 Poster: A snowHead
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I wish Vail Resorts introduces "beer pass" ...
With beer at $18 on mountain (that's how much I paid 2 years ago in Heavenly, CA) "beer pass" for $300 would break even after 15 beers !
And if you ski 75 days/season and consume 75 beers/season ... no, that's not how it works, right ?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| LaForet wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
| LaForet wrote: |
| my guess is that complex ticketing works where there are large catchment areas for a ski area, like Denver for the Colorado resorts. |
Vail IS in Colorado! In fact, Epic Pass for the longest time was only mostly purchased by the Denver area skiers (“Front Rangers”). Even the subsequent purchase by Vail of resorts outside of Colorado, it was indeed in resorts with “large catchment areas”! The Midwest, Australia, the Northeast & Mid-Atlantic. So your “guess” is exactly the operating principle of Vail. As for the pricing structure not appealing to Brits, it’s like wondering why steak house don’t have a large vegetarian dishes! It’s simply not their focus. |
Err … so you’re agreeing with me? I know Vail is in Colorado, I’ve skied there. I flew into Denver from St. Louis. Which I also know is in Missouri. |
I agree with everything everyone wrote. Most of them are spot on.
The point being, Brit’s aren’t the center of the universe any more. So instead of catering to the like and dislike of the massive herds of British skiers, Vail had a price structure that fleece them rather than inviting them! (IKON follow too). Even the “complexity” of the pricing schemes stinks, none of them fit the Brit’s travel habit. Don’t they know better? 
Further more, American skiers, who’re supposed to have fewer vacation than their British counterpart, somehow manage to ski more days than their British counterpart’s “weeks”.
The Brit’s have a lot to moan about, rightly so. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| abc wrote: |
The point being, Brit’s aren’t the center of the universe any more. So instead of catering to the like and dislike of the massive herds of British skiers, Vail had a price structure that fleece them rather than inviting them! |
I am shocked, frankly. Shocked and appalled.
Can’t we organise a referendum, or a military task force, to right this wrong? Perhaps send Rish! to invoke the Special Relationship clause?
We ruled half the world once you know.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| abc wrote: |
Further more, American skiers, who’re supposed to have fewer vacation than their British counterpart, somehow manage to ski more days than their British counterpart’s “weeks”.
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This rather misses a key geographical point, vastly more Americans live in day trip or weekend drivable proximity to ski areas than in the UK.
Even in poor seasons where I don’t go on a ski holiday I’ll ski more days than a 2 week holiday skier. If you want to be argumentative you could say that there’s a difference between skiers (for whom snow sports is part and parcel of their regular routine for winter and most of spring) and people for whom skiing is something done on a weeks holiday!
However more people live in the Bay Area with a similar drive time to South Lake Tahoe, as from Glasgow to CairnGorm than live in the whole of Scotland.
So when you replicate that across the US it should be patently obvious that a bigger proportion of US skiers ski more days a season than British skiers.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
So when you replicate that across the US it should be patently obvious that a bigger proportion of US skiers ski more days a season than British skiers.
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Yes but Brits assume everywhere is like UK where you can't drive to ski resorts and just do 1 or 2 full week trips per season. Probably why many fail to realise just how much value and epic pass is for a lot of people. They don't ask why some of our European friends have to pay significantly more than an epic pass just for a single resort season pass in Europe.
@abc, if the deal is tourists that want to do a couple of days per year get screwed so that skiers that willing to lock in a pass early and maximise ski days get a good deal I'm all for it. I find it strange other skiers wouldn't support that too.
There are many areas of life where frequent users or members get some kind of better deal. I don't have Amazon prime, there are some years where I would have been better off with it as would have paid for itself with free deliveries. But why should the likes of me get a better deal than those willing to pay upfront for the service/membership.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Scooter in Seattle,
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Any of you that are road trippers should take a real hard look at Mtn Collective ($605) as was mentioned above. Not selling anything here, but if so inclined act soon, while the "third free day at one place" offer is still available. Fly to SLC, hit AltaBird, Snowbasin, Jackson Hole, Grand Targhee & Big Sky, a beautiful and very doable road trip. On that itinerary, 2 days each, your lift costs would be lower than back home. Skip Big Sky and you could do it with just two reasonably-priced lodgings (SLC and Driggs) as well. And that's just one example.
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Done that with slight variation, have been using the MC pass for years, in fact just back from a 3 week trip in CA using the MC for a good portion of it. Brings the costs down and you get to see some of the country too 
This tpic will always crop up - foreward planning will get you cheaper deals though. Already looking a next years MC pass, without knowing yet where we'll head.
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Just returned from 12 days skiing in Lake Tahoe (Heavenly, Kirkwood & Northstar) nearly 3 weeks away in total as combined with visiting family.
Purchased the EPIC tahoe local pass (which is a season pass) - cant remember the exact cost but was approx £470pp - which compared to the cost of my 6 days skiing in the 3V in January, I felt offered good value - especially as the skiing was generally so much better (IMO).
The only way to ski North America affordably is to purchase way ahead when tickets come out (I ordered mine in early summer and paid fully in September) and RESEACH which ticket type is best suited as there are so many options!
As well as booking the best accommodation asap
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Talking about complexity, we were skiing in Switzerland in January, staying at Lauterbrunnen to ski Wengen and Murren. We needed to take a train from GVA to get there. Try working out which combination of train and lift tickets would be best for a 12 day visit with around 8-9 days of skiing, interest in using the trams for hiking on off days, and maybe a day trip or two on the train. Hellish it was, hellish.
As for Epic passes, was just out skiing at Park City last week. $285 for a single day ticket if you bought on the day. Full Epic passes sell for under $1000. Do the math.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Tom_Ski wrote: |
Talking about complexity, we were skiing in Switzerland in January, staying at Lauterbrunnen to ski Wengen and Murren. We needed to take a train from GVA to get there. Try working out which combination of train and lift tickets would be best for a 12 day visit with around 8-9 days of skiing, interest in using the trams for hiking on off days, and maybe a day trip or two on the train. Hellish it was, hellish.
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Hardly. A 3 or 4 day Swiss rail pass plus a combo of lift passes would suffice. Just because the uS doesn't have a functional long distance public transit system doesn't mean that elsewhere is unnecessarily complicated. Within a small region how would one ski Kirkwood, Heavenly and Northstar ( on the same pass)without one's own transport?
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Rent a car? 
Here in ‘Merica we all drive cars and trucks. Just the way it is.
As for rail passes, Swiss Rail isn’t straightforward at all. 1/2 pass. Full pass. Pay as you go. Which one?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Tom_Ski wrote: |
Here in ‘Merica we all drive cars and trucks. Just the way it is.
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Yup. As the gridlock around Tahoe,I80 every weekend the canyons in SLC, I70 in Colorado etc etc shows.
Spending 5 mins on Maninseat61 researching rail tickets is a piece of wee wee compared to all that.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I generally only ski midweek here and can time when I go to avoid rush hour commute time. But yeah, traffic can be pretty diabolical here if you’re stuck with weekends only. I’m a big fan of European public transport. Wish we had more of it here.
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Let’s stop this nonsense!
You don’t want any complexity? Just pay the full rack rate!
You want to take advantage of all the possible discount? Work on it. Dig around, make a spreadsheet if that helps. You got time on your hand and don’t want to waste money, the “complexity” is your friend!
Is your time more valuable than the “saving”, don’t waste your time.
Complexity my @s! If you flunk your grade school arithmetic, just pay full price!
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You know it makes sense.
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Are you for real? Take a chill pill there, free rider dude.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Tom_Ski, just get a Jungfrauregion pass. Why do you want to take days off on a skiing trip?
I don’t recall any trams in the area but that pass gets you on trains, cable cars, chairlifts etc unless it’s changed recently. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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I think trams might be an American term for cable cars
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@TommyJ, true
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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How monopoly and price discrimination transform an industry - The Economist
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The benefits of starting early have always been clear to skiers. Yet at Colorado ski resorts, being quick is now about much more than getting to the top of the mountain first. To be allowed to go, your correspondent, an uninformed European, paid 260 dollars for a single day's pass. Hardly anyone else in the seats with him paid that much. These days, if you want to ski in America, the wise thing to do is to buy your pass before the first snowfall. Sign up before November, and you can ski unlimited all season for less than the cost of a few days. Over the last decade or so, the ski industry has been transformed by clever pricing and industry consolidation. A close look gives an insight into how the US consumer economy as a whole is changing. It shows how monopoly power can accumulate, but also drive growth.
Breckenridge is owned by Vail Resorts, a listed company based near Denver which now operates on three continents. In 2008, the company, which at the time owned just five resorts, launched the 'Epic Pass'. Previously, season ski passes had been a niche product, generally sold to local residents for up to $1,500. The ski industry derived most of its revenue from day passes. Unlike in Europe, where resorts are often owned by local or national governments, skiing in America has never been a stable business. Most mountains were prestige assets owned by wealthy families, and their fortunes waxed and waned with the snow. "It didn't really represent an investment opportunity," says Sara Olson, Vail's vice president of communications.
With the Epic Pass, Vail has changed its offer. Skiers can now enjoy unlimited skiing in a range of resorts for less, but only by signing up before the season starts.The result, according to Stuart Winchester, who runs the Storm Skiing Journal, an industry blog and podcast, is that for the first time in decades, skiing in America has become reliably profitable.But this has come at the expense of the competition."Everyone is swimming.Vail is buying everything," he says.
Vail now owns 41 resorts, including more than two dozen small hills on the East Coast and in the Midwest, which they consider "feeder" resorts that nurture new skiers who might eventually come west. In 2018, a competing pass, the Ikon, was launched by the Alterra Mountain Company, owned by the billionaire Crown family of Chicago, which shares revenue with independent resorts. Today, most of America's largest ski resorts are on one pass or another.
In basic economic theory, excessive market power reduces the efficiency of an industry. Firms reduce output in order to be able to charge more. There is one exception, however: if a monopolistic firm can charge different prices to different customers, it does not need to reduce output to increase profit. The ski industry shows the truth of this. As the industry has consolidated, daily prices have soared, extracting more money from price-insensitive skiers.But if you buy a season pass early, or if one of your friends does, you can get a ticket for much less, so the slopes are always busy. Last year, 65 million people visited US resorts, the highest number on record, according to the National Ski Areas Association, an industry group. Vail's sales rose by 14%. Season passes now account for 61% of the company's lift pass revenue.
Yet the transformation is not entirely popular. As the number of people with lift passes grew, "the locals started to lose patience with all these people coming into town", says Winchester.On a t-bar at Breckenridge, Vince, a paramedic who has skied there since the 1980s, says Vail "is the evil empire".With many more people skiing, lift queues have increased, especially on the best snow days.A ski culture that was aimed at locals has turned into a mass business.Property prices soared and with them property taxes.Vince says he's had to sell his house and move further afield.Coming back to ski is more difficult.Traffic jams snake up the mountain, and parking is no longer free.
Vail may soon be reaching the limits of its ability to get more skiers onto the slopes. Although lift passes can be obtained cheaply, the cost of accommodation has rocketed. Last year the company raised its minimum wage to $20 an hour, but staff shortages remain a problem - in cities where houses now cost millions, that only goes so far.On the busiest days, the company has had to resort to rationing measures - limiting the number of passes available and drastically increasing the cost of things like parking, in order to stop the crowds.Many variants of the Epic and Ikon passes now have 'closed dates', where pass holders cannot ski.This has helped control some of the worst crowds, but at the cost of upsetting customers.However, on snowy weekends, social networks are always full of videos of long queues at ski lifts posted by grumpy skiers.
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Wealthier skiers are increasingly avoiding resorts on package deals. In December, Powder Mountain in Utah announced that it would adopt a model where only local owners are allowed to ski on certain chairlifts. The idea is to capitalise on property sales, offering private skiing without the crowds. "To remain independent and uncrowded, we had to change," explains Reed Hastings, the company's boss. In Montana, the Yellowstone Club offers exclusive skiing - to those who can afford an initial fee of $400,000, an annual fee of $40,000 and to buy or build a $3 million property in the area.Frustrated by the crowds and exorbitant prices, many Americans rush to ski in Europe, where passes can still be bought cheaply on the day; trains and buses ferry people from airports; and the feet of lifts are surrounded by flat blocks rather than car parks.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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A friend mentioned this pass cost to me on a recent ski holiday - they knew someone who was in the states visiting family and thought they'd have a couple of days skiing whilst they were there and how the cost of the pass was horrendous considering what we just paid for a week. This lead me to comment on a Facebook post and I've come to the conclusion that there plenty of places to ski in the world without visiting America - as much as I'd love to see "lake effect snow".
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Previously, season ski passes had been a niche product, generally sold to local residents for up to $1,500.
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Which is the point some of us have tried to explain. Vail and the epic pass has made things cheaper for skiers! As well as opening up way more opportunities for them as instead of having a season pass for a single resort they now have access to many all over the world!
Yes, if you try a buy last minute you will pay through the roof. But Brits accept that for transport. There is a whole thread on here about easyJet flights going on sale because you need to book as soon as they come out for the best price.
I showed the break even points in another thread. If you are skiing around 10 days per season the cost per day works out about the same as Europe. But there are cheaper options like Tahoe local pass or lake Louise spring pass where it's even less days to break even with the cost per day of Europe.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
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Previously, season ski passes had been a niche product, generally sold to local residents for up to $1,500.
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Which is the point some of us have tried to explain. Vail and the epic pass has made things cheaper for skiers! |
Cheaper for some skiers
Vail’s trick seems to have been getting a lot of people to spend more on skiing than they did previously. They did that by making it better value to do a lot of skiing. For some that better value represents a saving if they were already doing a lot, but for most they’re spending more and doing more.
And it seems capacity is now an issue, and when supply is limited prices go up so enjoy your savings while they last.
Also shows why existing euro holiday skiers or skiers who aren’t price sensitive (most people on this site) don’t want this model. Holiday skiers can’t ski more to benefit from the value, price insensitive skiers don’t want busier resorts.
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So Vail has made skiing too expensive and unaffordable. Yet the resorts are too full? 
UK skiers are stuck in the mindset that everyone flies out to a ski resort for their 1 week holiday each year. The epic pass is aimed at skiers living within driving distance of resorts (similar to euro season passes!) which considering they have resorts in 13 states covers quite a significant population. I don't think committing to 10 days skiing over the whole winter is a huge ask.
As I've said before epic pass is great for skiers, not so good for tourists. I'm not sure why there is such an outcry that people want better deals for those that just want a few days. Its a fairly normal pricing strategy - pretty much all gyms have an extremely high day rate in comparison to a monthly membership. Think of it as a loyalty bonus, you commit to a pass early you get a better price.
I don't complain that those willing to pay upfront for Amazon prime get unlimited free deliveries while I have to pay for my 1 or 2 per year.
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Also shows why existing euro holiday skiers...
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Again you just mean Brits. If there was a Europe epic pass bought out tomorrow with 6 big resorts there would be huge uptake across europe. Like in N America it would undercut the regular season passes, so it would be a no brainer for many. An improvement as they would have the flexibility to ski more resorts.
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Holiday skiers can ski more by committing more of their holidays. That they don't want to is scarcely Vail's problem. I suspect the idea of a Euro epic pass would be to capture those that do want to add a couple of cheeky long weekends to their std spec holiday. And of course have them spend that extra time at Vail properties. Where it falls down is if Vail hasn't vertically integrated to capture lodging/ eats/ ski rental/ lessons dosh from those extra trips.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| So Vail has made skiing too expensive and unaffordable for some. Yet the resorts are too full? |
Why the question mark and the confused face?
There’s no contradiction. Vail had made skiing too expensive “for some” (I added the last part in bold), and cheap for others. As long as the latter outnumbers of the former, the resorts are a lot more full as a result. Vail wins.
If you’re part of the latter, you win too (I know you do). The average Brits? They’re the former. They lose. Naturally they moan. But they can continue to ski in Europe, which has a pricing modal that suits them better.
Or rather, the average Brits worked out what works in Europe. They can keep on doing that. The few who figured out how to work it in North America now cross the pond regularly. Others proclaim they’re “rich”. Whatever floats your boat (or floats your skis).
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Fri 22-03-24 3:05; edited 1 time in total
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| So Vail has made skiing too expensive and unaffordable. Yet the resorts are too full? |
No, I never said they made it expensive or unaffordable, I said they persuade more people to spend more. You may be a minority who now have Epic instead of a more expensive season pass, but most will have gone from no season pass to Epic. I.e. they’re spending more on skiing in total, per winter (and also skiing more to get the value which is good if you can, it’s cheaper per visit than it was.)
| boarder2020 wrote: |
| As I've said before epic pass is great for skiers, not so good for tourists. |
Weird distinction, some skiers are tourists, some tourists are skiers. But I’m agreeing with you, Epic is great for people who live within a day trip of a ski resort. And there is nothing unfair about it. No complaining here.
| boarder2020 wrote: |
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Also shows why existing euro holiday skiers...
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Again you just mean Brits. If there was a Europe epic pass bought out tomorrow with 6 big resorts there would be huge uptake across europe. Like in N America it would undercut the regular season passes, so it would be a no brainer for many. An improvement as they would have the flexibility to ski more resorts. |
Not just brits, no. Anyone who doesn’t live within easy reach of resorts would lose out if an Epic style pass came to Europe.
I’m sure you’re right that the uptake here would be huge if it happened, look at the Verbier thread. If Verbier was on Epic then the whole of Geneva would buy it.
But whether it would have the same impact on growing the profitability remains to be seen. The 1 week a year skier is a much bigger part of the market, how many would come anyway, how many would buy Epic and ski more, how many would be priced out and would the extra Epic sales make up for the lost revenue? And do the resorts have the capacity required to make it work? Epic cuts the cost of skiing per day but increases the days skied. But for large parts of the winter the resorts already run close to capacity, so would Epic just discount those days but without capacity for more days revenues drop?
For me personally Epic would be a bit poo-poo. I tend to ski 10 days per winter, so right around the break even point. Now I can ski anywhere, buying a pass as I want. Vail style pricing wouldn’t cost more but would limit where I can go to only resorts on that pass, and require me to plan which pass to buy well in advance. Back to the tread title, it would add complication for no gain.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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So just to update I have priced up pretty much every option - and perhaps unsurprisingly- they all work out pretty much the same for our 10 day trip!
Given which days we’re out there and not wanting to ski every day (heresy for some!) we’ve gone for a midweek spring season pass for Sunshine and a Lake Louise plus card
Getting excited for Sundays departure!!
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To put simply - if a Brit is going to ski in USA - researching the minefield that is lift passes is crucial, as is planning ahead.
If buying an EPIC or IKON season pass, whether that be a local or full pass you really need to plan for, at the very least 10 days skiing.
And if travelling that far I know for myself a total trip of nearly 3 weeks (to accommodate travelling time and being a tourist) makes sense.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| Tom_Ski wrote: |
Talking about complexity, we were skiing in Switzerland in January, staying at Lauterbrunnen to ski Wengen and Murren. We needed to take a train from GVA to get there. Try working out which combination of train and lift tickets would be best for a 12 day visit with around 8-9 days of skiing, interest in using the trams for hiking on off days, and maybe a day trip or two on the train. Hellish it was, hellish.
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Hardly. A 3 or 4 day Swiss rail pass plus a combo of lift passes would suffice. Just because the uS doesn't have a functional long distance public transit system doesn't mean that elsewhere is unnecessarily complicated. Within a small region how would one ski Kirkwood, Heavenly and Northstar ( on the same pass)without one's own transport? |
Ironically given Vail Resort's parking management woes, they axed the shuttle service that used to run from South Lake Tahoe to Kirkwood and NorthStar. Shame as it gave the option to ski 4 days a week away from Heavenly on the Tahoe local passes without having to have a car rented for the whole period, meant you could have some apres before leaving at the end of the day as well.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Also history is the ferry from South Lake Tahoe to Tahoe City. This was a beautiful and fun way to ski then-Squaw Valley or Alpine Meadows while staying in SLT. It didn’t save you any time, but there is no finer way to experience the beauty of Lake Tahoe then to be on it.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Scooter in Seattle wrote: |
| Also history is the ferry from South Lake Tahoe to Tahoe City. This was a beautiful and fun way to ski then-Squaw Valley or Alpine Meadows while staying in SLT. It didn’t save you any time, but there is no finer way to experience the beauty of Lake Tahoe then to be on it. |
Long live Squaw!
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FAQ
