 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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With it being school holidays this week the Express Lanes aren't hugely quicker than the regular lines
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Price elasticities of demand...... an opportunity to make some extra money in the busy weeks. I've never understood why there isn't more dynamic pricing. It's a very recent but entirely logical development.
A pity, in a way. But unrealistic to believe that access to ski lifts, like so many other commodities, will not be rationed by price. Access to skiing has always been rationed by price.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Origen, but when you pay for the express ticket at Disney, you are generally doing as a family, and in a completely different line, and all go on the ride together.
also, you pick and choose what rides you want to pay the extra for, which would be generally the most popular ones.
must admit when i took my daughters to Disney Paris a couple of years ago, i told them i was prepared to pay for express for two of the rides on each of the two days we were there (as i was never going to go again in my life!!).
so managed to bypass long easter queues on a couple of rides on the first day, second day the first ride we went on had a technical fault whilst about to get on, so was reimbursed the cost of the extra fee and given 2no each express tickets for that day free of charge, so bonus!!!
with the express line, if you went in a family or group, potentially you could be on several different chairs before you reach the top.
i could understand an additional cost if the lifts were properly marshalled, i.e. no spare seats on chairs at busy periods, but it seems like a money making wheeze for being shambolic and lazy!!!
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sun 3-03-24 13:53; edited 1 time in total
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Written by the Steamboat marketing kiddies I presume?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| The 'Express Lanes' were introduced two or three years ago (IIRC), initially just to a few lifts and now expanded to 13 (Grizzly / Peisey / Derby / Vallandry / Villards / Comborcière / Mont Blanc / Carreley / Vagère / Arpette / Bois de l’Ours / Marmottes / Varet). Some of those lifts used to have single rider lines, but no more. |
The only single lane I can recall since becoming a regular 20-ish years ago was when the new Arpette lift went in, and that was only for a year or two. I've seen them occasionally use the gate to fill up cabins with singles on Varet, but that was just taking people out of the general melee rather than having a separate lane. Happy to be corrected, though!
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@195062, I think there was one on the Derby and possibly on the Vagere for one season, in addition to the Arpette.
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| Origen wrote: |
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on the other hand this should not be a license to charge extra for this service
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I can see no logical reason why not. Simple commercial calculation and it sounds as though it works OK in Serre Chevalier. Disneyland charge extra to jump the queues, don't they? People pay thousands of pounds to get their hip replacement quicker than others. |
I have no problem with this, but it obviously takes a little bit more effort to setup (different lift pass and presumably a little bit more infrastructure prep) than a simple singles line. The 'free' singles line is just a no-brainer IMO.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
The Express Lanes are separate from Ski School lanes, which still operate on some of the lifts. |
Are you saying that there is not a ski school lane on every lift now then. Sorry having not skied over there for a couple of years a bit out the loop!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Steve Angus wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
The Express Lanes are separate from Ski School lanes, which still operate on some of the lifts. |
Are you saying that there is not a ski school lane on every lift now then. Sorry having not skied over there for a couple of years a bit out the loop! |
Caveat: I'm not terribly observant, but I don't think there are ski school ones on every lift. Most of them, and probably all the ones that you'd want to use, but not every lift.
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The Europeans aren't immune to making money, but there is a greater sense of "if we can collectively get the punters here by having good infrastructure at OK prices we can all make some money out of it". Now, some of that is a necessary outcome of having fact that often there are several distinctly separate settlements linked into the lift network, but it does result in that greater sense of "community" for want of a better word. Contrast to the US which has a more transactional "roll up, roll up come visit our attraction" ethos. I guess, also, some of this reflects how Europeans have a very strongly established weekend to weekend vacation cycle whereas I get the impression it is less prevalent thanks to US holiday allowances
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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an interesting suggestion, @Technician. In the French area with which I'm most familiar there are several different communes which link into 200kms of linked pistes and the rivalry between them is sometimes strong and unpleasant. They are all keen to ensure that nobody does better than them! Still, I think I prefer that to the North American ethic which enables "resorts" to charge astronomical sums for ski lessons whilst paying instructors very poorly.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Agree that better queue management would be great. Too often in Europe there is just a general melee approaching the lift, with people arriving later than you skiing around the outside of the crowd and cutting in. Which is what gets people annoyed.
I am more ambivalent on filling chairs. It is daft that sometimes an 8-seater has only one person on it (and can be dangerous as well if that person can't then reach or control a heavy safety bar). But with all (6 or 8 ) seats filled there seems far more likelihood to be a fall as people get off, particularly if there is a mix of skiers and boarders, or beginners. If someone doesn't look relaxed in the queue I will sometimes deliberately not fill up a seat next to them on a crowded chair.
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| ecureuil wrote: |
Agree that better queue management would be great. Too often in Europe there is just a general melee approaching the lift, with people arriving later than you skiing around the outside of the crowd and cutting in. Which is what gets people annoyed.
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It is well known that the outside of the mess moves faster than the inside. So if you are not aware of that general phenomenon, your loss. They’re not “cutting in”. They just know something about fluid dynamic a bit more than you.
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If someone doesn't look relaxed in the queue I will sometimes deliberately not fill up a seat next to them on a crowded chair.
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Well, well well! Here we found out one more reason why so often the chairs aren’t filled up! Delay of the rest of the queue be damned!
Better not ski in North America then. Because if there’s even a single spot left on a big chair, someone from the single’s line will fill it to the full! 
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You know it makes sense.
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It's a matter of self-preservation. In a week I will nearly always see one or more pile-ups of people coming off a full 6 or 8 man chair. Either a few chairs ahead, or behind, or occasionally on mine! And slow speed falls tend to lead to more soft tissue injuries when skis don't release.
With smaller chairs you can often get away with someone being a prat, like skiing across the group rather than ahead or to the outside, or just not keeping their skis parallel. If someone does that on a big chair and you are in the middle you have no chance of avoiding it.
So 2/3/4 chairs: always fill up. 6 or 8: it depends...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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So you can pay to skip lift queues? That's absolute dog droppings. I would avoid any resort that offered this 'opportunity' like ebola.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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If a 4 man lift is full, 4 go up. If an 8 man lift only has 5 people, 5 go up. 5 is still greater than 4.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm not sure it's so much the drive for environmentalism as much as two lists require two sets of staff, two motors running, two sets of cables to maintain etc etc etc.
Agree completely about efficiency though. As a boarder, being on a full 8 man chair scares the life out of me at the top. You can guarantee someone is cutting across you.
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The aim should be maximise uplift per hour. If only having 7 on an 8-chair means it runs at full speed the whole time, that could be more efficient (and cheaper) then squeezing 8 on but frequently slowing down or stopping.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Last season I saw a sign near the top of a 6 person chair saying with words and a graphic "communicate about which way you're going when you get off". Should be standard equipment in my view. I often just say "I'm going left" and usually get a thanks back.
The notion that "I wanna ride with my group, and only my group", that we've all done, needs to be set aside when there's lines.
Another tidbit: it isn't just the lifties managing the lines over here. For example, if I'm solo and get grouped with three others but see a space ahead that I can fill, I'll often scoot ahead and do it. Someone else will invariably take my place.
The common thread here is that plenty of this is on us to fix, and it isn't that hard.
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| ecureuil wrote: |
| The aim should be maximise uplift per hour. If only having 7 on an 8-chair means it runs at full speed the whole time, that could be more efficient (and cheaper) then squeezing 8 on but frequently slowing down or stopping. |
If all the 8 person chairs have 7 people on it, I don’t think there would be too much of an outcry about (HALF) EMPTY chairs!
It’s when there’re less than 6 people on the 8 person chair, or less than 4 on a 6 person chair that really, seriously grates the nerve of the people wait at the back of the line! And once they’re up front, there’s no hesitation for them to monopolize the chair, given all the chairs in front of them were half empty anyway! It’s a vicious cycle.
A single’s line will break that cycle!!! The singles will fill the chair, even if not necessarily to the full capacity, but likely very close to full!
That sight of nearly full chairs going up will also deter groups at the front to even think about having their only group on the half empty chair. More over, the singles will fill the empty space anyway. Soon, everyone will get used to chairs being close to full. And the lines will go a whole lot faster!
For those who had never skied in North America, single’s lines are practically at every lift except the ones that are never crowded. On the big 6 person chairs, there’re typically TWO single’s line, one on each side!  One thing, the singles are typically relatively proficient skiers, for they could be asked to fill the chair at the last possible moment. So they need to be relatively nimble on their feet. It’s almost guarantee they won’t be the ones who fall on dismount and causing a pile up! Some boarders also loves it. They get to choose which side of the chair to sit on (by choosing to line up on the line of their prefer side).
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@Steve Angus, others may notice different percentages of people using the express lanes in les arcs, but I would say that the split is about 20:80. Sometimes it saves a lot of time but in less busy times, little. The passes also carry some other benefits such as adding la plagne to the lift area, discounts on some attractions such as the luge track and the zip wire, but I buy it for the que jumping at Christmas and new year. I probably won’t use them at Easter when I’m skiing with friends.
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I suspect the only place in the world which is perfect when it comes to lift optimisation is somewhere that is locals only where everyone just jumps on the first available chair.
NA singles lines aren't perfect. Tourists will sometimes go in them then block the front while they wait for a pair of seats or be unassertive about inserting themselves in a gap. The Euro thing of everyone letting seats go because they want their group to have a private chair is maddening though ( those people would be first against the wall when my revolution comes) and I find 8 packs almost pointless without a lifty to direct traffic assertively. But NAmerican mazes and alternating merges do seem more orderly and respected in a way I find hard to imagine in Italy or with Germans.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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It's hard to argue against the case for singles lines. The people who can't ride a chair without their Loved Ones beside them are just a massive pain in the butt.
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| Scooter in Seattle wrote: |
| Last season I saw a sign near the top of a 6 person chair saying with words and a graphic "communicate about which way you're going when you get off". Should be standard equipment in my view. I often just say "I'm going left" and usually get a thanks back. |
Didn't help on the PSB when we all made it clear the plan was "Right off the top of the chair"...and the guy (in our group) on the far right came off the chair and started drifinting left 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Origen wrote: |
| The people who can't ride a chair without their Loved Ones beside them are just a massive pain in the butt. |
Are you sure that they aren't just sitting on their poles funny?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| abc wrote: |
| It’s when there’re less than 6 people on the 8 person chair, or less than 4 on a 6 person chair that really, seriously grates the nerve of the people wait at the back of the line! |
Yes. I've seen 8 mans with 3 or less at busy times and that is the real p!sser. The occasionally spare slot I could live with.
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I've come across singles lines in Europe many times, Even last week in Amade they do exist this side of the pond, particularly on the gondolas. I don't see what the fuss is about most of the lift queues I encounter in Europe are pretty fluid and everyone gets there at a steady rate. Maybe people nowadays just have a hyper mindset and feel they've gotta be ahead of the game all the time, try a more relaxed approach it's supposed to be a holiday. And in Europe, you are expected to respect the safety and comfort of those whom you share a chair lift with by pulling down the restraint/footrest bar. And I like the old draglifts they often serve areas which are a little quieter.
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You know it makes sense.
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others may notice different percentages of people using the express lanes in les arcs, but I would say that the split is about 20:80.
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Thinking about that again. What I see is for every person going through the express lane I see 4 standing in the non express queue. Since once you are through the gate the server (the lift) takes equal number of people from each queue there may be a higher percentage of people with essential passes (the pass that allows queue jumping) than 20. Because there are always less than half of them in the express queue that queue will always go faster and be significantly smaller. It is a non linear relationship. Cue, starting looking at the books on queing theory or playing with SimEvents
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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There are certainly singles lines around Courchevel and have been for many, many years.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Origen wrote: |
| The people who can't ride a chair without their Loved Ones beside them are just a massive pain in the butt. |
On the flip side, the locals are thinking the stressed and entitled English tourists are the pains in the butt. Most are pretty good about sorting it out while in the queue, but try and tell an Austrian family out skiing together that they can't let a chair go by with a space left on it in order to spend time together* in their own mountains because some Brit on holiday is in a rush to go skid more low speed backseat turns and they'll look at you like you're a Volltrottel 
*Different rules on a powder day obv
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| Origen wrote: |
@wsirhc, an "ungroomed trail" (a piste, in Europarlance) is not the same thing as an "itinerary". In European resorts any piste marked as such on the map, and not closed, can be assumed to be avalanche-controlled and if you injure yourself, the patrol will be along to rescue you. A piste will quite likely be groomed from time to time, whereas an itinerary is never likely to be groomed...
...I would just assume that anything called a free-ride route, or an itinerary, or anything of the sort was not avalanche controlled, and it was a case of making yourself aware of conditions. |
In Austria a piste is always groomed (that's why it's called a piste, having been pisted or made by a piste-basher). And for me ungroomed trail would translate to itinerary or ski route, which will be avalanche controlled (and opened or closed daily based on control work) but may or may not be patrolled.
Land Tirol has a document outlining all the definitions and requirements of the various categories of slope here (starts on page 6, in German): https://www.tirol.gv.at/fileadmin/themen/sport/berg-und-ski/downloads_berg_und_ski/guetesiegel/2022_Pistengu__tesiegel_Bericht.pdf
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2.1 Skiabfahrten
Skiabfahrten sind alle Arten von Abfahrsmöglichkeiten im organisierten und freien Skiraum. (siehe Seite 17)
2.2 Skipisten
Skipisten sind allgemein zugängliche, zur Abfahrt mit Ski*) vorgesehene und geeignete Strecken, die markiert, kontrolliert und vor atypischen Gefahren, insbesondere Lawinengefahren, gesichert sind und präpariert wer- den (ÖNORM S 4611).
2.3 Skirouten
Skirouten sind allgemein zugängliche, zur Abfahrt mit Ski vorgesehene und geeignete Strecken, die nur vor Lawinengefahr gesichert, jedoch weder präpariert noch kontrolliert* werden müssen.
2.4 Freies Skigelände
Alles, was nicht als Skipiste und Skiroute gewidmet wird, ist freies Skigelände. Es ist weder markiert noch präpariert, nicht kontrolliert und auch nicht gesichert. Von einer „wilden Piste“ spricht man dann, wenn die frei entstandene Abfahrt einer Piste gleicht, weil sie stark befahren wird. Von einer „Variante“ eher dann, wenn es sich um einzelne Spuren handelt. Dies gilt vor allem im Tiefschnee, wenn über ganze Hänge hinweg jeder seine eigene Spur zieht. Hier spricht man vom „Variantenfahren“ schlechthin.*) Unter „Ski“ im Sinne dieser Richtlinien werden alle Gleitgeräte auf Schnee, wie Ski, Big Foot, Firngleiter, Monoski, Snowboard, Skibob u.ä. verstanden.
ChatGPT Translation:
2.1 Ski Runs
Ski runs refer to all types of downhill opportunities in organized and free ski areas. (see page 17)
2.2 Ski Slopes
Ski slopes are generally accessible routes designated and suitable for skiing, marked, controlled, and secured against atypical hazards, especially avalanche risks, and groomed (ÖNORM S 4611).
2.3 Ski Routes
Ski routes are generally accessible routes designated and suitable for skiing, secured only against avalanche danger but not groomed or controlled*.
2.4 Freeride Terrain**
Anything not dedicated as a ski slope or ski route is considered freeride terrain**. |
*Where the German kontrolliert has been translated into controlled, they mean patrolled - 'avalanche controlled' is the 'vor Lawinengefahr gesichert' bit.
**Also misleadingly translated, Freies Gelände means rather 'free terrain' offpiste than 'freeride terrain' in that it doesn't reference skiability of the terrain
I assume France must have something similar? |
If only it was that simple
Given the Arlberg is just about the most prominent area in Tirol & Austria you would have thought they might follow those rules but no. Many of the most well known ski routes are groomed Madloch, Schindlerkar etc. Steinmännle down from Rüfikopf is to all extents & purposes a groomed red piste but is designated a ski route - why? Yesterday Schindlerkar had been groomed even up to the entrance on Schindlergrat. In the main part there was a line of poles to one side with a wide groomed area in the main part, again why? Of course there is the groomed path section with a safety fence. Both Mattunjoch & Mattun run through a large bowl, there are a huge variety of potential routes through this bowl, does this imply that the only "approved" routes are by the line of poles which hardly anyone follows (where is line between ski route & the "freeride" areas to the side? same question can be asked for Schindler). The "black" route under the Valfagehrbahn has a very long extent of piste bashed track, it ends in a fairly steep mogul field, surely if you can ski that then you dont need a beginners bashed track (which might encourage those who shouldn't to try it!).
Theory and practice on this have never matched up!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| munich_irish wrote: |
| clarky999 wrote: |
| Origen wrote: |
@wsirhc, an "ungroomed trail" (a piste, in Europarlance) is not the same thing as an "itinerary". In European resorts any piste marked as such on the map, and not closed, can be assumed to be avalanche-controlled and if you injure yourself, the patrol will be along to rescue you. A piste will quite likely be groomed from time to time, whereas an itinerary is never likely to be groomed...
...I would just assume that anything called a free-ride route, or an itinerary, or anything of the sort was not avalanche controlled, and it was a case of making yourself aware of conditions. |
In Austria a piste is always groomed (that's why it's called a piste, having been pisted or made by a piste-basher). And for me ungroomed trail would translate to itinerary or ski route, which will be avalanche controlled (and opened or closed daily based on control work) but may or may not be patrolled.
Land Tirol has a document outlining all the definitions and requirements of the various categories of slope here (starts on page 6, in German): https://www.tirol.gv.at/fileadmin/themen/sport/berg-und-ski/downloads_berg_und_ski/guetesiegel/2022_Pistengu__tesiegel_Bericht.pdf
| Quote: |
2.1 Skiabfahrten
Skiabfahrten sind alle Arten von Abfahrsmöglichkeiten im organisierten und freien Skiraum. (siehe Seite 17)
2.2 Skipisten
Skipisten sind allgemein zugängliche, zur Abfahrt mit Ski*) vorgesehene und geeignete Strecken, die markiert, kontrolliert und vor atypischen Gefahren, insbesondere Lawinengefahren, gesichert sind und präpariert wer- den (ÖNORM S 4611).
2.3 Skirouten
Skirouten sind allgemein zugängliche, zur Abfahrt mit Ski vorgesehene und geeignete Strecken, die nur vor Lawinengefahr gesichert, jedoch weder präpariert noch kontrolliert* werden müssen.
2.4 Freies Skigelände
Alles, was nicht als Skipiste und Skiroute gewidmet wird, ist freies Skigelände. Es ist weder markiert noch präpariert, nicht kontrolliert und auch nicht gesichert. Von einer „wilden Piste“ spricht man dann, wenn die frei entstandene Abfahrt einer Piste gleicht, weil sie stark befahren wird. Von einer „Variante“ eher dann, wenn es sich um einzelne Spuren handelt. Dies gilt vor allem im Tiefschnee, wenn über ganze Hänge hinweg jeder seine eigene Spur zieht. Hier spricht man vom „Variantenfahren“ schlechthin.*) Unter „Ski“ im Sinne dieser Richtlinien werden alle Gleitgeräte auf Schnee, wie Ski, Big Foot, Firngleiter, Monoski, Snowboard, Skibob u.ä. verstanden.
ChatGPT Translation:
2.1 Ski Runs
Ski runs refer to all types of downhill opportunities in organized and free ski areas. (see page 17)
2.2 Ski Slopes
Ski slopes are generally accessible routes designated and suitable for skiing, marked, controlled, and secured against atypical hazards, especially avalanche risks, and groomed (ÖNORM S 4611).
2.3 Ski Routes
Ski routes are generally accessible routes designated and suitable for skiing, secured only against avalanche danger but not groomed or controlled*.
2.4 Freeride Terrain**
Anything not dedicated as a ski slope or ski route is considered freeride terrain**. |
*Where the German kontrolliert has been translated into controlled, they mean patrolled - 'avalanche controlled' is the 'vor Lawinengefahr gesichert' bit.
**Also misleadingly translated, Freies Gelände means rather 'free terrain' offpiste than 'freeride terrain' in that it doesn't reference skiability of the terrain
I assume France must have something similar? |
If only it was that simple
Given the Arlberg is just about the most prominent area in Tirol & Austria you would have thought they might follow those rules but no. Many of the most well known ski routes are groomed Madloch, Schindlerkar etc. Steinmännle down from Rüfikopf is to all extents & purposes a groomed red piste but is designated a ski route - why? Yesterday Schindlerkar had been groomed even up to the entrance on Schindlergrat. In the main part there was a line of poles to one side with a wide groomed area in the main part, again why? Of course there is the groomed path section with a safety fence. Both Mattunjoch & Mattun run through a large bowl, there are a huge variety of potential routes through this bowl, does this imply that the only "approved" routes are by the line of poles which hardly anyone follows (where is line between ski route & the "freeride" areas to the side? same question can be asked for Schindler). The "black" route under the Valfagehrbahn has a very long extent of piste bashed track, it ends in a fairly steep mogul field, surely if you can ski that then you dont need a beginners bashed track (which might encourage those who shouldn't to try it!).
Theory and practice on this have never matched up! |
I think the point is that a ski route may or may not be groomed, but a piste HAS to be groomed and must be closed if not (unless in exceptional snowfall).
I also think it's super weird of the Arlberg to groom some ski routes, and that it defeats the purpose of the designation - I guess the reason they do it and designate those as ski routes rather than pistes is just to give themselves more legal flexibility on when/how they have to open/close/maintain/patrol them.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
In Austria a piste is always groomed (that's why it's called a piste, having been pisted or made by a piste-basher)
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I thought a "piste" simply translated as a "track" with no implication that is was bashed or even marked.
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I think the point is that a ski route may or may not be groomed, but a piste HAS to be groomed and must be closed if not
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Where does this "a piste HAS to be groomed" come from? Does this rule only apply in Tirol and is "groomed" a synonym for "prepared" ? Most of the black pistes in Les Arcs are not groomed but "natur" but I would say they were suitably prepared.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
I think the point is that a ski route may or may not be groomed, but a piste HAS to be groomed and must be closed if not (unless in exceptional snowfall).
I also think it's super weird of the Arlberg to groom some ski routes, and that it defeats the purpose of the designation - I guess the reason they do it and designate those as ski routes rather than pistes is just to give themselves more legal flexibility on when/how they have to open/close/maintain/patrol them. |
It is the potential confusion it causes that is the problem. For those who know the area it adds to the attraction, of being "in the know" of what to do and what not to. But surely the point of the various designations is to help those who dont know the area and want to be informed about what they might face. The ski routes have a red and black designation (that's not in the rules!) but even that is not clear, is Langerzug really as difficult as Tannegg? The upper part of the black ski route from the mid station of Trittkopf is pisted, the first bit is steep and narrow but then flattens out to later link up with a red piste (so avoiding the dull plod up to the piste) the second part is most definitely black ski route territory. The designations on openski map are better - Madloch & Schindlerkar shown as red pistes and Langerzug as black but that hardly helps those newly arrived peering at the piste map at breakfast before heading out!
Given the increasing number of US visitors (I believe the Arlberg is now on one of the American passes?) it might be sensible to sort this mess out before there are too many accidents. Negative publicity is never good for business!
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Austria is the only place I've skied where the piste bashers come out in the middle of the day if it's snowing heavily. Now I'm thinking that that may be for legal/contractual reasons?
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| johnE wrote: |
Where does this "a piste HAS to be groomed" come from? Does this rule only apply in Tirol and is "groomed" a synonym for "prepared" ? Most of the black pistes in Les Arcs are not groomed but "natur" but I would say they were suitably prepared. |
Perhaps as a result of pretty much only skiing in Austria for the past 25 years I would say an unpisted / ungroomed run is a ski route not a piste, in theory a groomed run = piste but as you can see from the above that is not necessarily the case. Not sure what "prepared" means in this instance if not groomed?
Going back to the original article the point being whilst it seems pretty clear in north America what is "inbounds" and what is not. In Europe the definition of what is a piste varies not only between countries but between resorts!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Je suis un Skieur wrote: |
| Austria is the only place I've skied where the piste bashers come out in the middle of the day if it's snowing heavily. Now I'm thinking that that may be for legal/contractual reasons? |
They come out in the middle of the day even if it's not sometimes.
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| johnE wrote: |
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In Austria a piste is always groomed (that's why it's called a piste, having been pisted or made by a piste-basher)
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I thought a "piste" simply translated as a "track" with no implication that is was bashed or even marked.
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I think the point is that a ski route may or may not be groomed, but a piste HAS to be groomed and must be closed if not
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Where does this "a piste HAS to be groomed" come from? Does this rule only apply in Tirol and is "groomed" a synonym for "prepared" ? Most of the black pistes in Les Arcs are not groomed but "natur" but I would say they were suitably prepared. |
It comes from the linked document written by Land Tirol, the state government, setting out the rules ski resorts have to abide by. That's apparently administered at Landes rather than Country level, but AFAIK the rules and signage are the same across Austria. And yes, präpariert here means 'prepared by pistenbully' or bashed/groomed/etc.
As to how Piste is translated, it's obviously a French word and obviously may be used differently in France, which is why I said "in Austria". Here it is only used to refer to groomed ski slopes, and never outside of downhill skiing. Track or trail would normally be weg (ie Wanderweg = hiking trail), sometimes Steig or Bahn, or in the case of cross-country skiing tracks Loipe (ie Langlaufloipe).
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