 Poster: A snowHead
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Yes it will roll the ski onto it's edge.
But just shifting your CoG over, as in the majority of skiers, means using your hips, and not necessarily using the lower joints (the key to really good carving), ie; Inclination and Angulation.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 6-10-06 12:25; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Kramer wrote: |
| veeeight, I would suggest that shifting my centre of gravity from one side to the other automatically rolls the ski onto it's edge? |
So how does that COG move itself?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Ah, veeeight beat me to it.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Sorry, I can see what you were building up to now!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Kramer wrote: |
| ......When I want to turn left I press down with my right foot, and my skis carve to the left, the harder I press, and the more I lean over, the sharper the turn..... |
ski, I agree. My key thought for carving is to initiate the turn with my inside thigh (left thigh to turn left). I know that there's other things happening at pretty much the same (pole plant/touch & weight moving forward & across etc) but this thought of 'pointing my knee were I want to go' ensures that I don't block myself out with an A frame. I find as I edge the inside ski the outside ski just follows suit.
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Just to confuse things even more, as Foxy will know, there is a GS manouvre known as a "White Pass Turn" or "White Pass Lean" invented by the Mahre brothers as a racing technique that involves the inside ski engaging in the first part of the turn..............
When you master this manouvre, you will indeed be the master of the perfect carved turn......
Here's Michael Von Gruenigen mixing it up with some White Pass Turns.
http://www.rmmskiracing.org/video/2003-03-15-Lillehammer-GS-MVG-final.mpg
(Although strictly speaking, under extremely limted circumstances (eg; boilerplate ice & sharp edges) - the perfect clean carved turn is an ideal, and cannot be realised under normal skiing conditions.)
Yet more instructor techno babble. It's much easier to demonstrate and talk than to write down - so here's Guy H from the Whistler Blackcomb Ski School demonstrating it as a drill:
http://www.mytempdir.com/973744
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veeeight, ah yes, the white pass. I once decided to show off my ability to do 2 of those in succession in Austria, when a certain other snowHead (Martin something or other...  ) decided to put me in my place by performing royale christies (I think that was the name - from ski ballet days) - basically, a white pass, but with the outside ski raised up behind him.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Yes, originally called 'reuel christies' I think, because - I may be wrong - they were invented by an Austrian or Swiss skier whose name would need researching. Ballet skiers also do 360 royal christies.
Other turns on the inside ski include outriggers.
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David Goldsmith, thanks for that - you are a mine of information!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Have found a reference from The Canadian Encyclopedia:
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| The ballet event was born in 1929, when Dr Fritz Reuel conceived of a form of skiing similar to figure skating and developed the Reuel Christie and other spinning manoeuvres for skiers. Doug Pfeiffer's School of Exotic Skiing (1956-62) expanded Dr Reuel's premise by teaching new tricks such as the mambo, the Charleston, spinners, tip rolls and crossovers, and was the first evidence that on-hill instruction was being provided for the skiing public. |
Link here.
I'd be amazed if 'spinning manoeuvres' were really possible on 1929 gear, but a royal christie - which can be a carved turn - was certainly possible.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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And just to really screw with your head, here's a HH video of a drill (variation of Austrian Turns, or Bend & Stretch turns)....
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| one of the most common mistakes in skiing is standing and pushing on or off the skis during edge change |
http://www.directedit.com/harb/harb.html
Click once on the page, then click again on "Boot Touch Exercises".
(caveat: this is an advanced/expert level tactic, a shift in timing)
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veeeight, although not the same drill, the effect I presume HH is looking for using the "Boot Touch Exercise" is one that I was having explained to me the other evening; to get the skis bent into the shape of the new turn as soon as possible after the edge change. As you can't use momentum change at that point, then you have to stomp on the skis yourself.
You also have to be moving or you'll fall down the hill. 
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You know it makes sense.
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veeeight, I love the way that the only one he manages to do for any length of the turn is the first one - and that one is done with a WIDER stance. The later turns in the clip, he keeps his stance narrow, and can only manage a quick touch. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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marc gledhill, You're right, it's totally different to the white pass turn. But the effect is not as you describe. The boot touch drill is to encourage a cross under movement, to get you to steer your skis back under your body, and then staying with a low CoM, extend the new outside leg laterally to carve.
If by "stomp" you mean extend out laterally, then yes.
If by "stomp" you mean "apply pressure" then no.
One of the biggest myths in skiing is this "applying pressure" business. Pressure is a resultant force. In engineering it's force over an area. You can apply a force over an area, and you feel pressure as a result.
In skiing we manage and/or control pressure, either build it up, or release. The biggest misunderstood concept (even by many many ski instructors) is the "applying pressure early in the turn". You can't. If you apply a force, you will end up displacing your ski out sideways, or a heel push, or a stem.
Get an early edge, steer the ski around in the arc, build the pressure.
You're now getting incredibly deep into this can of worms.
 There's only one thing for it. An open invitation for you all to come and ski with me in Whistler!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| veeeight wrote: |
| The boot touch drill is to encourage a cross under movement, to get you to steer your skis back under your body, |
What? Harald doing a drill to encourage STEERING? 
| veeeight wrote: |
| There's only one thing for it. An open invitation for you all to come and ski with me in Whistler! |
I may take you up on that some time.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| veeeight wrote: |
| If by "stomp" you mean extend out laterally, then yes. |
I did, but to extend laterally you have to push your body away from you skis, don't you? At the top of the turn that means pushing yourself downhill after the cross under.
Anyway that's carving not steering
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Guys, you're doing too much and not allowing enough. Skiing is moving from balance to balance in motion. All this stomping, twisting, turning, etc. is a lot of extra effort that you don't actually need to be doing. By picking line (skiing the slow line as fast as you can, when you can, to quote Bob Barnes) and using the skis' design, many of these movements become very subtle and used only for minor adjustments.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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ssh, it may not be needed, but it feels good.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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ssh, At a recreational skier level, yes, I agree. At an athlete level, the graceful like dynamic skiing is only possibly because all the correct muscle groups are being fired in the correct sequence.
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| Quote: |
but to extend laterally you have to push your body away from you skis, don't you? At the top of the turn that means pushing yourself downhill after the cross under.
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Hmmm. Not really. Think about keeping the CoM (body) where it is, and extend the legs out from under the body.
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Anyway that's carving not steering
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Put that tin opener away!
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| veeeight wrote: |
| ssh, At a recreational skier level, yes, I agree. At an athlete level, the graceful like dynamic skiing is only possibly because all the correct muscle groups are being fired in the correct sequence. |
Yes, but that does not mean that we're forcing anything, pushing out on anything, or otherwise "making" something happen. We're allowing it to happen, balancing on our edges, and responding with strength to the forces as we move in balance into the future.
I've got to get the first EpicSki podcast edited! Deb talks about this in her answers to some of the technical questions...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| veeeight wrote: |
| Quote: |
but to extend laterally you have to push your body away from you skis, don't you? At the top of the turn that means pushing yourself downhill after the cross under.
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Hmmm. Not really. Think about keeping the CoM (body) where it is, and extend the legs out from under the body. |
I may not be explaining the feeling too well. All I'm actually trying to do is bend the skis, it might feel to me like I'm pushing myself down the hill when in fact I may only be extending my legs as the skis bend.
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| marc gledhill wrote: |
| veeeight wrote: |
| Quote: |
but to extend laterally you have to push your body away from you skis, don't you? At the top of the turn that means pushing yourself downhill after the cross under.
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Hmmm. Not really. Think about keeping the CoM (body) where it is, and extend the legs out from under the body. |
I may not be explaining the feeling too well. All I'm actually trying to do is bend the skis, it might feel to me like I'm pushing myself down the hill when in fact I may only be extending my legs as the skis bend. |
There ya go! Long is strong! And you need to counteract the forces especially in the belly of the turn... Well done! 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
Yes, but that does not mean that we're forcing anything, pushing out on anything, or otherwise "making" something happen.
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Have to disagree there. If I'm skiing bumps I'm making sure I push my feet ahead of my CoM as I approach the bump, and pull my feet back and/or re-centre on the back of the bump (ala Bob's backpedalling).
If I'm skiing crud or heavy powder I'm making sure (placing) my feet are ahead to catch my CoM.
If I'm skiing highly edged turns I'm working the ski fore-aft, as well as bending my lower joints laterally to create increasingly more angulation.
Look at the Rousseau short turns video. He is working all his muscles, firing up his core, working his skis fore-aft, steering his skis on the edge (not park and ride).
I watched Nick H on the ESA video steer his skis on the steeps. He sure isn't just riding the sidecut.
I am *making* all those things happen. I'm not standing and tipping my skis on their egde and railing them. If that's what a recreational skier wants to do, that's fine. I'm seeking performance out of my skis.
Watch Michael Von Gruenigen's video above. He sure as hell ain't standing on those skis, tipping and waiting for something to happen. He's working them. Steering those skis on the edges. Increasing edge angles. Decreasing edge angles. Re-centreing. Cross-over. Diagonal projection. Extending. Flexing.
He's turning those skis. Not riding the sidecut.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| veeeight wrote: |
| Quote: |
Yes, but that does not mean that we're forcing anything, pushing out on anything, or otherwise "making" something happen.
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Have to disagree there. If I'm skiing bumps I'm making sure I push my feet ahead of my CoM as I approach the bump, and pull my feet back and/or re-centre on the back of the bump (ala Bob's backpedalling).
If I'm skiing crud or heavy powder I'm making sure (placing) my feet are ahead to catch my CoM.
If I'm skiing highly edged turns I'm working the ski fore-aft, as well as bending my lower joints laterally to create increasingly more angulation.
Look at the Rousseau short turns video. He is working all his muscles, firing up his core, working his skis fore-aft, steering his skis on the edge (not park and ride).
I watched Nick H on the ESA video steer his skis on the steeps. He sure isn't just riding the sidecut.
I am *making* all those things happen. I'm not standing and tipping my skis on their egde and railing them. If that's what a recreational skier wants to do, that's fine. I'm seeking performance out of my skis.
Watch Michael Von Gruenigen's video above. He sure as hell ain't standing on those skis, tipping and waiting for something to happen. He's working them. Steering those skis on the edges. Increasing edge angles. Decreasing edge angles. Re-centreing. Cross-over. Diagonal projection. Extending. Flexing.
He's turning those skis. Not riding the sidecut. |
Fine. Although I disagree with some of the nuances of what you're saying, I'll leave that for now and say this: Until you can limit your athletic movements and muscle use to only what is absolutely necessary to have the ski do what it is designed to do, adding other muscle forces into your turns is a disservice.
Since most recreational skiers are unclear when to apply which movements and when not to do them, I think it is far better to help skiers back off, understand all that the skis can do on their own, and then dial additional movement back in as necessary to advance their personal skiing goals.
Twisting/steering is just the most obvious example. Most recreational skiers use it instead of tipping and pressure to force a result that doesn't actually occur. Talking about the ability of exceptional skiers such as Nick and Michael misses the place that most of those skiers find themselves, and the skill mix that they need to develop.
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| Quote: |
Until you can limit your athletic movements and muscle use to only what is absolutely necessary to have the ski do what it is designed to do, adding other muscle forces into your turns is a disservice.
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100% agree with you there
Re the steering, here's my take:
Steering is made up of 3 elements - Pivot, Edge, and Pressure Control. When I teach, I try to blend all 3 of these. The proportions of each will vary according to objectives, and terrain. Right from the start I will teach that different blends of those 3 elements will produce different results and different turn types. I truly believe in teaching the different blends - in the process, using the ski design to help my clients ski efficiently and effectively.
(which is essentially what you said in post #3 of this thread!)
But why, you ask, the focus on pivoting (leg rotation)? Because like Warren, I believe that not enough recreational skiers know how to steer their skis effectively. The mountain is full of recreational skiers who put in turn after turn after turn, but have to throw in a huge hockey stop after about 10 turns because they are going too fast. They don't know how to finish/complete their turns to control their speed. Pivoting/Leg Rotation is the safest method to teach an early intermediate how to finish their turns, as opposed to just tipping the ski on it's edge to see it accelerate away!
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You know it makes sense.
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marc gledhill, We've got this far, I might as well answer your question.....
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| My problem is that I'm now being asked to seperate the function of each ski a little more. Carve the outside, but steer the inner. This is what's frying my brain. |
To me, carving is not about tipping the ski onto it's edge and staying there. That's "railing", or "riding the sidecut" or "park and ride". Good carved turns involve increasing the edge angle continually, and working the ski fore-aft, until the end of Phase 3 of the turn.
If you just tip your skis onto edge and ride the sidecut, you're not steering the skis. You're being taken where the ski wants to take you.
So. In a carved turn, you can alter the turn radius by:
1. Increasing the edge angle throughout the turn
2. Buiulding up more pressure, bending the ski more
3. Introducing a pivot WHILST THE SKI IS ON AN EDGE - ending up not with a pencil thin track, but a slightly thicker track than if you had just railed it. But still tramlines/railroad tracks.
Because all the 3 actions above lead to a change in the turn radius, this leads to a change in the direction in which the skis were originally going. You have, in effect, steered your skis. You are steering your skis, albeit, whilst carving.
So. when you are asked to carve the outside ski, but steer the inside ski, it doesn't necessarily mean two opposite things. In most cases when I yell out "steer your inside ski" to someone who is carving past me - it usually means their inside ski is at a different edge angle to their outside ski, or it's tracking off in a different direction, or there is no pressure evident against it.
I hope that helps.
PS: This is where HH is vastly misunderstood. He focuses on all those methods to change the radius of a turning ski. None of those are rotary movements as the majority of skiers would recognise. He talks about steering, which is what I've described above, increasing edge angle, building pressure (different to rotaty movements) and he talks about a secondary or passive rotary movement, which is #3 above.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Fri 6-10-06 17:44; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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veeeight, thanks for that clear description. I'm too much of a 'park and ride' guy, and need to work the turn shape more this season. The only way I could alter my turn radius last year was to swap my GS skis for slalom skis 
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Poster: A snowHead
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veeeight, Ha! Gotcha in the end, persistance pays off 
This bit
| veeeight wrote: |
| So. when you are asked to carve the outside ski, but steer the inside ski, it doesn't necessarily mean two opposite things. In most cases when I yell out "steer your inside ski" to someone who is carving past me - it usually means their inside ski is at a different edge angle to their outside ski, or it's tracking off in a different direction, or there is no pressure evident against it. |
Is especially helpful and very welcome.
I'd heard "steering" and presumed it meant twisting or foot steering only.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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veeeight, I'm pretty sure that HH would disagree with your interpretation of his "passive rotary" being your #3, since for him rotary is always a result, not a cause.
That said, I agree with your three items, but I tend to use them as a progression from one to three, teaching them in that order, as opposed to trying to have a skier understand them all at once.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| marc gledhill wrote: |
| I'd heard "steering" and presumed it meant twisting or foot steering only. |
That's because it often does! It's an overloaded term in skiing, unfortunately. And we're running out of ones that aren't!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| ssh wrote: |
veeeight, I'm pretty sure that HH would disagree with your interpretation of his "passive rotary" being your #3, since for him rotary is always a result, not a cause.
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OK, my #3 is closer to his "brushed carved" definition. I'm not really clued up about his passive rotary, I'm not a PMTS coach. From my understanding though, his passive rotary is very very close to what Warren Smith teaches, move the inside thigh across first, the outside will follow. HH's difference is that if you tip tip of the phantom foot this will bring about a passive rotary in the outside ski. I can see that.
HH's main beef (and mine with advanced level skiers) is the rotary at the transition. He has no problem with a brushed carved throughout the (carved) turn.
I call it a "scarve"....
Also - whilst we're on the subject of HH - many many people (including lots of instructors) fail to distinguish his teaching methodology from technique. And so believe the preaches one thing and does another.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Fri 6-10-06 19:29; edited 5 times in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| marc gledhill wrote: |
| veeeight wrote: |
| Quote: |
but to extend laterally you have to push your body away from you skis, don't you? At the top of the turn that means pushing yourself downhill after the cross under.
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Hmmm. Not really. Think about keeping the CoM (body) where it is, and extend the legs out from under the body. |
I may not be explaining the feeling too well. All I'm actually trying to do is bend the skis, it might feel to me like I'm pushing myself down the hill when in fact I may only be extending my legs as the skis bend. |
Just to tidy this up now.... when I say extend the legs from under your body - I imagine that my skis are knives, and I'm slicing a loaf of bread.
So I'm not pushing by hand away from the knife, nor am I pushing the knife sideways against the loaf of bread.
I'm slicing the loaf of bread using the fore-aft motion of my skis, when I'm extending my legs out laterally.
And this is where base bevel angles come into play. With a 0.5 deg base bevel, you are hooked up onto the edge very very quickly, and in order to extend your legs laterally using a scarve or clean carve, you need thigh muscles like Bode. Most skiers (including myself) would be better off using a base bevel of 1 deg, this will enable you to extend your legs out laterally without the use of the Herminator's thighs.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| veeeight wrote: |
| ssh wrote: |
veeeight, I'm pretty sure that HH would disagree with your interpretation of his "passive rotary" being your #3, since for him rotary is always a result, not a cause.
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OK, my #3 is closer to his "brushed carved" definition. I'm not really clued up about his passive rotary, I'm not a PMTS coach. From my understanding though, his passive rotary is very very close to what Warren Smith teaches, move the inside thigh across first, the outside will follow. HH's difference is that if you tip tip of the phantom foot this will bring about a passive rotary in the outside ski. I can see that.
HH's main beef (and mine with advanced level skiers) is the rotary at the transition. He has no problem with a brushed carved throughout the (carved) turn.
I call it a "scarve"....
Also - whilst we're on the subject of HH - many many people (including lots of instructors) fail to distinguish his teaching methodology from technique. And so believe the preaches one thing and does another. |
You may be right, but that's not how I interpret what he says. Who really knows?
I think of all the brushing as the result of carrying a lower-than-critical edge angle. The skis break free as a result of the edge angle versus turn forces, so they "drift". I have called them "scarved turns", as well.
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| veeeight wrote: |
| And this is where base bevel angles come into play. With a 0.5 deg base bevel, you are hooked up onto the edge very very quickly, and in order to extend your legs laterally using a scarve or clean carve, you need thigh muscles like Bode. Most skiers (including myself) would be better off using a base bevel of 1 deg, this will enable you to extend your legs out laterally without the use of the Herminator's thighs. |
Your slicing stuff is right on!
But, I don't think that this follows. Base bevel is usually more a result of typical conditions and the technique you like to use. If you're more of a carver and skiing harder snow, you may prefer lower bevels. Most typical skiers, though, are best served by a nice 1 degree base, 3 degree side bevel. Playing with these can be an interesting experiment.
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veeeight, Fancy coming to Panorama for a day in January? I'll treat you to lunch
well, I'm quite amazed by the amount of responses, getting rather technical! I must admit, I don't conciously remember turning my feet/skis, I suppose the more I think about it the more I guess I did do so.
| Quote: |
| The mountain is full of recreational skiers who put in turn after turn after turn, but have to throw in a huge hockey stop after about 10 turns because they are going too fast. They don't know how to finish/complete their turns to control their speed. |
I find I do this. I just get more and more speed to the point I'm getting too far out of my comfort zone and slightly out of control. How would you control this more and therefore keep a nice controlled speed all the way? I would just love to ski a harder track without stopping in one nice long ski all the way down. I do find, I also get very tired hence I have to stop anyway - I guess technique and fitness will aid this.
Now, Anyone who has the latest Snow and Rock winter sports catalogue, please see page 63. On the top photo there's a guy in a red Spyder jacket, doing what seems to be a strange maneuvour (to me!). He is leaning to the left, turning to the left, and also strangely, only skiing on his left ski. His right leg is just in the air. Is this right, a technique that's worthy of anything?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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eddyr, two methods of controlling your speed: one is to allow your skis to drift, creating friction between the skis' edges and the snow, slowing you down. A second is to use the force of gravity by turning all the way uphill on each turn. Keeping in mind that turning downhill will always mean that you go faster, you shouldn't turn downhill until you want to...go faster.
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| eddyr wrote: |
I just get more and more speed to the point I'm getting too far out of my comfort zone and slightly out of control. How would you control this more and therefore keep a nice controlled speed all the way? I would just love to ski a harder track without stopping in one nice long ski all the way down. |
Think about steering your skis in a round arc back up the hill, before you start your next linked turn. Use turn shape to control your speed. Make "c" shaped turns all the way down the run.
| Quote: |
Now, Anyone who has the latest Snow and Rock winter sports catalogue, please see page 63. On the top photo there's a guy in a red Spyder jacket, doing what seems to be a strange maneuvour (to me!). He is leaning to the left, turning to the left, and also strangely, only skiing on his left ski. His right leg is just in the air. Is this right, a technique that's worthy of anything? |
1. He's doing swedish turns
2. (more likely) - it's a recovery move beause he's got outta shape frm the turn before, and just about to eat it....
Don't try to emulate that picture!
Reasonable skiing pics:
pg.81, top right, red eider jacket
pg.211, top pic of the 3 smaller ones. Is that Warren? Skis are slightly diverging, everything else is good.
| Quote: |
| veeeight, Fancy coming to Panorama for a day in January? I'll treat you to lunch |
Come and ski with Dempsey Tours instead in Whistler! Will be at the London Ski Show. See you there!
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FAQ
