 Poster: A snowHead
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@mgrolf, evidence? Otherwise I would say that you are likely mixing percent and degrees up. Scandinavia is not famed for having steep runs and those would be exceptional gradients
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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For me getting fat skis changed my world. Went from nordica enforcer 100, which must be Skiied well to Bent Chetler 120 which just make everything fun. I could ski faster on the groomers but now the whole hill is easy to ski.
I can now learn to ski better as I can go everywhere and am not afraid.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Also I love touring poles so I can change the length and experiment with that
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| Quote: |
There are no pistes close to 45º
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Well from a Scottish perspective I have been on the Flypaper at Glencoe and measured it at 45 degrees, but granted it is for a relatively short duration 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rambotion wrote: |
| @mgrolf, evidence? |
Nothing that I can conclusively "prove" beyond doubt, but I've skiied them all and stopped to measure the slope on 2/3 (not the Tandådalen one) with an inclinometer. Carries all the usual caveats of measuring a short section of slope, alignment errors etc and no photos because it's hard to use an inclinometer and a camera on your own at the same time. But I am very definitely not mixing percentage gradient with degrees - aside from the numerical evidence from the inclinometer, I've also skied enough 40 degree couloirs to know what 40 degrees feels like.
Scandinavia is generally not that steep, but like all mountains, there are places that are, and they have a habit of putting a piste there for some reason
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@mgrolf, In the Alps as well, as per the two in Flaine I already mentioned, and I recall at least one (black #1 IIRC, they don't use names) in Engelberg. There must be quite a few pistes in others places as well with shorter pitches of around this gradient. More importantly though, we were talking about off piste, where one can often choose the more direct line.
There's at least half a dozen of the known routes in Engelberg with pitches of that gradient or more, depending on one's choice of line. One gully not far down from the start of the Laub has a long pitch of 60 degrees, perhaps a dozen longish turns, after which you stop, exhilarated, and look up at the underside of your mate's snowboard, before realising the the "run-out" that you're standing on is _still_ 45 degrees for another couple of hundred metres.
(Yes, I know that conventional wisdom says that snow won't stick on that gradient, but it seems to be a result of an odd combination of elevation and geography. I have used a clinometer to measure it, 'cos I didn't think it could really be that steep.)
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| motdoc wrote: |
| For me getting fat skis changed my world. Went from nordica enforcer 100, which must be Skiied well to Bent Chetler 120 which just make everything fun. I could ski faster on the groomers but now the whole hill is easy to ski. |
My Bent 120s I got last season are the third pair of fats I've owned and I love them for any off-piste, not just powder. They require a little work on hard pack, but are far from unmanageable, but I've been shot down in flames when I recommended them as a general freeride ski. Horses for courses, I say.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Thanks all for the very helpful comments.
For clarity the steep section I was struggling on in Flaine was a quite short section in a relatively narrow gap between some rocks. It was at the steepest end of what I have typically encountered on marked runs in France. It certainly wasn't the entire run (most of it was like a blue run). I'm realistic enough to know I won't be skiing sections such as this in a flowing way any time soon.
The point in respect of my skiing is that, in fresh snow, I can usually enjoy sections that are less steep (i.e. what instructors are typically happy taking groups on without avalanche equipment) at some point beyond that it feels like I suddenly loose it and start skiing defensively.
I had assumed that I lacked a nailed in off piste technique and I just need more practice but, as the helpful folk on here have pointed out, it seems this in fact is largely down to the more challenging conditions showing up general weaknesses in my skiing that are there the whole time.
I think there is also a significant mental element where I fail to properly commit (despite consciously intending to) which makes things worse.
As far as solutions go I feel I'll benefit most from some 1-1 coaching so I can focus on overcoming the specific weaknesses I have that are holding me back.
I have my ski trips all booked for next season as follows:
S21BB
Ischgl Feb HT with 10 year old
UCPA Family week Serre Chevalier Easter - UCPA group lessons included.
Focus on the Ischgl trip will 100% be on my son enjoying it so I won't be concerned with my own skiing particularly. This will be a good week to practice a bit on side piste though if conditions allow (any suggestions on this in Ischgl/Samnaun?).
Seems my best bet is looking for private lessons at the S21BB and trying to get the most out of the UCPA lessons.
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| motdoc wrote: |
| For me getting fat skis changed my world. Went from nordica enforcer 100, which must be Skiied well to Bent Chetler 120 which just make everything fun. I could ski faster on the groomers but now the whole hill is easy to ski. |
My Bent 120s I got last season are the third pair of fats I've owned and I love them for any off-piste, not just powder. They require a little work on hard pack, but are far from unmanageable, but I've been shot down in flames when I recommended them as a general freeride ski. Horses for courses, I say. |
Really would love to see footage of you skiing that gully off the Laub on your Bent Chetler 120s
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Mike Pow, Hah, yes. I don't live there any more, last time I did it would have been on my now long-retired Salomon Czar 121s. And no, I never got into the idea of filming myself skiing.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| @Mike Pow, Hah, yes. I don't live there any more, last time I did it would have been on my now long-retired Salomon Czar 121s. And no, I never got into the idea of filming myself skiing. |
Shame, that's some serious terrain
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[quote="Chaletbeauroc"]Diamant Noir in Flaine, does have a couple of pitches* approaching that...another one over towards Samoens ** that has a long pitch of around 42 degrees continuous**, which I have measured (inclinometer on compass) so some bits of it will be more than that.
So yeah, they're not common, but short sections of that steepness do exist. And those are just the on-piste parts, going off the edges, particularly of the first one, will find many drops where you may be steeper than that for two or three turns.++
* yeah, pitches - absolutely not things that are going to modify required powder technique per ++
** huh, I know the GM pretty well and can't think of that? Although a few new pistes went in a few years ago?
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You know it makes sense.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| another one over towards Samoens ** that has a long pitch of around 42 degrees continuous**, which I have measured (inclinometer on compass) so some bits of it will be more than that. |
** huh, I know the GM pretty well and can't think of that? Although a few new pistes went in a few years ago? |
(Checks on piste map)
I think it's the one called Aigle Noir, down from the Tete de Saix. I measured it one time when I was leading a SCGB group there 20+ years ago, 'cos somebody was wanting to know.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Mon 7-10-24 10:03; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@snowheid, well yes, I am just quoting what they claim. The flypaper (see pic.) is on the piste map and certainly has a decent section at around 45º, though you can bypass it by going further right. In some ways it feels more like off-piste.
This is what 45º looks like. (and perhaps the Scandinavian slopes are similar. Very interesting!)
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Mon 7-10-24 10:57; edited 6 times in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
For clarity the steep section I was struggling on in Flaine was a quite short section in a relatively narrow gap between some rocks.
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@Henwc
Adding restrictions (narrow) and danger (rocks) can make things much harder, even if it's just a mental thing. Being able to link flowing turns down a steep open face doesn't mean you can immediately do the same in a narrow couloir. Forcing yourself to stay in a tight corridor, on a wider slope, can be good practice, as it helps to avoid the "I'm not sure about this turn l, I'll just traverse a bit more until it's easier" mindset.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@mgrolf, Thanks, I think it would have been good practice for someone a fair bit better than me!
I was well into defensive mode, stance not right, too wide skis, overly deliberate pole plant and taking three quarters of the speed off on the upside of the next bump. Although I wasn't stopping I was refusing every other turn so there was more traversing and less fall line (and much less flow) than I was trying for. Each lap I came off feeling like I hadn't done a good job.
Thinking back it was well beyond my ability and I would have got a lot more out of hitting the side piste off the almandine red run directly underneath.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Chaletbeauroc, ah, yes, indeed, I should have thought of that. Nice bumps run.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@under a new name, Yes, there's a lot of steep terrain on that slope, some nice drops and gullies between that run and the Chamois black. Really should make a point of revisiting the GM one of these days. It's only an hour and a half away, so no excuses.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Mike Pow, Got me remembering stuff now... had to look it up, I think the one I was referring to is centre of picture on this map section. Topography checks out with my memory.
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@Henwc, the "mental element" is a big thing.
Not sure if there is an answer to it other than the usual mind tricks.
Some people are innately less or more inclined.
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@Layne, Yes, I feel like I am either confident and flowing or completely rubbish without much in-between.
My hope was that if I keep going back and forcing myself to ski the stuff I'm struggling with I'd eventually "crack it" and start being more confident.
so I found the run with the steep section and lapped it in challenging snow as a kind of kill or cure.
From what others have said a better approach may be to find something that I'm confident on but is still a bit of a challenge and practice on that instead.
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@Henwc, the problem with repeating tough stuff until you can do it (without external input) is that you might just end up finding a way to cope with that particular slope/snow but that is actually counter productive in other conditions.
The best way (in my opinion - usual caveats apply) is to find one or more instructors that you click with, can ski with more regularly (even if it's just once or twice a season) and can build up a relationship with. A good instructor who knows the limits of your skiing, and what your personal barriers are, can take you to places that will challenge you and help you to adapt your skiing in a good way. They can also see when you're getting tired or just plain freaked out, and do something about it before it becomes counterproductive.
At risk of being accused of drinking the kool aid, this is one of the great things about the bashes. By going on several PSBs, an EoSB or two and several other bashes, I've been able to spend a lot of time with several really good instructors who understand how to teach me personally and can help me to build on my skills year on year, rather than starting from scratch each time. I've also skied with a couple of great instructors who, for various reasons, I didn't quite click with* - which has helped me to understand a lot about how I learn, and what I need in an instructor/coach. This has been enormously helpful to me and my ability and confidence off piste has come on a long way because of this.
*This is more about me and how I learn, and not at all a comment on the abilities of the instructors. At least one of the instructors I didn't click with, is a favourite of another SH who is pretty much the same level as me.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| mgrolf wrote: |
| the problem with repeating tough stuff until you can do it (without external input) is that you might just end up finding a way to cope with that particular slope/snow but that is actually counter productive in other conditions |
Agreed, I'm trying to avoid bad habits.
I'm booked on the S21BB bash and I'm hoping to book some time with a private instructor, how does someone actually do this? Is it a case of looking at the resort website or it it possible to find an instructor on the bash thread? Sorry for asking such a basic question.
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@Henwc, I've not done either of the birthday bashes, so I'm not completely sure - but I think those are 2 where there isn't an instruction option. If I'm right, then ask for recommendations for local instructors based in the same resort. Start with the search on here - chances are, someone has already asked for instructors in the same resort. But if not, or there are no up to date recs, then prob best to start a thread with a specific title e.g. "Instructor recommendations in resort X".
For the bashes with instruction options (PSB, PiPAU, gnarli, SOPiB, EoSB) then there are usually buttons either when you book, or separately a bit ahead of the bash.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Henwc, I wouldn't put the pressure on myself to repeatedly ski a tough slope until I crack it. Apart from anything else you are going to get more frustrated, nervous, tired.
My approach is always to do what I enjoy - often mellow but then injecting a bit of gnarl every now and again. If I enjoy it, like the line, do it again. It does help if you know what's coming. To be fair I also ski the same resorts year after year which for off piste is good, because you build a knowledge of the routes and become more comfortable with the gnarl you know.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@mgrolf & @snowheid, Thanks for the guidance, on reflection it seems the BB may not be the best time for me to abandon my snowboarder friend and have a load of off piste lessons. So it sounds like I should pester the UCPA instructors for some off piste focus during the Easter trip.
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You know it makes sense.
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It sounds like I'll be focussing a bit on hitting the side piste on the next two trips (the January SH birthday bash and feb HT in Ischgl).
Gear wise I will be on mid mounted 176cm Faction Prodigy 1.0 freestyle twin tips with 90mm waist with rail bindings.
I am informed that shifting the mounting point back on these skis (using the rail bindings) will not offer any noticeable benefit so I'd expect them to remain mid mounted.
Are these skis going to hold me back if I'm trying out side piste?
I will definitely be on these for the birthday bash because we are driving but I would quite happily rent in Ischgl because I'm taking the train with my son and lugging the skis is a pain.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Henwc wrote: |
It sounds like I'll be focussing a bit on hitting the side piste on the next two trips (the January SH birthday bash and feb HT in Ischgl).
Gear wise I will be on mid mounted 176cm Faction Prodigy 1.0 freestyle twin tips with 90mm waist with rail bindings.
I am informed that shifting the mounting point back on these skis (using the rail bindings) will not offer any noticeable benefit so I'd expect them to remain mid mounted.
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Since these are on rail bindings, it’s easy enough to shift it back and forth to see if it makes any difference FOR YOU.
How often do you ski switched?
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Are these skis going to hold me back if I'm trying out side piste?
I will definitely be on these for the birthday bash because we are driving but I would quite happily rent in Ischgl because I'm taking the train with my son and lugging the skis is a pain.
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The point isn’t so much the skis “hold you back”. They’re fine for play on side of piste or even full on off-piste, once you figured out how to use them properly. It’s just fatter and softer planks makes learning easier.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| abc wrote: |
How often do you ski switched?
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I do a reasonable amount of switch I guess but mainly as part of flatland tricks like reverts/butters or landing switch from a jump. When I'm skiing with my son I mix things up a bit because he's a bit slower than me. My boarder friend is quite into tricks etc so we often hit the park and I'll definitely do some switch landings.
I'm less likely to bother with switch skiing in lessons or when I am on my own.
I don't really mind loosing the twin tips though because I'll just do other fun stuff.
EDIT: All the mentioned tricks are done with more enthusiasm than skill 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Henwc wrote: |
It sounds like I'll be focussing a bit on hitting the side piste on the next two trips (the January SH birthday bash and feb HT in Ischgl).
Gear wise I will be on mid mounted 176cm Faction Prodigy 1.0 freestyle twin tips with 90mm waist with rail bindings.
I am informed that shifting the mounting point back on these skis (using the rail bindings) will not offer any noticeable benefit so I'd expect them to remain mid mounted.
Are these skis going to hold me back if I'm trying out side piste?
I will definitely be on these for the birthday bash because we are driving but I would quite happily rent in Ischgl because I'm taking the train with my son and lugging the skis is a pain. |
I Would suggest that you move towards something more like 100 mill underfoot to progress your off piste. Something just a little wider than an all mountain ski moving towards free ride.
If you're going to have a dedicated off piste day, something even wider Will make it easier for you to focus on your off piste technique , although probably slightly harder on piste but if you're doing tricks you sound perfectly capable of handling them on piste.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@rickboden, Thanks, if I rent in Ischgl I'll drop in a special request in for something a bit fatter. Always fancied a go on full rocker Armada ARGs
Truth be told my tricks a bit sketchy...
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FAQ
- maybe we shouldn't believe everything we read in print 
