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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
David@traxvax, 'fraid your web site does not come up from that link - can you check it?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Chris Downey wrote:
Quote:

the full-time services of a guide shared between no more than 8 people,

good travel from region airport,

chalet/hotel accommodation that compared very favourably with any chalet I've been to (how many chalets give you 3 choices of starter and main courses?).

All this adds to the costs so, as with anything else, you pays your money and takes your choice.


duncan, I rest my case. I stayed in the Toviere last december, paid £360 for the week got the same great food (3 starters/mains/puds or cheese) wine, small/tatty rooms/bar. I too benifitted from ski hosting, plus i could have chosen to ski with a Ski Club rep. Therefore i can't understand your theory.

So I will say again. The ski club's holidays are overpriced as you can get pretty much the same thing on an MW holiday. Also for most part of the week there were only 5 or 6 in the ski group in the morning and 2 every afternoon!


I stayed in the MW Chalet Dahu at Courchevel just before Christmas last year and got the same treatment, although the room and bar weren't tatty (cost a bit more). Because the snow was a bit iffy (although perfectly skiable) we were offered a day with guide in Val d'Isere and another in La Plagne for no extra. Not the cheapest option, but in my view very good value. Ski groups varied in size from 2 to 8.
ski holidays
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Chris Downey: Please allow me to correct some confusion here.

I don't think our holidays to the Toviere in val d are equivalent. The 'guide' I had for the week was UIAGM qualified. I spent the whole week off piste with the guide and I received instruction into the bargain. As you've said, you don't get any of that with Mark Warner. I did the sums comparing MW brochure prices against SCGB - they aren't that far apart. Another difference between the two is that SCGB don't need to discount their trips to get the punters in. The SCGB off piste trips are generally all fully booked within a few months of the brochure coming out in August. I still maintain I got a good deal. As someone else mentioned, there are a few ego-centrics fussing about silver/purple/gold, but they generally get what they deserve, ie less than they expect! Nevertheless, I'm seriously tempted to go back for more for next year.
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 brian
brian
Guest
Nick Zotov wrote:
David@traxvax, 'fraid your web site does not come up from that link - can you check it?


Try www.tracksvacations.com
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
David@T, I hope you don't mind a slightly cleaner link.
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 You'll need to Register first of course.
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David@traxvax wrote:
Nick, at the risk of putting in a blatant plug, have a look at our website www.tracksvactions.com, we're running ski randonee and ski touring holidays this season using local guides, in the Haute Tarentaise. Our guides are from the ESF in La Rosiere, we're based in La Rosiere but we'll be covering all the Tarentaise resorts.


Ooh. Looks interesting. Assuming the SCGB are running a similar program to last year, there is a specific week based at Verbier which appeals strongly. But you certainly make the case well for a holiday based at La Rosiere.

Cool site.

And thanks to brian for the clean link.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
kevin mcclean, a belated welcome to snowHead snowHeads snowHead .
Glad you like it - better in many ways than the old open forum on SCGB. Moderated, built in profanity filter (check naughty words in preview to see how they get converted), no identity highjacking (but thread highjacking is a fact of forum life - even this one has wandered about a bit), and smileys. And most important, it's thriving !!! I was a relative newbie on the SCGB forum before they shut it down but your reputation for livening up some threads has preceeded you. Look forward to it. Cool
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Is it just simply a case of either getting the Ski Club to do all the organising for you or booking guides yourself? I have always believed it's far more flexible deploying the latter method as you're in greater control of the arrangements. Additionally, if you book a 'powder' holiday 7 months in advance then there is the possibility of having no powder when you get to your destination! That's why I've always waited 'till I've arrived at the village to ascertain the snow conditions before employing the services of a local guide. Of course, I would have done some research beforehand to identify the appropriate instructors and then it's purely a case of booking them up. Naturally this might be a difficult thing to achieve during peak weeks but I daresay you get my jist.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Or gist even. Well clearly you have a choice - but unless you have a largish party how expensive do you think the services of a UIAGM (or whatever they call themselves now) guide for 5 days would be? Then there is the question of getting the guide you want, assuming that matters to you. With the Club hols you know in advance who they have booked for the trip. As for snow, well even in poor years in my experience the guides tend to know little out of the way spots where untracked snow is still to be found. If there aren't any then they will make the best of a bad job and work on technique.
The only mediocre experience I had with them was in St Anton (a Mark Warner chalet funnily enough, couldn't fault that apart from the slightly eccentric shower cubicle half way up the stairs) - the guide was in fact from the local ski school, a nice enough bloke but he knocked off work at 3pm every day, when there was at least 1 1/2 hours of daylight and lifts to go. Everywhere else we were usually last off the mountain and lifts were shut.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
You're right Alan, it's gist, isn't it? Of course, snow is the great variable that cannot be 'managed' and any instructor/guide worth their salt will work for their clients and find what untracked stuff there might be. Still, if there's no powder and you've booked this sort of trip then you're going to have to work on something different, aren't you? And if the snow is really 'bad' (in fact, there's no such thing as bad snow) then there's always the couloirs for entertainment. I've crapped myself enough times on these to get freebies from Andrex........
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Firstly, to join David in a blatent plug I also offer a discount to SCGB members. However - you must all be stinking rich if you can afford either MW or SCGB holidays! Although I don't go on ski-ing holidays much myself I do keep an eye on the prices and oh boy!!!!!!!
Never mind - are we bashing the SCGB? Do you know that they sell "articles" which are really adverts but read as an article for £750? One of the larger ski schools here has just paid for what didn't look remotely like an ad. Small, one-person bands can't afford this sort of price.
BTW they don't have a rep here in LDA (the second biggest off piste area in France after Chamonix, not inlcuding La Grave), because the local ESF won't allow unqualified people to escort paying guests! Puzzled
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
easiski wrote:
BTW they don't have a rep here in LDA


A reason for me not going there these days.

Had some happy days there, though. Skiing with an ex-freestyle skier who used to own a chalet there, with his wife who was a gourmet cook.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I skied with the ski club rep in LDA in 2000 or 2001, at the time they seemed to be having problems with the locals. The esf would not allow them to post details of the meeting place (we found out where it was from the tourist office), and I don't think the reps were allowed to wear the ski club jacket. Consequently he was not oversubscribed with punters and we had exclusive use of the reps services for a couple of days. By the way the rep in question had skied all over the world so I think that the french requirement for attaining a benchmark time on a slalom course is a bit irrelevant and just job protectionism.

Anybody know why there is no scgb rep in Serre Chevalier these days?
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Nick Zotov, do you mean you'll only go to resorts where SCGB has staff? Isn't that a bit restrictive? Try doing something on your own!
There is a world of skiing out there, beyond the confines of SCGB.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Wear The Fox Hat wrote:
Nick Zotov, do you mean you'll only go to resorts where SCGB has staff?


Pretty much so. I stopped going to St Anton when the rep system was withdrawn from there. I find the rep system offers so much skiing in areas I would not wish to go on my own, at a price I can afford. In other words, I can book any sort of accommodation and transport and flight, and am not paying for a weeks guiding fees.

These days, I either take a club holiday for technique development, or I ski at a rep resort. Other than the non-availability of St Anton, the list of rep resorts meets my needs these days. My regular skiing buddy feels the same
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
pistemeister wrote:
Anybody know why there is no scgb rep in Serre Chevalier these days?


AFAIK, the resort actually invites the Rep and provides accommodation (maybe more ?) so I can only assume Serre Che don't think it's worth it.

On the reasons for closing the open forum discussed on the 1st page of this thread here's an extract from Laura's email to registered members

Quote:
In view of the strength of the opinions expressed by both members and non-members, the Club has debated this at its highest level. We have also taken legal advice.

There are two areas of very real concern to us. Firstly, the legal liability to which the Ski Club might be exposed by items posted in the chat forum. There is no way round the legal position that the Club is technically "publishing" anything that anyone posts in its Chat Forum,
even if we published disclaimers. This isn't just a Ski Club problem -
all chat forums face similar issues.

Secondly, we are concerned about the impact that some of the threads may have upon the Club's partners, such as rep resorts, and our ability to
go on delivering our wide range of services both at home and abroad to
the Ski Club's 27,500 members.
Note they refer to a rep resort as a partner. It seems to be a close relationship which SCGB wish to preserve.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Thanks for reminding us of that Ian, I'd forgotten that that's probably as close to a statement of the "legal advice" as we've seen.

What it doesn't explain (to me at least, but then I'm only an average bear) is how restricting access to paid up members resolves either of those concerns. Is, for example, an article denouncing the characteristics of a particular racial group published in a "private" newsletter any the less defamatory (or illegal?) because it's "restricted access"? It seems to me that the more open a society is the more such "extremism" is subject to scrutiny and sanction. We might think of a few folk who would wish that intelligence dossiers could be kept truly "secret" for example. The only logical position that follows from the Club's stance is to have no forum at all.

Still, I did say that I didn't want to rekindle this so I'll shut up now. Please ignore the above Razz
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
That's an interesting legal quandry you raise Alan and I suspect the liability remains the same, despite having private access to voice defamatory views (if one so desired). The Club's argument thus doesn't stand up to much scrutiny and essentially it's in a skiing form of purgatory whilst it continues to lumber on with its highly unsatisfactory members chat zone.
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Alan Craggs wrote:
Thanks for reminding us of that Ian, I'd forgotten that that's probably as close to a statement of the "legal advice" as we've seen.


I think they were worried on 2 counts.
1) Threads slagging off some tour operators (aka 'Last Choice') who might just go to law and .....
2) Also to protect their reps and the cosy relationship with some resorts. I talked to one rep who said if his wife had read some of the things posted on the SCGB forum he'd never be allowed to rep again !!

They must think Paid Up Members are unlikely to post naughty stuff on these topics otherwise as you say it's illogical. They seem to have been proved right for the wrong reasons if the forums are now as dead as I've been led to believe. ( I'm not a member. My post about Laura's email should have said 'registered users' )

Anyhow - it's all over now and their loss. All they needed was some decent software and volunteer moderators and they've missed their chance. We've even got Mr K. McClean on board. A few quid lighter. Perhaps that's why this topic has found a new lease of life ? He does tend to spark off some good discussions ........
Floreat snowHeads
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Alan Craggs wrote:
The only logical position that follows from the Club's stance is to have no forum at all.

Hmm. I have been peering in the SCGB archives. Before MO the SCGB was sanctioning open viewing by anonymous contributors - who posted comments like the reps' training standard being at an "almost comically low level". Now the SCGB forum contributors automatically are identifiable both to the club and the forum members. Seems to me there is a big difference, and it is not illogical for the SCGB still to run a forum. Personally, I think the MO SCGB forum is a good place for members to chew over thoughts about the club with others whom they know to be other members.
When the open forum was in session, resort managers must have wondered what was going on. So must magazine advertisers who saw the magazine belittled.

The SCGB forum cannot be other than directly linked with the club. Hence anonymous non-members' views could said to have been endorsed by it pre MO. OTOH This forum's contibutors can publish what they like (subject to some basic rules) because snowheads has no implicit endorsement of their comments. Seems to me the evolution of the forums into their present state has benefited all. Cool
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 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
Quote:

Seems to me the evolution of the forums into their present state has benefited all.

I can't agree with that, Nick. Lots of people who contributed good stuff to the open forum cannot even read it now. 2 newish snowHeads have had to shell out real money only to find out what they wanted was no longer in existence. They're not benefits IMO.
I do agree with the rest of your post. I cannot comment on the mechanics of the MO Forum but from your post it sounds as if it has addressed one of the main problems of the open forum - which was anonymous posting. You could even pretend to be Admin !!! The other was lack of moderation so none of the wild stuff (and there was some) could be toned down or removed. Just before MO day there was serious swearing appearing. Many posters had offered SCGB good advice about all the obvious problems with their forum and how to overcome them at zero cost - but they chose to ignore it and eventually slammed the portcullis down. We have a very good set of forums here but little else at present, though plans for future expansion are under development. They have a good site but the MO Forum is gasping for breath, I believe. Oh how good could it have been if they had only taken advice from people like U Brain.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Nick Zotov, the reason LDA has stopped reps "guiding" in resort is that a few years ago there was a bad accident which was the fault of the SCGB rep trying to take people down an unsuitable slope for their ability. A very similar thing happened with a Thompson rep also "guiding".
While the SCGB reps do have to do a training course and so on, it's not sufficient to allow people to take paying (after all the members pay to be so) members of the public off piste and into "places I wouldn't othwise go". That's not to say that all SCGB reps are inadequately prepared (and they're certainly better prepared than the majority of the TO reps), but not all of them have the appropriate qualifications for the ski escorting they do.
The ESF (and it was them, not the resort) put their foot down and invoked the law. I'm not sure whether it was a good thing to do or not, but I do think it was understanable.
The other question this business begs is: do SCGB members ski with the reps because they're too mean to pay professionals?
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
easiski wrote:
Nick Zotov, the reason LDA has stopped reps "guiding" in resort is that a few years ago there was a bad accident which was the fault of the SCGB rep trying to take people down an unsuitable slope for their ability

Could be, can't comment - don't know of the case. But almost without exception I don't go to a resort without a rep. We are all free - thank goodness - to choose whether or not to do so, of course.
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
kuwait_ian wrote:
pistemeister wrote:
Anybody know why there is no scgb rep in Serre Chevalier these days?


AFAIK, the resort actually invites the Rep and provides accommodation (maybe more ?) so I can only assume Serre Che don't think it's worth it.


From my understanding, the resort actively discourages any form of competition to local teaching/guiding operations. This from a SCGB member who operates chalet holidays in the region. I don't think this is likely to be untypical, and recollect a thread on the pre MO day SCGB forum where examples of this "protectionism" were discussed.


Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Tue 3-08-04 14:36; edited 1 time in total
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Mark Hunter, I think you're right. Years ago even T.O. Reps with no training could run very basic 'ski leading' in Serre Che but ESF clamped down on it hard there, and in many other French resorts. Last time I used a Leading Service we had a grumpy ESF instructor tagging along just to keep it legal. Then the TOs gave up completely since they were paying for the ESF guy, not the punters. Shame really because the TO's were only showing people around the resorts, strictly no teaching and definitely no guiding off piste. Helped put their clients who were not going to ski school into contact with each other on day one. Not really competing with real schools or proper guides who don't offer this sort of service.
I've always thought of the SCGB Reps as being a bit different to the TO chalet dollies but they're not really. Just much better skiers and trained. In principle, however, much the same thing. But definitely in competion as regards off piste guiding.
Now that Serre Che is relatively well known and covered by most operators, the resort probably feels whatever publicity value they get from the SCGB Repping doesn't warrant the cost. And also doesn't fit with the Local Guides Only policy, as you've said.
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Just reading these latter comments reminds me of some of the problems of the past when citizens arrests used to occur in French resorts where British Instructors were 'caught' teaching their clients. One spectacular example was Ali Ross who was arrested, I think, in 1989 but I can't remember where. It seems a lot of what goes on is clearly protectionist practice masquerading as 'skier safety'-the equivalence being a case in point. Moreover, EU freedom of movement and trade law surely means these practices are anti-competitive? Still, given the observations about Serre Che, it's amazing Eureka Ski ever got off the ground!!
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:

Moreover, EU freedom of movement and trade law surely means these practices are anti-competitive?
When the fuss about foreign ski instructors was at it's highest there was a Brit MP who was threatening to take these points up at the highest level. I never heard what happened ? Anyone know ? Obviously he didn't succeed. The French still interpret EU Law any way they like.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I'm going to jump straight in here as I have a lot of sympathy for the French position. I know it varies from resort to resort but in our village, which is small, we show our guests around the slopes without any problems. What we don't do is upset the ESF or EVO2 or ESI by wearing uniforms. We know the instructors and know how hard they work to live in their communities, so we don't take guests off-piste, our insurance precludes that in any event, and if we have guests who need tuition we'll introduce them to the ski-school.
I'm all in favour of keeping standarsd as high as possible, for example when my son who'd been ski and board instructing in the US for a number of years , he has PSIA and ASII qualifications, was approached to join the ESF he was told he'd have to take the equivalance and follow the ESF process. It didn't cause him a problem, because he knew he could go to work with them right away and take the tests within a reasonable time-frame.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
David@traxvax, good points and you've obviously come to a sensible compromise in your area. Only point I don't understand is what difference does your jacket make ?
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
kevin mcclean wrote:
Still, given the observations about Serre Che, it's amazing Eureka Ski ever got off the ground!!


They almost didn't, I think it took a lot of hard work. I understand they looked at trying to get into Chantemerle as well, and had the door slammed in their faces, with ESF mounting a very strong and vociferous challenge.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Good points David and it's clear you and your fellow travellers take a sensitive approach to the 'problem' when you are dealing with your clients. Presumably, your lad is capable of passing the timed slalom test but what do British instructors, who are more than able to teach across the spectrum of skiing capabilities, do if they cannot pass such a test? Is the ability to ski a series of gates a serious gauage of an instructor's competence to teach an intermediate how to carve a turn? I'm not so sure and I do still see it as a measure to exclude others from having a piece of the pie. In 1988 I did obtain a grade 3 licence under BASI (which, admittedly, is the most basic qualification after ASSI) but in no way could I have gone on and taught in a French resort as my gate technique was not (and never has been, despite years of blinkin' practice) up to scratch! Essentially, your point is about developing a relationship with the local people so that the needs of the community and the requirements of your guests (who ultimtely line the locals pockets) are mutually met. Food for thought.....
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Ian, In my experience the local instructors get hacked off by obvious guiding by TOs. When my son worked as a guide for a small British company he was told by his boss not to wear his uniform when taking guests out. They and us, together with the other small operators in the village have not had a problem, the village is small enough for us to know the intructors and for them to know us. Although a Scandinavian company, with lots of staff all uniformed, have attracted attention. I think it also helps that we are part of the community, we don't just pitch up for the season and are never seen again. I take your point about the test but the French view is that an instructor must be capable of instructing at all levels, which includes racing. The test is open to all and the barrier is set high to dissuade those applicants who do not have the skill or aptitude to complete the reqirements of the training.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Hmmm.... 2 cents’ worth coming. I’ve seen David’s operation and he has the right attitude to building and keeping a relationship with the people who count . . . and that’s respecting everyone who’s home is La Rosièr. But he does have one benefit that many don’t, La Ros’ is small beautiful and very intimate. It’s one of the places that judge people by their actions and everyone knows what everyone else is doing, it has ‘community’. Ok some people don’t like that level of involvement, but it does foster a mutual respect that makes offering ‘guiding’ a service that will not put the noses of the schools out of joint. Then there’s the difference between a ‘guide’ that shows you the safe routes around the resort, the ‘guide’ that says “I know a shortcut” and the ‘guide’ that says (as you peer over the piste closed barrier) “It’s not as steep as you think, I’ll see you in the cafe at the bottom of Red 4”. Confused
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Just an observation about non Ski-School personnel "guiding" on Piste. In many North American ski resorts local volunteers offer a free service of guiding newcomers to the resort around some of the pistes. This useful service (often known by names such as "Meet the Mountain") are obviously arranged with the knowledge and full backing of the ski school/resort owners. I have never come across such a service in Europe- How come it is encouraged in the USA but not Europe?
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
kevin mcclean, You obviously missed the very long thread about Simon Butler. The BASI Grade 1 (now International Ski teacher) includes the same slalon (now giant slalom) test as the French do. We have an accord with the French, Italian, Austrian and British systems. The exams are the same and automatic equivalence is granted in each of these countries. Now, as a British ski teacher working legally in France, and having set up shop as an independent without too many problems I can agree wholeheartedly with David@traxvax, about areas with "community" and so on. Many people think LDA is a purpose built, souless place, but that's not the case, as most visitors find out.

Anyway, you should also give a lot of sympathy to French trainee instructors who fail the test - they have to give up ski teaching altogether in the main. At least the British instructors can work in Austria, Switzerland the States and so on. The French are not qualified AT ALL until they're passed the last of their exams. Ours have intermediate exams to give them a qualification.
Cool
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Alastair Pink wrote:
How come it is encouraged in the USA but not Europe?



Because the US has a thriving economy based on competition and customer service whilst the EU has an ossifying economy focussed on regulation and 'rights' (i.e. job 'protection', high taxes and high unemployment).
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Sorry Terry Wells, I think you've mis-posted - shouldn't that be in the "Joke" thread? Razz
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Easiski, thanks for the update about the current arrangements regarding the agreements between the various national bodies. I suppose I was always in danger of being 'out of date' when I relied on the position from the late 1980's when I was active! It's also good to hear the other side of the coin and learn that it really is 'all or nothing' for many French aspirants. Does this make them the best, in your opinion, therefore?
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
David@traxvax, the link doesn't work (missing a) but this should: Tracks Vacations . I was thinking about your place for our regular winter weekend which is becoming more off piste in flavour. You don't fancy building an extension or building a second chalet so that you can accomodate 16 do you? It looks very nice
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Martin, I've sent you a pm. Depending on dates I'm sure we can do something.
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