 Poster: A snowHead
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@Je suis un Skieur, if they’re on a ‘learn to ski’ package for absolute beginners with a tour operator, sometimes the tour operator/ski school insist that the customer is an absolute beginner. Anyone that isn’t an absolute beginner can end up without lessons and without a lift pass due to the discounts and restrictions for this type of package.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@hammerite, sure, but that isn't the case here. Sounds very much like the OPs friend decided to come along with a bunch of more experienced people.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| abc wrote: |
| Still, majority of people took to it well enough to enjoy their holiday in the mountains without having to shell out extra in a frig first. |
Well they wouldn't in America, would they? There's only one fridge for 342m people and half the country has got real mountains in driving distance.
It's a very common way for Brits to first experience the sport. Only some Scots have real snow in driving distance, everyone else either goes to a fridge or buys an expensive holiday that they potentially get nothing out of.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Origen wrote: |
| @Jo225, it's still French peak holidays - so little spare capacity in any ski schools this week. |
Only the last week of Zone B, & not UK hols (always a consideration in La Plagne!), so I think it might be worth asking.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@abc, btw, I learnt to ski as a total adult beginner on a real mountain in the USA. On Monday morning there were 10 people in the class, by Wednesday lunchtime there were two. That's eight people with a lousy return on their investment.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I’ve had a couple of second hand experiences like this. Generally, it’s a difficult situation for the instructors and the learner.
One was last week for Jnr who instructs during the season. Last week he had a group who were all friends. One of the group was struggling. The rest of the group were not very supportive towards their friend. They just kept complaining to Jnr when he wouldn’t take them onto more challenging pistes. He said that he couldn’t take their friend on those slopes because it was dangerous at their current level. He recommended a number of times that they should organise 1:1s for their friend but they refused because they didn’t want to pay and wanted to keep their friend with the group. He remained diplomatic throughout the week but it was hard because the group wouldn’t take any of the options offered to them and just kept complaining.
Another is with school. I take classes skiing once a week (I supervise getting them there). I recommended to parents of new students that they get their children some lessons before the school programme started to help them. None of them did! The beginner/inexperienced group had 12 students and 2 instructors. All of the group did pretty well apart from 1 child. The instructors said it was making things difficult but they could deal with it. I asked if I should speak to the parents about paying for a 1:1 but the instructors said not to. They in effect had 1:1 for the struggling child whilst keeping the whole group together to maintain ratios with the instructor who was with struggling child watching out for the others and giving advice where they could. This child’s doing well now.
We now have a different child who is struggling and making it difficult for the group as they’ve all improved but this different child is just so afraid of anything steeper than nursery slopes and any increase in speed. Granted in the scenarios of the children is different to the OPs. 1. The kids aren’t paying for their own lessons (parents are). 2. They’re not on holiday most of these kids can ski whenever they want. 3. The instructors don’t have to have contact with the parents, they have contact with me and I deal with the parents… no complaints so far thankfully!
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| Je suis un Skieur wrote: |
| @hammerite, sure, but that isn't the case here. Sounds very much like the OPs friend decided to come along with a bunch of more experienced people. |
My comment was based on your post which said,
| Quote: |
Exactly.
And moreso, that if you don't take to it immediately but are still keen you can put in the additional practice and lessons prior to going on holiday to get you to a standard where you can join a ski school level above total beginner and enjoy far more of the mountain. I don't think there's too many people who would relish spending £1k+ just to see the nursery slopes, it's a poor return on investment both financially and emotionally. |
The absolute beginner deals are why some don’t have lessons before heading to the mountains.
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I've known several people who've just dropped out of ski school. One natural athlete (a top class wicket keeper, small, light and flexible who was seeing snow for the first time in his life) who did so because the group was SO slow and he got bored. Others - two women come to mind - because their hearts were never really in it, they never did any kind of sport, couldn't cope with any setbacks or discomfort and just gave up. One bloke who fancied himself as no end of a water skier and thought he'd just be a natural. But it's a very different sport. His wife listened to the instructor, did what she was told, and got on fine. He just couldn't cope with her being better at it than he was. We met them in Kapaonik, many years ago. She was really keen to go skiing again but it became clear that he wouldn't allow it. Very sad. He was a knob.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| hammerite wrote: |
| The absolute beginner deals are why some don’t have lessons before heading to the mountains. |
To which my reply would be that unless they're absolutely sure that it's what they really want to do and are suitably fit, co-ordinated, mentally capable, whatever, they'd be better off spending £150 in a snowdome first as a due diligence exercise. Also a lot of those holiday offers are often in otherwise quite limited resorts such as Bansko and are only offered as a good deal precisely because there isn't much to progress to. The OP's in the Paradiski, a great area for progressing intermediates but that's sod all use if you're stuck down in Champagny all week.
I was recommended to go to a snowdome before my first trip and discarded the advice, thinking it would be better to learn "in a real mountain environment". With hindsight, I was an idiot - I would have got far more out of my first trip if I already knew how to use the equipment, make a basic snowplough turn and stop. I reckon a one day course in a fridge advances most people at least 3 days' worth of two hour lessons on a mountain.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Tue 5-03-24 0:02; edited 1 time in total
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@Je suis un Skieur, I did do the lesson in a snow dome thing before my first holiday. I agree that it’s probably the best way. But people also get seduced by the difference in cost of absolute beginner packages against lessons/lift pass full or nearly full cost option.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Je suis un Skieur wrote: |
if you don't take to it immediately but are still keen you can put in the additional practice and lessons |
Let’s be realistic. A lot of the people aren’t exactly “keen” to learn to ski! They go because their mates are going, or their brother-in-law is going, or their boy friend insist they come along!
The OP’s friend is clearly one of those. He was there because his mates were there. (Maybe even urged him along just to fill the beds in the room!)
Many of those people wouldn’t have gone to any skiing holidays if they had to go to the frig first! And I wonder how many of those who gone to the frig actually go on to skiing holidays?
| Je suis un Skieur wrote: |
| or buys an expensive holiday that they potentially get nothing out of. |
“Potentially”, yes. Or potentially got a lot out of too!
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Tue 5-03-24 1:27; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| abc wrote: |
| Let’s be realistic. A lot of the people aren’t exactly “keen” to learn to ski! They go because their mates are going, or their brother-in-law is going, or their boy friend insist they come along! |
Interesting point. Perhaps you could explain this in the context of your previous post?
| abc wrote: |
The instructor was crap.
It’s always true that if the student fails, it’s because the teacher fails the student. |
My interpretation would be that you're saying even if the pupil's ill-prepared, puts no effort in and doesn't really want to be there, it's still the instructor's problem if they don't progress.
Frankly, that's contradictory nonsense. The US may live for litigation suits because it's always someone else's fault but in other parts of the world we take personal responsibility for things.
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| Je suis un Skieur wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
| Let’s be realistic. A lot of the people aren’t exactly “keen” to learn to ski! They go because their mates are going, or their brother-in-law is going, or their boy friend insist they come along! |
Interesting point. Perhaps you could explain this in the context of your previous post?
| abc wrote: |
The instructor was crap.
It’s always true that if the student fails, it’s because the teacher fails the student. |
My interpretation would be that you're saying even if the pupil's ill-prepared and doesn't really want to be there, it's still the instructor's problem.
Frankly, that's contradictory nonsense. The US may live for litigation suits because it's always someone else's fault but in other parts of the world we take personal responsibility for things. |
The point is, the ski school sold a bill of goods (“learn to ski”) and didn’t deliver!
The instructor maybe put in a hard place to either cater to the slowest student or the majority of the student. But it’s up to the ski school to figure out how to balance the two. If the ski school (perhaps wisely) expect their instructors to sacrifices some of the slow learners, they have some explaining to do to their customers.
It’s entirely possible the student in this case didn’t report the entirety of what the instructor said. But on the surface of the OP’s report, it’s the instructor who abandon the student. That’s not acceptable!
Perhaps my view is exactly why many people loves skiing in North America. Servicing the customer is of the top priority! If you chuck that up as “litigation” culture, then no wonder you get lousy services! 
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You know it makes sense.
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@abc, as someone else has already pointed out, it will be in the "bill of goods" for a group lesson that if you can't keep up and are restricting the progress of the other group members, you will be asked to leave, probably with a refund.
I would be amazed if the bill of goods for an American group lesson is any different.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
My interpretation would be that you're saying even if the pupil's ill-prepared, puts no effort in and doesn't really want to be there, it's still the instructor's problem if they don't progress.
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You got that right!
Even if the “solution” to that problem is to refund the student’s money, it needs to be put forth and clearly explained.
Other “solution” maybe to put the student in another beginner group the next day, if one exists. Or “credit” the student’s first day tuition towards a private (and find an instructor out of thin air, from the sound of it).
But leaving the student abandoned would be considered “crap” instructor in this side of the pond. Suddenly, I don’t feel the cost of group lessons on some of our mountains all that expensive after all. We clearly have a very different expectation of instructors.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| abc wrote: |
| Quote: |
My interpretation would be that you're saying even if the pupil's ill-prepared, puts no effort in and doesn't really want to be there, it's still the instructor's problem if they don't progress.
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You got that right! |
And you've got it wrong. The instructor's responsibility is to the group as a whole.
Perhaps before you start eulogising how great US ski school is, you should peruse just one example of the waiver you have to sign before joining a US ski lesson which basically signs away all of your civil rights and gives you no comeback whatsover for anything you disagree with.
https://www.vail.com/-/media/global/checkout/new-erol.ashx?la=en&hash=6482EEBC5AF92BA9200769249B9802A0
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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and this:
Limitation of Liability. You understand and agree that to the maximum extent permitted under applicable law, in no event will ANY OF THE Vail Resorts PARTIES be liable under any theory of liability (whether in contract, tort, statutory, or otherwise) for any direct, indirect, incidental, special, consequential, personal injury/wrongful death, punitive, or exemplary damages (Even if SUCH PARTIES WERE ADVISED OF, KNEW OF OR SHOULD HAVE KNOWN OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO AS A RESULT OF: (A) THE OPERATION OF OUR RESORTS, INCLUDING THE OPERATION OF RESERVATION OR REDUCED CAPACITY SYSTEMS, (B) YOUR USE OF OR INABILITY TO USE ANY SKI & RIDE SCHOOL PRODUCT, OR (C) ANY VIOLATION BY US OF these TERMS OR OTHER TERMS OR POLICIES REFERENCED HEREIN. NOTWITHSTANDING THE FOREGOING, SUCH LIABILITY WILL NOT IN THE AGGREGATE EXCEED THE AMOUNT YOU PAID FOR THE SKI & RIDE SCHOOL PRODUCT YOU PURCHASED.
If they kick you out for being useless, the maximum you'll get is a refund but if you read the refund rules too I doubt you'd even get that.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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or this:
No Guarantee. VAIL RESORTS DOES NOT MAKE ANY GUARANTEES WITH RESPECT TO SKI & RIDE SCHOOL PRODUCTS. For example, your purchase of any Ski & Ride School Product does not guarantee: (a) access to any resorts, facilities, amenities, or instructors at any given time or for any number of days or for any minimum number of days or (b) any particular guest experience or your satisfaction with your guest experience at or with any resorts, facilities, amenities, or instructors. Your admission to any resorts, facilities, or amenities is subject to, among other things, capacity constraints, closures, and staffing. Nothing in these Terms is a commitment by Vail Resorts to keep any resort, facilities, or amenities open for any particular period or amount of time and Vail Resorts reserves right to close any of its resorts, facilities, or amenities in its sole and absolute discretion. Vail Resorts is not obligated to sell you a Season Pass, a lift access product, or any other products or services and expressly reserves the right, in its sole and absolute discretion, to refuse to sell any products and services to you or any other person.
Satisfaction guaranteed, my ass!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Je suis un Skieur wrote: |
Satisfaction guaranteed, my ass! |
You clearly have an anti-Vail agenda (or maybe even an anti-US agenda?)
In such a case, there’s no point in continue the back and forth. You’re closed to other ideas and concepts. This is becoming only your platform to spew your biased opinion based only on misinformation.
In which case, I don’t have time to waste in listening to you spewing garbage.
BTW, he had clearly demonstrated his communication style, which I’m sure carried over from his teaching experience.  Enough said.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Je suis un Skieur, such limitations of liability are found throughout the industry, not just Vail Resorts. As for your rather tired refrain about how litigious the US is, so what? That's hardly germane to the OP. There are plenty of people here who do in fact take responsibility for their own actions....including people who wouldn't dream of delaying everyone else in their group or blaming the instructor because of their own difficulties. Looks like you're not one of them.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I think, to be honest, that the conversation has rather drifted; we have no idea from the original post as to the quality of the instructor nor the abilities of the learner skier. Depending on both of those, unknown, facts we might reach either the conclusion that the instructor was rubbish or that the learner was effectively unteachable in a group setting and the instructor needed to remove them from the class so that they didn’t negatively impact the whole group too much.
However, what the OP asked was what they should do to help in the situation.
I think that the answer to that is to take the time to see at what standard the learner can currently ski and then, as good friends, either encourage them to find another instructor who can help them or gently suggest that perhaps skiing isn’t for them and make sure that they have a good holiday in other ways. I used to join a group trip where two of a group of ten barely skied; but they still came every year and enjoyed themselves.
I also think that, as has been pointed out many times, learning on a dry slope or in a snowdome is best for adults - but that doesn’t help someone already there of course.
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I wonder if the other people in the OP friend's class were not absolute beginners? I've known a few people go back to a beginners class for a 2nd year. And in a peak week they probably just group everyone signed up for group lessons into classes based on ability.
If that were the case then I think ESF would be in the wrong. Their obligation is surely to provide at least one lesson at complete beginner level, even if that means only one person in the lesson and squeezing everyone else into higher lessons?
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| Quote: |
such limitations of liability are found throughout the industry, not just Vail Resorts.
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Exactly. Any n America guiding wether that's touring/cat/Heli will have some waiver with something along the lines of
" I agree to WAIVE ANY AND ALL CLAIMS that I have or may in the future have against [guiding company] from any and all liability for any loss, damage, expense or injury including death that I may suffer, or that my next of kin may suffer as a result of my participation in backcountry skiing, DUE TO ANY CAUSE WHATSOEVER, INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE. I UNDERSTAND THAT NEGLIGENCE INCLUDES FAILURE ON THE PART OF [guiding company] TO TAKE REASONABLE STEPS TO SAFEGUARD OR PROTECT ME FROM OR WARN ME OF THE RISKS, DANGERS AND HAZARDS OF PARTICIPATING IN BACKCOUNTRY SKI TOURING AND SPLITBOARDING."
Yes it's quite alarming in a lot of ways. But it's just industry standard. I guess at least you know where you stand, it's very black and white.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| abc wrote: |
| You clearly have an anti-Vail agenda (or maybe even an anti-US agenda?) |
You really don't get it do you? It's got nothing at all to do with being anti-US and I resent the accusation. Fot your information, I learned to ski in Breckenridge and had a great time and worked for both General Motors and Ford. I would happily retire to Colorado if I could.
I'm defending the rights of instructors anywhere against people like you that immediately apportion the blame on them when all they've heard is one side of a story from a third party:
| abc wrote: |
The instructor was crap.
It’s always true that if the student fails, it’s because the teacher fails the student. |
Your contention that this wouldn't happen in the US with statements like this is just nonsense:
| abc wrote: |
The point is, the ski school sold a bill of goods (“learn to ski”) and didn’t deliver!
... Perhaps my view is exactly why many people loves skiing in North America. Servicing the customer is of the top priority! If you chuck that up as “litigation” culture, then no wonder you get lousy services! rolling eyes |
Your jingoistic implication that American ski-school is so much better and it couldn't possibly happen there is what I object to.
All ski schools have issues like this, especially at peak times and that's exactly why they make you sign away all your rights before starting with them. You cannot hold back four people's development and progress because of one under perfoming individual because you have a contract and an obligation to deliver to those four people too.
The sentiment that "the customer is always right" is a load of BS. Every business in every industry has customers that cost them more time and money than they're worth. If the highly experienced and qualified ESF in Champagny has decided that the OP's friend is one of those, it is their right to do so.
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| Scooter in Seattle wrote: |
| @Je suis un Skieur, such limitations of liability are found throughout the industry, not just Vail Resorts. |
Of course they are. that's precisely the point.
| Scooter in Seattle wrote: |
As for your rather tired refrain about how litigious the US is, so what? That's hardly germane to the OP. There are plenty of people here who do in fact take responsibility for their own actions....including people who wouldn't dream of delaying everyone else in their group or blaming the instructor because of their own difficulties. Looks like you're not one of them. |
Looks like you're another one who's prepared to pass public judgement on a person you know nothing about
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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We don't seem to have had any more information from the OP which is disappointing. I am particularly interested if they tried what I, and some others, have suggested to determine what the real issue is and see if it can be resolved. I.e. take the "friend" to a flat section on the nursery slopes and see how they get on with putting skis on, moving around on them, and ability to get up from the ground with skis on. If all that works well, explore if there are any mental blocks. If the "friend" can't manage those simple tasks then, in a supportive way, find ways to ensure they can enjoy the mountains in other ways.
All the guff above is just supposition, and much of it has no basis at all. Particularly @abc consistently proclaiming that it must, in all circumstances, be a failing of the instructor if a beginner fails to make progress. I have given examples of the sort of rare occasions where this would not be the case, but clearly experienced instructors have no idea what what they are talking about in this regard. The further suggestion that it would never happen in a NA ski school is simply nonsense, it did indeed happen to one of my friends kids in NA when they simply kept sitting down and refusing to move. Ski school offered child-care with snow playing as an alternative but were clear that the kid could not continue with the ski lessons. That kid is now an excellent skier, but was clearly just not ready for it that week.
It may well be that the instructor was not the best. It may also well be that the beginner was simply unable to learn to ski. To my mind, though, if an instructor states that even after a 121 lesson the beginner would be unlikely to improve sufficiently that is a signal that maybe skiing is just not for them.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| ecureuil wrote: |
I wonder if the other people in the OP friend's class were not absolute beginners? I've known a few people go back to a beginners class for a 2nd year. And in a peak week they probably just group everyone signed up for group lessons into classes based on ability.
If that were the case then I think ESF would be in the wrong. Their obligation is surely to provide at least one lesson at complete beginner level, even if that means only one person in the lesson and squeezing everyone else into higher lessons? |
Ending up in the right group can be the difference between a fantastic holiday and a dispiriting, demoralising experience. Even a group of absolute beginners will have stronger and weaker members, but an absolute beginner in a group with people who have had a lesson or two in a snowdome, or worse second weekers, is likely to have a miserable time. I don't think it is an uncommon situation either.
It doesn't mean that the person is unteachable either - I have been in a similar situation on a sailing course. I signed up for an RYA competent crew with zero experience, I was told it was for absolute beginners. Everyone else in my category on the course were NOT absolute beginners and most had spent time in friends boats or similar. As a result they were more able to progress the information the instructor was giving them and it then followed that the instructor then gave them more of his time as they were more rewarding to teach. The gap between me and the others grew & after a couple of days I was told 'it wasn't for me' and to enjoy the scenery.
As it turned out I didn't have some kind of inherent defect and have since enjoyed a long and rewarding career in this and related industries.
The situation in the OP may not be the fault of the instructor but it is very rare indeed that someone is unteachable. A sad situation then. I hope the person in question received a full refund and has not been put off from this fantastic pastime.
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abc is being contrarian on purpose it seems.
I don't know why it's so hard to grasp. Yes the OP's friend paid for a lesson, but so did 9 others, and rather than pissing off the 9, instructor made a call to exclude the 1 who stopped everyone else from making progress.
I seriously doubt that the instructor said what he said, particularly about him being unable to rejoin the group even after 1o1 lesson, out of laziness or spite. It's far more likely that it was due to students ability or attitude, or both.
Could the instructor have been more diplomatic about it. Probably, but the French are not exactly known for being sensitive - and this isn't limited to ski instructors.
Some people just struggle, need 100% attention from the instructor and a lot of time to make any progress. Group lesson is a product not designed for such people
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Tue 5-03-24 11:26; edited 3 times in total
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You know it makes sense.
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Oh - in response to the question posed by the OP
What would you try and do to help your friend in this scenario?
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What would you try and do to help your friend in this scenario?
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I would advise my friend not to worry about it, have a day off and then pay for 2 days of 2 hours private lessons with a different school or independent instructor. I'd spend time with him myself on the nursery slope (he is a friend after all) and look for ways for him to enjoy the holiday without any pressure to 'pass' anything.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| abc wrote: |
| Je suis un Skieur wrote: |
if you don't take to it immediately but are still keen you can put in the additional practice and lessons |
Let’s be realistic. A lot of the people aren’t exactly “keen” to learn to ski! They go because their mates are going, or their brother-in-law is going, or their boy friend insist they come along!
The OP’s friend is clearly one of those. He was there because his mates were there. (Maybe even urged him along just to fill the beds in the room!) |
How in the world have you come to that assumption?
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Poster: A snowHead
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One of the golden rules of ski instruction when I first started doing it was that we must always make sure people are having fun. Safety first and most important of course, then fun, then learning, in that order. In the situation described it's difficult to know how the 'friend' could have been having fun.
Never been in that particular situation as an instructor myself, mainly because over the years most of the beginner lessons Ive done have been private, rather than group lessons (and even when teaching groups they were usually maximum six). Also very rarely Brits out on package holiday groups, which tends to minimise the likelihood of someone who didn't really want to be there.
So, fewer people, nearly always much more motivated, much less chance of such a mismatch. But yes, you do sometimes come across someone that finds it as difficult as described. So what I do is find something they can do, however small that may be, and keep doing it. In a group that might be impossible, and I would probably get them to switch to one-to-one lessons if they were that bad. Sad to hear that this wasn't an option available here, and yes, I do feel like the Ski School, not necessarily the instructor themself, has failed the student.
They should be trawling through all the retired or 'unavailable' instructors to try their utmost to find someone to take this guy on, even if if meant them making a financial loss on the deal. Shame on them, I say.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Maybe the OP is now out skiing happily with a new instructor.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Chaletbeauroc,
Loved reading your view.
''Trying their utmost"
I agree, but it remains one of the busiest weeks of the season. All slots in my skischool except for maybe 1 or 2 openings on friday afternoon are taken so finding an extra instructor, qualified to teach in the French system, because there is a known shortage in the French ski instructor market in school holidays, cannot always be realised unfortunately.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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We simply don't know enough to make any judgement on this situation. But it's very interesting to hear the views of experienced instructors, and also relevant anecdotes from other sports. @obmij, I did my first sailing course (RYA dinghies) having NEVER been in a dinghy. Yes, quite a lot of the others on the course had spent a fair bit of time in boats, sometimes against their will, and hadn't paid much attention. But I was keen, and read a book, and knew the theory. So when it was my turn to helm, and the boat heeled over in a gust, I knew to ease the mainsheet. If I was going on a beginners paragliding course, I would read about how wings work (actually, I did read that book, and decided that the sport wasn't for me - too scary - but I enjoyed a "bapteme" flight with an instructor!).
I've been on RYA cruising courses since, including Competent Crew. I had NO big boat experience so all the stuff on loading winches was vital for me. But again, I had read a book. To be honest, if you had made no effort at all to learn something of the theory of sailing, and basic competent crew skills, before the course, then I'm not surprised you just couldn't cope with it. Had you got hold of the relevant log book, looked through the skills you would be expected to demonstrate, and then done a bit of homework (e.g. to properly understand points of the compass, the basics of how you trim a headsail etc). Only a super-fast learner will grasp it all without putting in a bit of prior effort. Learners have responsibilities too. One responsibility of an older beginner skier is to do a few exercises to strengthen their legs and make sure they can cope with the cardio-vascular demands. Someone who can't be arsed is just not likely to have much fun. Kids can mostly cope fine, of course!
OF COURSE the OP should take his unfortunate mate for an hour or so mucking around on a flat area, to try to help him decide once and for all whether skiing was for him. Then, if he was still keen, try hard to find a private instructor for him, even if he had to take a taxi to a different part of the domaine.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Origen,
Its a very good point, many don't do any homework before turning up to something like this and others do masses, that combined with difference in fitness can make a massive difference. Also just their apptitude to learning. I will never forget skiing up at matson one weekend with my daughter there was a guy on a learn to ski day with a kwikasfuki hoody on. The only thing his was doing quickly was hitting to mat repeatedly as he was basically refusing to snow plough and insisted on keeping skis straight with no concept of weight distribution. I had only ever witnessed snowboarders go through that much pain up there previously
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| JulieAimeLeSki wrote: |
@Chaletbeauroc,
Loved reading your view.
''Trying their utmost"
I agree, but it remains one of the busiest weeks of the season. All slots in my skischool except for maybe 1 or 2 openings on friday afternoon are taken so finding an extra instructor, qualified to teach in the French system, because there is a known shortage in the French ski instructor market in school holidays, cannot always be realised unfortunately. |
In certain weeks of the season we have many 'spare' instructors available when people who are here for the season don't always have work. For us high season has finished and most of these instructors have gone home. In high season we already have all of the available local instructors, some of whom have taken holidays fron their normal work to help out. Many of the older instructors have reached pension age and have to be careful how much they work as if they work too many hours in a month they get part of their pension withdrawn so are actually working for nothing. I don't know if this is the same in France but just highlights some of the potential issues with just getting someone out of retirement to help out. It is also becoming increasingly difficult to find locals who want to be instructors, we are currently very active in getting young local teenagers to come and work in the kindergarten in their school holiday times with the hope that some of them will actually want to do more.
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| JulieAimeLeSki wrote: |
@Chaletbeauroc,
Loved reading your view.
''Trying their utmost"
I agree, but it remains one of the busiest weeks of the season. All slots in my skischool except for maybe 1 or 2 openings on friday afternoon are taken so finding an extra instructor, qualified to teach in the French system, because there is a known shortage in the French ski instructor market in school holidays, cannot always be realised unfortunately. |
Yes, it's a problem stemming from the Carte Pro requirement amongst other things. It effectively rules out the use of part-timers such as myself - the additional cost (not to mention time and effort) of going through from BASI L3 to L4 and Eurotest is not insignificant (I never planned to, being over 50 when I started) and means that only those planning to make a real career out of it will pursue it. Here in CH it's different, as you know, and given Swiss residency it's never been a problem for me.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Origen, I read a book before I started skiing: the infamous Sunday Times Insight* Team's "We Learned to Ski", or as I rapidly learned in Austria: "We Learned to P¡ss off Ski Instructors".
Every beginner is going to benefit significantly from spending time understanding the basics before they go: some combination of snowdome/dry slope/YouTube videos/friends showing you how stuff works.
Anyone selling "learn to Ski in a week as a complete beginner" is a shark.
* aka the Hindsight Team
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| tsgsh wrote: |
Every beginner is going to benefit significantly from spending time understanding the basics before they go: some combination of snowdome/dry slope/YouTube videos/friends showing you how stuff works. |
I agree of course that artificial slope lessons in advance will tremendously benefit anyone and make them much more able to make the most of the real skiing when they get there. I'm not convinced that watching videos without the ability to try or practice anything is a good idea though. Much possibility for misunderstanding, and indeed much misinformation about "how to ski" if their video choices are not very carefully curated.
| tsgsh wrote: |
Anyone selling "learn to Ski in a week as a complete beginner" is a shark.
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Why? You can "learn to ski" in a day, insomuch as you'll (probably) be able to snowplough around a bit on a gentle slope. Nobody would suggest that a week is going to get you to the Olympics, but it's possible to achieve quite a fair level in that time. For many people it could be enough to ski around the mountain with friends, as long as said friends know what they're doing and where they're going (and where they should not go).
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FAQ
