 Poster: A snowHead
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When they get this working they might want to steer clear of using Crowdstrike in their IT landscape 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Hurdy wrote: |
As I understand it there are no fast lanes....you go through providing your biometrics each time you cross the border.
EU countries may include the UK in the national facilitation programme which reduces the number of checks required but this is for them to decide. |
e-gates and the passport booths at Geneva have fingerprint scanners (I assume the e-gates have facial scanners too). So yes, your biometrics will be checked against what’s on the system, but this is checking against the database, not re-recording them.
The initial check is fingerprints AND face, and then (I think) confirmation from a member of the border force. At Geneva (C gates) I was assuming the machines by the window at the end are for initial checks then subesquent ones can be done elsewhere - but i guess we’ll see!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Am I the only person wary of fingerprint scanners. They don’t seem to be very reliable especially if I’ve been rock climbing or other activities where I’ve had to take my hands out of my pockets.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I have the same problem when I've been handling rough materials (bricks etc). I rub down the definition on the fingers and my phone scanner often won't recognise the print.
Fortunately, you only have to do the finger scanner on the first visit, when they are recorded on the system. After that, presumably it's linked to your passport details on their system, so entry should be similar to the existing systems.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@brianatab, they’ll scan either fingerprints or face on subsequent visits to match them to what is on the system. That replaces a border official looking at the photo in your passport. The system then records your entry/exit, which replaces the stamp.
So hopefully an automated process…
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| andy from embsay wrote: |
e-gates and the passport booths at Geneva have fingerprint scanners (I assume the e-gates have facial scanners too). So yes, your biometrics will be checked against what’s on the system, but this is checking against the database, not re-recording them.
The initial check is fingerprints AND face, and then (I think) confirmation from a member of the border force. At Geneva (C gates) I was assuming the machines by the window at the end are for initial checks then subesquent ones can be done elsewhere - but i guess we’ll see! |
I think you're right in saying that when EES is operational, we'll be back to using e-gates. From the official site:
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The main advantage of the EES is saving time. The EES replaces passport stamping and automates border control procedures, making travelling to European countries using the EES more efficient for the traveller.
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This must mean that everyone eligible under EES will be able to use e-gates, and it would make sense that they are the same e-gates that are currently used by EU citizens. Even if e-gates are segregated, it should be quicker and easier compared to now when it's up and running.
| rob@rar wrote: |
| That’s how I assume it will work. Single queue for all non-EU passports - those people who have already done the biometric registration will spend slightly less time getting through once they get to the desk/gate, those people who are doing the initial registration (or 3-year renewal?) will spend a bit longer getting through. But everyone is in the same queue, just like it is currently when you enter the US (unless you have registered for their Global Entry pre-screened programme). |
That seems unlikely, given that the registration machines (which some of us have seen at GVA during the past few months) are not the border e-gates. I would have thought there will be two queues once the system is active, one queue for biometric registration, or entering via a passport control officer if the airport is overwhelmed, and a second queue for everyone else who can use the e-gates (EU + everyone already registered for EES).
I don't think EES has a 3-year renewal, you might be thinking of ETIAS, but I'm happy to be corrected!
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| johnE wrote: |
| Am I the only person wary of fingerprint scanners. They don’t seem to be very reliable especially if I’ve been rock climbing or other activities where I’ve had to take my hands out of my pockets. |
We are no longer involved in community pharmacy, but many of them dispense monitored dosage systems for people who cannot manage their medication. Popping the tablets out of their original blister packs leaves small abrasions on the pads of the fingers and thumbs.
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Finger print systems and scanners in my experience (implemented a payroll system using finger scanners to record work time) did not hold your entire finger print. They record and look for characteristic points , seven points seemed to be the case years ago.
I am not sure if this was a data capacity issue but more of a privacy thing and seven points were just the magic number that got acceptable level matches. So maybe its changed now.
Also we had employees who were printers , also moonlighted as cat burglars, whose hands came into contact with solvents that “dissolved” their prints so they were a bit tricky but a few fingers would usually be ok, so we processed at least three fingers.
But also Im sure the scanning techniques and technology have moved on to improve scanning quality.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Wed 24-07-24 9:54; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@ster, I decided to readup on fingerprint scanner technology and discovered that the likes of the US immigration system use much more refined sensors, muliple fingers etc. and suspect the Shengen systems would be similar. Though the shear number of Shengen entry points may add something to the complexity. This will be much better than the scanners on laptops, monile phones etc. so perhaps I shouldn't be so worried.
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| johnE wrote: |
| This will be much better than the scanners on laptops, monile phones etc. so perhaps I shouldn't be so worried. |
I wouldn’t say that’s guaranteed. They probably bought a job lot off some Chinese co years ago, which will send the data back to Peking
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Just be careful what you get on your hands in the last few days before going.
Even the smallest residue of gloss paint, glue, or worst of all, silicone on your fingers can prevent a full, clear scan.
Even some residual glue from a sticking plaster*, or spot of ink from a leaking pen could cause problems with a fingerprint scan (which is, essentially only a digital photograph).
If you don't get a clear print at the start, the system might accept it, but any subsequent check may flag as different, causing inconvenience and possible delays.
* Just had a thought. If you had a cut on your finger, and a plaster on it, would they make you take it off, or just wave you through if it's busy?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@brianatab, thats why thru should scan more than one finger, for these eventualities.
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You know it makes sense.
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@brianatab, they’re going to take 4 fingers of one hand.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@brianatab, I was under the impression that facial recognition was better than that?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Fingerprint checks are very quick compared to biometric images and more accurate.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Interview with UK ambassador to France in The Connexion asked about e-gates. Looks fairly positive.
We hear automatic passport gates will be updated so visitors can use them on future visits to go through faster?
My understanding is certainly that on the second entry with EES it is a simpler process and the real challenge is around the first time you come through in the requirement to give facial and fingerprint biometrics.
We are working hard with France and the Commission to make it as smooth and accessible as possible, especially at the juxtaposed controls at Dover, St Pancras and the tunnel. We are pushing for adaptations. I am very engaged in this. I have been to the lab where they are testing all the equipment ready to go live. And we are continuing discussions on this so as to reduce the risk
to border fluidity. That is a top priority for us.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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On the subject of finger prints, to add to the list of professions, Chefs rarely have a full set of prints as they get 'burnt off' holding hot pans etc
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I installed some fingerprint entry units for a customers access control system a few years ago (Suprema Bioentry if anyone is remotely interested) and have been in and out regularly using them since, they almost always seem to read my fingers regardless of what glue, silicone, caulk, abrasions or cuts are on them
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Well at least they delayed it long enough for me to renew my passport, and save doing it all again a few months later.
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Just arrived at Geneva. They’re installing loads more scanners - i counted 20.
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| andy from embsay wrote: |
| Just arrived at Geneva. They’re installing loads more scanners - i counted 20. |
I suspect this means there’ll still be EU and non-EU lines, but 20 scanners is way more than they ever have booths open. Assume they’ll be installing the same outbound as well.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
I suspect this means there’ll still be EU and non-EU lines
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Probably Shengen rather than EU.
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| johnE wrote: |
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I suspect this means there’ll still be EU and non-EU lines
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Probably Shengen rather than EU. |
Well yes, obviously that’s what I meant. Though of course it’s “Schengen and EU” as Irish passport holders use the same queue.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Wed 21-08-24 13:38; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@andy from embsay, how could there not be eu/not eu lines?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @andy from embsay, how could there not be eu/not eu lines? |
There are face/print scanners on the e-gates at Geneva - theoretically they could be used for both.
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Ireland and Cyprus are in EU but not in Schengen.
Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland are in Schengen but not in EU.
Andorra, Monaco, San Marino and Vatican City are de facto members of Schengen because they are too small to bother.
EES operates at Schengen borders but is a construct of th EU.
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You know it makes sense.
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@andy from embsay, I'm just being a bit thick I think.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| brianatab wrote: |
| Well at least they delayed it long enough for me to renew my passport, and save doing it all again a few months later. |
What do you mean by this presume each time a passport is renewed the system resets?
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Poster: A snowHead
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@James77, was thinking more of the Etias, which will need to be renewed every 3 years, or whenever your passport is renewed.
Initially, there will be literally, millions of applications just from the UK in a very short period. My current passport expires next February, so a replacement would have required repeating the process within 6 months, and probably have hit the summer surge and taken some time to process.
Every 3 year renewal period will see a similar surge in applications, which will only gradually be dispersed as passports are renewed over the next 10 years. Can't see the EU keeping staff allocated for the whole 3 years, just to facilitate the surges, so bound to be delays on renewals.
Guess it will always be about timings.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@brianatab, from what I understand ETIAS has a very soft implementation from earliest May 25 and for up to a year will not mandatory and even when is will get a 1 strike for forgetting so hopefully fine. I think EES is going to be a pain certainly initially.
May do a pre Christmas demi sec run to get a bit sorted before the Friday after boxing day when we criss for mew year skiing trip. Hopefully that release valve at bust times works out.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Evidently, those with residency cards and long-stay visas will not be affected, but I doubt that there will be a way to avoid the queues, for instance at a ferry terminal etc
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@brianatab, not sure there will be a lot of staff used. Etias will be actioned online and barring special cases approved automatically within minutes.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| andy from embsay wrote: |
| andy from embsay wrote: |
| Just arrived at Geneva. They’re installing loads more scanners - i counted 20. |
I suspect this means there’ll still be EU and non-EU lines, but 20 scanners is way more than they ever have booths open. Assume they’ll be installing the same outbound as well. |
Remains to be seen of course, but these machines installed next to the window at GVA seem to be machines to handle the initial registration onto EES. They are clearly not passport gates as there is no gate and they're on the wrong side of the building to facilitate exit. It looks like the first time entering when EES is active will be separate lines so that you can register for the system. After that, surely EU + EES will both use the existing automatic passport gates? There should be no need to install new machines outbound.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Fri 23-08-24 9:02; edited 1 time in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Not sure - seems a lot of machinery for initial registration (there’s way more of them than e-gates, for example). I have seen a schematic where they show people scanning at a machine but still walking past a manned booth.
EDIT: here you go. This says After using the self-service system, you can go to a border control lane, where the passport control officer will have already received:
information from the self-service system (including checks against other databases)
confirmation of your identity
the remaining duration of your stay
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@musehead, They’ve got about 15 or so where I took that photo, but then three more facing the area where the EU queue is (the left hand bank of booths). So I wonder if these are for initial registration and the three others are for when people have already registered? I’ll see what they’ve got for outbound on Sunday!
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I wonder if the Geneva setup is similar to the system they have on Cyprus.
Scan your passport at the machine and then get a print out which you take to a desk/person. Who double checks the paper and then bins it!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@skitrack, that’d make sense.
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Sounds like you're right - but it seems to defeat the point of the system if everyone still has to go to an officer anyway after using a machine who "may ask further questions". The whole point of the EES is to automate entry into the EU/Schengen. But they'll still need just as many staff as before, and processing times will surely not be sped up by much. Could even be slower depending how quick people are at using the machines.
I really wish they'd implement it the same as the UK, just allow everyone who doesn't need a visa to use the e-gates for citizens. The UK is so hassle-free to visit for anyone who doesn't need a visa.
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FAQ
). If your photo doesn't have facial hair, don't grow a beard before you travel. 
