 Poster: A snowHead
|
| PeakyB wrote: |
Therein lies the problem. A good organisation should have the structure, rules and oversight in place to assure an adequate service all the time, with excellent service from individual instructors sometimes.
ESF doesn’t do that, so it’s a failure of management and organisation. |
That seems a fair analysis of why they get bad press - but not universally.
I wonder if anyone from ESF ever looks at Snowheads (or if they are capable of responding to constructive criticism).
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
if you have the time and the money get a non esf company, I like the way basi teach but then ive done a bit of their path way so am probably a bit biased; if on a budget and you need some childminding on skis then book esf 
ive done both and in my opinion esf is a waste of money..... a week of "follow me" with 12 kids in the class, pointless...... you would be better off spending the same amount of cash and getting brit school or even a private instructor for less time.....
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Wed 9-10-24 10:39; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Quote: |
I like the way basi teach but then i've done a bit of their path way so am probably a bit biased
|
We forgive you - after all you can't say BASI without bias... *rimshot*
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| hammerite wrote: |
*The one bad experience was when he was in the snow garden type thing and a battleaxe of an instructor wouldn't let him go to the toilet even though they were near one. He subsequently wet himself. It was fun trying to get his bootliner dry in time for the next day when the boot warmers in our hotel weren't great. We went to talk to ESF the following day and the instructor wasn't there (and didn't appear back all week). He had a great time the rest of the week. |
Same here.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| davidof wrote: |
| A school friend of my son's was abandonned on the slopes by an ESF group when she was about 12 |
And same here. Except he’s a boy and was about 5.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
@Richard_Sideways, to be fair I've come across a few basi instructors who work for ESF and there biggest gripe is for the punters if you get one of the guys who are still teaching in their late 60's - 70's to supplement their pension then its generally a complete and utter waste of time and they were very embarrassed about it...... there are undoubtedly some great ESF instructors out there but for me the whole business model sucks..... stack it high, sell it high......
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| davidof wrote: |
I asked my son, who has had a lot more contact with the EsF than me, what he thought of them.
But none of it is printable. |
And same again. Eventually he just flat out refused to go with ESF.
A sample size of one, to be fair. Well, two, the ‘no toilet stop’ trip also featured his cousin.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| ajc2260626 wrote: |
if you have the time and the money get a non esf company, I like the way basi teach but then ive done a bit of their path way so am probably a bit biased; if on a budget and you need some childminding on skis then book esf
ive done both and in my opinion esf is a waste of money..... a week of "follow me" with 12 kids in the class, pointless...... you would be better off spending the same amount of cash and getting brit school or even a private instructor for less time..... |
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
@ajc2260626, now, were you at half term/vacs scolaire or not? Makes an enormous difference.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Wed 9-10-24 10:41; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@under a new name, can you rephrase? completely over my head that one 
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| admin wrote: |
(poor ESF instrutor)
The girl in the office said, "Well he is old. Maybe he is not so good with children."
"So why did you give him 13 of them?"
|
While in no way trying to justify the instructors behaviour one factor that can come in to play here is that all ESF instructors are required to teach a certain number of ESF hours each year to keep their ESF 'grading'. Don't do enough and your grading drops and the lower your grading the more of that time has to be spent teaching at lower levels, group lessons and especially childrens group ski school generally being at the bottom ladder - and the lower down the ladder the lower the pay. As a result being injured/independent guiding off piste/falling out with the head of the ski school in town can see the 'best' instructor/guide in a resort forces to teach on the bottom rung of the ladder. Now that shouldn't make any difference to the instructors behaviour, their professionalism shining through...or they could be a privileged dick who sees it as beneath them so they just run down the clock on the lesson.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
duplicate post 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Our kids went through the ESF system up to gold, but they had the advantage of being bilingual and living in France. The experience varied; my son had some great teachers; my daughther, who was less than gung-ho about skiing, had a mixed experience, but hey, they only lost her once!
I've taken lessons with Swiss, Italian, US and French instructors and really, it just depends on the one you get. I cannot imagine that ESF instructors are any better or worse overall than any national teaching group. The best lesson I had in terms of progress was with an ESF instructor and the worst was an Italian (sudtiroler).
A tip I always tell people who want to take lessons in France: The 2-hour private lessons over lunch are a much better deal than even all-day group lessons. You'll get one-on-one or two-on-one undivided attention for 2 hours at the least crowded time of day. What's not to like?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
@ajc2260626, were you there at vacances scolaire, half term (or xmas or new year) ?
As the experience at very high season is probably going to be wildly different vs any other time of year.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
@under a new name, ah right..... ive actually done peak and non peak, mid dec for instance......I just think that the average standard of teaching they provide for the money they charge isn't very good...... the class sizes are way too big esp for kids classes, some of the older instructors are teaching stuff that went out of fashion twenty years ago.
but I would agree, if you are going a a non kids holiday time of year you would expect to get a better experience but not guaranteed
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Quote: |
I've taken lessons with Swiss, Italian, US and French instructors and really, it just depends on the one you get.
|
Agreed.
The worst was a Canadian followed by an Italian. The Canadian just hurtled down the piste then turned around and waved us down one at a time, offered a word or two then bombed off again. No way could any of us emulate him or really try and see what he was trying to teach.
We did once book a private lesson with the ESF. I sort of realised that that he was allocated to do private lessons because he was not very good and they couldn't trust him with groups.
However, group lesson with the ESF have always been good.
The best lesson was with a Scot who taught us how to ski bumps.
I'm sure there are good Canadian instructors and not all Scottish ones are brilliant. It just depends.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
@ajc2260626, yes, exactly my point. Vacs scolaires in general and locals and brits in particular, they round them all up from the bars, graves, retirement homes and stretch lessons to maximum capacity at least for kids. Hard to see what else could be done.
Otherwise, given the seasonal nature of the job, it's equally easy to see why it doesn't always work. Not an excuse, just a function of the inevitable.
I know some fantastic ESF instructors. I've also seen some terrible situations, but also from e.g. Evo2, and independents.
I've also had brilliant and terrible dentists.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| under a new name wrote: |
| @ajc2260626, yes, exactly my point. Vacs scolaires in general and locals and brits in particular, they round them all up from the bars, graves, retirement homes |
I know a couple of "retiree" ESF instructors who are absolutely brilliant at skiing and instructing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
@davidof, I do too. But I also see the problem cases every year 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
@under a new name, I bet. Probably easier for small structures to control the quality of the product and not dilute it during peak periods.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
My last lesson with an ESF instructor (which was my first day snowboarding) was, from memory, absolutely fine; a guy dealing with three 20-something Brits who were trying hard to listen but just kept mucking around but he turned me and my friends into people who could at least stop and not fall over as much. We couldn't expect much more from 2hrs.
We took our kids to France at easter and my son wanted to do snowboarding; had a 3hr one-to-one with ESF and he came back able to to to a decent standards and he was happy, I was happy and it felt like we got great value.
We did use the instructors in Andorra once when we learned to ski and I will say the school in Arinsal was excellent; cost-wise it was great, but the instructors were on another level of happy and helpful, and they taught me and my wife how to grasp the basics of skiing really quickly so we could enjoy what time we had left that week.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You're always gonna find grumpy ski instructors, in every country.
The job can be soul-destroying.
You spend years training. Become a semi-elite athlete.
And then you spend most days puttering around the bunny slopes with beginners at 5mph in the freezing cold.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
We did use the instructors in Andorra once when we learned to ski and I will say the school in Arinsal was excellent;
|
I think the best instructor/guide I've ever has was in Pas. He was a nutter but we learned so much with him. The original group was about 10 but after 2 days it was just me and 2 young Scottish couples 
I'm not sure I'd want to do it now but I wish I'd has a few more weeks like that 20 years ago.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
@Specialman, @musher, the interesting thing about Andorra is that they're the country most closely aligned with ESF. You can only work as an instructor in Andorra if you work for the resort owned ski schools. In effect, one organisation controls all the teaching in Andorra. As a result, they have a pretty tight reign on their instructors and are quite strict with certain rules (my stepson works for them). A lot of instructors are South American which means they are pretty much all year round instructors rather than seasonal.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@hammerite, Imthink most people are confusing the ESF with a ski school.
It's not, really, it's more like a union, done French style, and each ESF outpost is a franchise of its commercial brand.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| Whitegold wrote: |
You spend years training. Become a semi-elite athlete.
And then you spend most days puttering around the bunny slopes with beginners at 5mph in the freezing cold. |
This is a good point. I personaly know a couple that made some FIS points but today really enjoy giving to youngers what they learnt
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
@under a new name, yes so it seems. A school in one ski village can be managed in a very different way to one in a neighbouring village even if centrally there is some kind of overarching control (minimum standards/quality control/uniformity in branding and offer etc...).
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| under a new name wrote: |
| I think most people are confusing the ESF with a ski school. |
Well, if you take the Ski part out and the Ecole part out, you're left with 'Francais'... and yet we complain about a bastion of grumpy belligerence.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
@Richard_Sideways, titter
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
I don't think you can generalise about ESF. When the kids were younger they did ESF group lessons in La Rosiere x 3, Les Menuires x 2 and of those five experiences (evidently all in school holidays), three were good, one was meh and one was bad. Perhaps no coincidence that the bad one was when they were older, a bit better and wanted to cover more ground. Some ESF instructors are good, some are not as good. Your chances of getting a bad one probably increases during Vacances Scholaires when more instructors are required.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
In general, I like the ESF but, sadly, they do have a habit of shooting themselves in the foot with French "nonchalance" .
I found La Rosiere's ESF fantastic - any coincidence that it was run by an Englishman
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
My brother and I did ESf from Piou Piou garden all the way through to the race classes, and then joined ski club racing on the weekends in the UK.
This was across many different french resorts from the big Tignes, Val T, Les Arcs, to the less well travelled by the british, Valmorel, Valmeinier.
I would say they are very french in their teaching, and very inconsistent across resorts.
I had a horrible experience in the 3* class in one resort which i think any other child would probably have been traumatized and never skied again, it included being left on the mountain with one other british child and having to be rescued by the ski patrol.
Classes were always more enjoyable with other british kids in the class or with my brother in the same one. Some teachers knew no french ( not a problem its france) so was a good challenge of my french skills as a child.
My husband had fantastic snowboarding lessons in La Plagne as an adult but the group also included 2 very young children as they weren't running separate adults and kids lessons those weeks and the two kids found it very hard to keep up and my husband ended up effectively caring for a seven year old for the week during the lessons.
Now I have a baby I would likely put them in ESF for the nursery/creche set up, up to age 5 and then after that probably move to privates or a more anglo-friendly set up.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Liv7 wrote: |
My brother and I did ESf from Piou Piou garden all the way through to the race classes, and then joined ski club racing on the weekends in the UK.
This was across many different french resorts from the big Tignes, Val T, Les Arcs, to the less well travelled by the british, Valmorel, Valmeinier.
I would say they are very french in their teaching, and very inconsistent across resorts.
I had a horrible experience in the 3* class in one resort which i think any other child would probably have been traumatized and never skied again, it included being left on the mountain with one other british child and having to be rescued by the ski patrol.
Classes were always more enjoyable with other british kids in the class or with my brother in the same one. Some teachers knew no french ( not a problem its france) so was a good challenge of my french skills as a child.
My husband had fantastic snowboarding lessons in La Plagne as an adult but the group also included 2 very young children as they weren't running separate adults and kids lessons those weeks and the two kids found it very hard to keep up and my husband ended up effectively caring for a seven year old for the week during the lessons.
Now I have a baby I would likely put them in ESF for the nursery/creche set up, up to age 5 and then after that probably move to privates or a more anglo-friendly set up. |
Good post - I have booked my 3 year old grand-daughter into ESF ski kindergarten in Alpe D'Huez and her Mum and Dad (with me ) will review after
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Liv7 wrote: |
| Some teachers knew no french ( not a problem its france)... |
I guess that was a typo, a ski teacher in France not knowing any French would be impensable , Quelle horreur.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
Some more thoughts. I've noticed a difference between British (BASI) and French instructors I've met. French instructors seem to be less proactive with the teaching aspect. They will let minor faults slide while focussing more on the whole. While it is good not to be overloaded with "instruction" this can sometime leave nasty problems develop over time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
ESF quality varies. But generally, it's cheap. I'm surprised at the number of comments here about high cost. I just booked three grandchildren into "miniteam" lessons at Christmas with the local ESI. They cost a lot more than the bog standard group lessons. As you'd expect.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
ESF group lessons for kids in our local resort are around 8 euros an hour. Rather less, I suspect, than many middle class parents pay for day nurseries, especially in the south.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
As ski instructors "at home" (instructing on our dry slope) we have over multiple seasons in the Alps taken a great deal of interest watching instruction going on. Some ESF lessons look perfectly decent and constructive, but we have also witnessed some appalling behaviour. Saw an instructor once at Peisey who left a small child crying, flat on the slope, because she couldn't be bothered to go 50 metres upslope to rescue him! She just marched off and eventually a different instructor left his own group to effect the rescue. Another time in La Plagne an instructor lead a snake of ten year olds, at a speed they couldn't cope with. The back marker careered off the piste, under the netting and half way down the steep 10meter drop to the road. JanetS pursued the instructor, catching him after about 500m, where he hadn't even realised that he had lost one. I had to ski over, lay on the side of the piste and reach my ski pole down for the casualty to pull herself back up to the piste - she was terrified of moving in case she fell further towards the road.
That said, I have witnessed a couple of equally bad incidents in Italy!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Origen wrote: |
| ESF group lessons for kids in our local resort are around 8 euros an hour. |
In Chichester?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
