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You're right Alan, it's gist, isn't it? Of course, snow is the great variable that cannot be 'managed' and any instructor/guide worth their salt will work for their clients and find what untracked stuff there might be. Still, if there's no powder and you've booked this sort of trip then you're going to have to work on something different, aren't you? And if the snow is really 'bad' (in fact, there's no such thing as bad snow) then there's always the couloirs for entertainment. I've crapped myself enough times on these to get freebies from Andrex........

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Firstly, to join David in a blatent plug I also offer a discount to SCGB members. However - you must all be stinking rich if you can afford either MW or SCGB holidays! Although I don't go on ski-ing holidays much myself I do keep an eye on the prices and oh boy!!!!!!!
Never mind - are we bashing the SCGB? Do you know that they sell "articles" which are really adverts but read as an article for £750? One of the larger ski schools here has just paid for what didn't look remotely like an ad. Small, one-person bands can't afford this sort of price.
BTW they don't have a rep here in LDA (the second biggest off piste area in France after Chamonix, not inlcuding La Grave), because the local ESF won't allow unqualified people to escort paying guests! Puzzled

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I skied with the ski club rep in LDA in 2000 or 2001, at the time they seemed to be having problems with the locals. The esf would not allow them to post details of the meeting place (we found out where it was from the tourist office), and I don't think the reps were allowed to wear the ski club jacket. Consequently he was not oversubscribed with punters and we had exclusive use of the reps services for a couple of days. By the way the rep in question had skied all over the world so I think that the french requirement for attaining a benchmark time on a slalom course is a bit irrelevant and just job protectionism.

Anybody know why there is no scgb rep in Serre Chevalier these days?

You know it makes sense.

Nick Zotov, do you mean you'll only go to resorts where SCGB has staff? Isn't that a bit restrictive? Try doing something on your own!
There is a world of skiing out there, beyond the confines of SCGB.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

A snowHead

Thanks for reminding us of that Ian, I'd forgotten that that's probably as close to a statement of the "legal advice" as we've seen.

What it doesn't explain (to me at least, but then I'm only an average bear) is how restricting access to paid up members resolves either of those concerns. Is, for example, an article denouncing the characteristics of a particular racial group published in a "private" newsletter any the less defamatory (or illegal?) because it's "restricted access"? It seems to me that the more open a society is the more such "extremism" is subject to scrutiny and sanction. We might think of a few folk who would wish that intelligence dossiers could be kept truly "secret" for example. The only logical position that follows from the Club's stance is to have no forum at all.

Still, I did say that I didn't want to rekindle this so I'll shut up now. Please ignore the above Razz

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

That's an interesting legal quandry you raise Alan and I suspect the liability remains the same, despite having private access to voice defamatory views (if one so desired). The Club's argument thus doesn't stand up to much scrutiny and essentially it's in a skiing form of purgatory whilst it continues to lumber on with its highly unsatisfactory members chat zone.

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Nick Zotov, the reason LDA has stopped reps "guiding" in resort is that a few years ago there was a bad accident which was the fault of the SCGB rep trying to take people down an unsuitable slope for their ability. A very similar thing happened with a Thompson rep also "guiding".
While the SCGB reps do have to do a training course and so on, it's not sufficient to allow people to take paying (after all the members pay to be so) members of the public off piste and into "places I wouldn't othwise go". That's not to say that all SCGB reps are inadequately prepared (and they're certainly better prepared than the majority of the TO reps), but not all of them have the appropriate qualifications for the ski escorting they do.
The ESF (and it was them, not the resort) put their foot down and invoked the law. I'm not sure whether it was a good thing to do or not, but I do think it was understanable.
The other question this business begs is: do SCGB members ski with the reps because they're too mean to pay professionals?

After all it is free

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Mark Hunter, I think you're right. Years ago even T.O. Reps with no training could run very basic 'ski leading' in Serre Che but ESF clamped down on it hard there, and in many other French resorts. Last time I used a Leading Service we had a grumpy ESF instructor tagging along just to keep it legal. Then the TOs gave up completely since they were paying for the ESF guy, not the punters. Shame really because the TO's were only showing people around the resorts, strictly no teaching and definitely no guiding off piste. Helped put their clients who were not going to ski school into contact with each other on day one. Not really competing with real schools or proper guides who don't offer this sort of service.
I've always thought of the SCGB Reps as being a bit different to the TO chalet dollies but they're not really. Just much better skiers and trained. In principle, however, much the same thing. But definitely in competion as regards off piste guiding.
Now that Serre Che is relatively well known and covered by most operators, the resort probably feels whatever publicity value they get from the SCGB Repping doesn't warrant the cost. And also doesn't fit with the Local Guides Only policy, as you've said.

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Just reading these latter comments reminds me of some of the problems of the past when citizens arrests used to occur in French resorts where British Instructors were 'caught' teaching their clients. One spectacular example was Ali Ross who was arrested, I think, in 1989 but I can't remember where. It seems a lot of what goes on is clearly protectionist practice masquerading as 'skier safety'-the equivalence being a case in point. Moreover, EU freedom of movement and trade law surely means these practices are anti-competitive? Still, given the observations about Serre Che, it's amazing Eureka Ski ever got off the ground!!

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I'm going to jump straight in here as I have a lot of sympathy for the French position. I know it varies from resort to resort but in our village, which is small, we show our guests around the slopes without any problems. What we don't do is upset the ESF or EVO2 or ESI by wearing uniforms. We know the instructors and know how hard they work to live in their communities, so we don't take guests off-piste, our insurance precludes that in any event, and if we have guests who need tuition we'll introduce them to the ski-school.
I'm all in favour of keeping standarsd as high as possible, for example when my son who'd been ski and board instructing in the US for a number of years , he has PSIA and ASII qualifications, was approached to join the ESF he was told he'd have to take the equivalance and follow the ESF process. It didn't cause him a problem, because he knew he could go to work with them right away and take the tests within a reasonable time-frame.

You know it makes sense.

David@traxvax, good points and you've obviously come to a sensible compromise in your area. Only point I don't understand is what difference does your jacket make ?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

Good points David and it's clear you and your fellow travellers take a sensitive approach to the 'problem' when you are dealing with your clients. Presumably, your lad is capable of passing the timed slalom test but what do British instructors, who are more than able to teach across the spectrum of skiing capabilities, do if they cannot pass such a test? Is the ability to ski a series of gates a serious gauage of an instructor's competence to teach an intermediate how to carve a turn? I'm not so sure and I do still see it as a measure to exclude others from having a piece of the pie. In 1988 I did obtain a grade 3 licence under BASI (which, admittedly, is the most basic qualification after ASSI) but in no way could I have gone on and taught in a French resort as my gate technique was not (and never has been, despite years of blinkin' practice) up to scratch! Essentially, your point is about developing a relationship with the local people so that the needs of the community and the requirements of your guests (who ultimtely line the locals pockets) are mutually met. Food for thought.....

A snowHead

Ian, In my experience the local instructors get hacked off by obvious guiding by TOs. When my son worked as a guide for a small British company he was told by his boss not to wear his uniform when taking guests out. They and us, together with the other small operators in the village have not had a problem, the village is small enough for us to know the intructors and for them to know us. Although a Scandinavian company, with lots of staff all uniformed, have attracted attention. I think it also helps that we are part of the community, we don't just pitch up for the season and are never seen again. I take your point about the test but the French view is that an instructor must be capable of instructing at all levels, which includes racing. The test is open to all and the barrier is set high to dissuade those applicants who do not have the skill or aptitude to complete the reqirements of the training.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Hmmm.... 2 cents’ worth coming. I’ve seen David’s operation and he has the right attitude to building and keeping a relationship with the people who count . . . and that’s respecting everyone who’s home is La Rosièr. But he does have one benefit that many don’t, La Ros’ is small beautiful and very intimate. It’s one of the places that judge people by their actions and everyone knows what everyone else is doing, it has ‘community’. Ok some people don’t like that level of involvement, but it does foster a mutual respect that makes offering ‘guiding’ a service that will not put the noses of the schools out of joint. Then there’s the difference between a ‘guide’ that shows you the safe routes around the resort, the ‘guide’ that says “I know a shortcut” and the ‘guide’ that says (as you peer over the piste closed barrier) “It’s not as steep as you think, I’ll see you in the cafe at the bottom of Red 4”. Confused

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Just an observation about non Ski-School personnel "guiding" on Piste. In many North American ski resorts local volunteers offer a free service of guiding newcomers to the resort around some of the pistes. This useful service (often known by names such as "Meet the Mountain") are obviously arranged with the knowledge and full backing of the ski school/resort owners. I have never come across such a service in Europe- How come it is encouraged in the USA but not Europe?

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kevin mcclean, You obviously missed the very long thread about Simon Butler. The BASI Grade 1 (now International Ski teacher) includes the same slalon (now giant slalom) test as the French do. We have an accord with the French, Italian, Austrian and British systems. The exams are the same and automatic equivalence is granted in each of these countries. Now, as a British ski teacher working legally in France, and having set up shop as an independent without too many problems I can agree wholeheartedly with David@traxvax, about areas with "community" and so on. Many people think LDA is a purpose built, souless place, but that's not the case, as most visitors find out.

Anyway, you should also give a lot of sympathy to French trainee instructors who fail the test - they have to give up ski teaching altogether in the main. At least the British instructors can work in Austria, Switzerland the States and so on. The French are not qualified AT ALL until they're passed the last of their exams. Ours have intermediate exams to give them a qualification.
Cool

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Sorry Terry Wells, I think you've mis-posted - shouldn't that be in the "Joke" thread? Razz

After all it is free

Easiski, thanks for the update about the current arrangements regarding the agreements between the various national bodies. I suppose I was always in danger of being 'out of date' when I relied on the position from the late 1980's when I was active! It's also good to hear the other side of the coin and learn that it really is 'all or nothing' for many French aspirants. Does this make them the best, in your opinion, therefore?

David@traxvax, the link doesn't work (missing a) but this should: Tracks Vacations . I was thinking about your place for our regular winter weekend which is becoming more off piste in flavour. You don't fancy building an extension or building a second chalet so that you can accomodate 16 do you? It looks very nice

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Martin, I've sent you a pm. Depending on dates I'm sure we can do something.

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Hello everyone, I'm new to this game.....

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