 Poster: A snowHead
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@abc ...I just simply find it fascinating that skiing is for the wealthy in the US and for normal folk in Europe (generally). That's all.
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Again, it's simply too broad of a generalisation. Most of my ski bum friends head to n America because it's cheaper than Europe (cheaper season passes, cheaper accomodation etc.). I've previously ended up going back to Canada, as even with the flights it still worked out much cheaper than I could go to Chamonix.
£1000+ pp is fairly normal for a 1 week package trip from UK to go skiing in a big euro resort. For anyone living in Colorado they can spend less than that on an epic pass have have unlimited skiing at a bunch of marquee resorts within driving distance. It's hard to argue the 1 week package trip is better value.
I've pointed out lake Louise spring pass gives you 60+ days for less than a 1 week pass in tignes costs.
You also can't just choose to ignore the mom and pop places, which offer affordable skiing, just because they don't fit your narrative. It's a bit like me saying cycling is unaffordable and only for the rich as a top of the range bike costs £8k+ while ignoring there are perfectly adequate bikes for much less. Also, where do you think the "normal" European families are skiing (clue: it's not the likes of Zermatt or 3 valleys!).
Again, the pricing strategy is different, and you are getting different experiences between Europe and n America. So some people will get more value from one or the other. But to say skiing is for rich people in N America and regular people in Europe is just way to broad generalisation.
But I tend to agree with @abc, that you want to rant and have already made up my mind. Probably bought a flight to n America and didn't do your research and get your pass in advance and now are about to pay through the roof for tickets.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@boarder2020 .. nah, i left the US years ago and moved to Europe. i've skied and snowboarded in both the Alps and the Rockies. both fantastic places, big time. there are annual passes in the Alps as well, very similar to the Rockies. i just stick to snowboarding in the Alps, simply MUCH more affordable. simple
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Basic supply and demand. There are more ski stations in Europe (3954) than ski lifts in the US (2895)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
there are annual passes in the Alps as well, very similar to the Rockies.
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Show me an annual pass in the Alps that offers anything close to the value of epic pass. Superskipass and magic passes are similar cost to epic, but don't offer the same quality of resorts. The big euro resorts individual season passes cost more than an epic pass.
If you want to make the argument that skiing is more expensive in N America, season passes and multi resort passes are the complete wrong strategy. They are where n America is clearly superior value.
And I'm talking about the full epic pass. When in reality most people would be fine with just the local pass which was £530 this year. At that price you probably only need around 8-9 days per season to break even with euro skiing.
The argument for n American skiing being a lot more expensive is you just look at people skiing a couple of days per season. But even then, as said above, nobody really pays window rates there are loads of offers plus buddy and ski with a friend tickets floating around.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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There are more ski stations in Europe (3954) than ski lifts in the US (2895)
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People tend to forget that there are hundreds and hundreds of small ski resorts in Europe that never get mentioned, even this forum. Notre Dame du Pré was mentioned in a post somewhere and I just looked up the price of a pass - 12€ a day for an adult. There are whole tracts of the continent that never get mentioned.
There are stations in the Massif Central, Vosges, Black Forest, Tatras, Carpathians, Apennines, Julian Alpes, Sierra Nevada and many other areas. Someone even told me he had skied in Cyprus.
Out of curiosity what do these North American season passes cost? I paid 624€ for my Paradiski pass (which breaks even at 13-14 days), but if I was only going to ski weekends ie 2 days in any 7 it would have cost 240€, which IMHO is very good value.
Paradiski is by no measure the largest ski area in Europe but it does give me access to 160 lifts and 425 km of pistes and a lot of off piste.
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My favorite place to ski is Whitefish, Montana. It is half the daily price of the larger resorts in Colorado and Utah. A season pass is $739 if bought in the summer. An IKON Pass which covers many of the larger North American resorts is $1,159.
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| johnE wrote: |
| Quote: |
There are more ski stations in Europe (3954) than ski lifts in the US (2895)
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Out of curiosity what do these North American season passes cost? |
I paid £872.66 for my sons season pass for Killington, VT.
That compares with £375 for his PDS season pass as an under 26. (The first year I 've paid as under 12s get a free season pass with an adult pass purchased.)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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[quote="johnE"]
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...Out of curiosity what do these North American season passes cost?... |
Epic pass was $909 this season. Thats just over £700
Ours will be used for 2 weeks in Whistler and we'll take?advantage of the partner deal with 3v's, to get a weeks pass there. Those 3 weeks will be costing us <£240 each for the passes or <£38 a day. On top of that there's 20% off both food+drink on the hill and accomodation in Whistler.
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The US is a significantly richer country than the EU and UK.
A $300 lift ticket is a nothing burger for the top 10% who ski.
Savvy riders never pay full price.
You can always find discounts, vouchers, offers, advance purchases, to get the headline price way down.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| eaglesandsnowboarding wrote: |
| https://www.cheapestdestinationsblog.com/2018/10/31/cheaper-ski-europe-than-usa/ |
The article is comparing single day passes in USA Vs single day pass in Europe. It's cherry picking the worst deal. But none of us are arguing that a single day in usa is going to be cheaper than a single day in Europe anyway. Also this is a predominantly British forum so unlikely that 1 or 2 days is relevant at all to most. I suspect most would be looking at 10 days, in which case epic local pass is similar to what you'd pay for 10 days in Big euro resorts. Also the epic pass can then be used for "free" days at places in Europe as per adithorps message.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@whitegold
The US is a significantly richer country than the EU and UK.
Good point!
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@boarder2020 but multiple day tickets in the Alps also brings the price way down and there are several packages in the Alps that offer low priced season passes, just like in the US.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Whitegold wrote: |
The US is a significantly richer country than the EU and UK.
A $300 lift ticket is a nothing burger for the top 10% who ski.
Savvy riders never pay full price.
You can always find discounts, vouchers, offers, advance purchases, to get the headline price way down. |
But equally rich Switzerland’s lift passes cost a fraction of those in the US. UK skiers not being a big market in Switzerland, relatively speaking.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I live in the New York City area. Just did 6 days skiing (8 total days inclusive of travel) in the Dolomites (stayed in Selva). All in, was cheaper than if I did similar trip to Western NA (which is the only part of NA that compares to Alps skiing), and the travel was more or less the same in terms of time commitment (a bit longer in the air to Europe, but either way, both travel days are limited to just traveling). And much much cheaper if you truly compare apples to apples, insofar as in Europe its seems that ski in ski out is more or less everywhere, but in NA it is relatively rare, and therefore extremely expensive. The convenience of my hotel to skiing and shops/restaurants would have costs much more in NA.
But as stated above, I did notice the big difference in on mountain personnel. Far less in Europe at the lifts, etc. Much more in NA in terms of lifties and ski patrol.
For East Coast USA skiers, IKON/EPIC works if you can commit to buying the pass in the Spring or Summer and can buy a pass that includes mountains you can easily drive to in the East, and a mountain that you want to fly to out west. Probably would have been cool for me to have gotten early whichever one works at Dolomiti Superski and worked off of that for the remainder of the season, but for a variety of reasons I can't commit that kind of coin that early.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@wjrlaw sounds awesome.. i go to Livigno (Italian Alps) every year. i definitely recommend it. Awesome village and ski area.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@eaglesandsnowboarding,
I've just returned from a fabulous weeks skiing in the 3 Valleys - cost of list pass for 6 days was 355 Euros - £303.10 ( plus an additional 19.80 euros (£16.96) for carre neige )
Going to Tahoe in March for 17 days - staying in Heavenly. Trying to decide which pass to get was not easy!! (OMG thats an understatement) !! Eventually opted for the Tahoe Local Pass (EPIC) - which gives us Heavenly along with Northstar & Kirkwood during week days, we are not travelling during any black out dates. Total cost for this was $492.47 pp (£396.54pp)
I find it so frustrating and unfair that we will have several other decent 'hills' within an easy drive, but as they come under different pass companies we are unable to access them unless we purchase a day ticket - at an extortionate rate! Travelling that far (from UK) and having those restrictions is very unfair! And I'm not in a position to be able to buy several different season passes.
So I'm hoping the 3 areas we have to ski will seem worthy of the cost - considering the extent of the 3 valleys
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| eaglesandsnowboarding wrote: |
| @boarder2020 but multiple day tickets in the Alps also brings the price way down and there are several packages in the Alps that offer low priced season passes, just like in the US. |
Ok show me a multi resort pass in europe that offer the value of epic pass.
The season passes for euro big euro resorts are not "low priced". Tignes Val d, verbier, Chamonix, 3 valleys are all more expensive than the full epic pass.
Epic local pass was approx £500 this season and will be sufficient for most. Tignes best deal is 7 days for approx £300, unfortunately they don't do a deal for longer trips (much to the annoyance of my mate who is doing a 14 day trip, where the cheapest option is 2 7 day passes. So 14 days on epic pass would be cheaper.
Again, most Brits going to N america are going to do 10 days. At which point it's about the same cost for passes as it would be in Europe. For shorter trips n America will be more expensive. Although like I pointed out there are cheaper options e.g. lake Louise spring pass is £350, so over 7 days you are talking about £7 per day more expensive than a tignes val d pass. Hardly vastly different.
If you want to make the argument that high single day cost skiing in N America is a huge barrier for entry for new skiers I'd agree. But for people that love skiing, it's never been better. The multi resort passes have made it cheaper and provided a huge amount of flexibility.
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I find it so frustrating and unfair that we will have several other decent 'hills' within an easy drive, but as they come under different pass companies we are unable to access them unless we purchase a day ticket - at an extortionate rate! Travelling that far (from UK) and having those restrictions is very unfair! And I'm not in a position to be able to buy several different season passes.
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I find that such a weird take. 3 valleys to La Plagne is a relatively easy drive, but you wouldn't expect a pass at one to cover the other. It's like buying a ticket to a museum and complaining it doesn't cover all the other museums in a city.
Your 3 valleys skiing worked out at £50 per day. Tahoe is costing you £23 per day. You could buy 2 single day passes for palisades (which is really the only "destination resort" not included on your pass) and your skiing would be £40 per day, still cheaper than your euro trip.
If you go expecting huge areas with many km of piste linking up different areas (like 3 valleys) you might find Tahoe underwhelming. If you embrace the controlled off piste and get in the bowls, glades, chutes etc. and embrace the differences you will probably have a good time.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
Your 3 valleys skiing worked out at £50 per day. Tahoe is costing you £23 per day. You could buy 2 single day passes for palisades (which is really the only "destination resort" not included on your pass) and your skiing would be £40 per day, still cheaper than your euro trip.
If you go expecting huge areas with many km of piste linking up different areas (like 3 valleys) you might find Tahoe underwhelming. If you embrace the controlled off piste and get in the bowls, glades, chutes etc. and embrace the differences you will probably have a good time. |
Totally agree with the foregoing, and the scenery is second to none.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@boarder2020,
THE WINTER SKIPASS – SNOW CARD TIROL
Over 90 ski areas, 1.100 lifts, 4.000 runway kilometres. Experience skiing fun throughout much of Tirol with only one card. All information about the Snow Card Tirol are here: www.snowcard.tirol.at
This card is about a 1000 bucks
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@boarder2020, yes - understand and appreciate your view - would have liked to have had more options available to extend our ski areas without having to buy multiple season passes.
Would love to ski Palisades at least once during our trip - but at $194 each for one day and you have to specify which day - until we arrive and get a 'feel' for the area, just simply wont know till then. If I've missed anything at getting any tickets at a more reasonable price - please advise?
Certainly looking forward to the scenery and partake in many other activities the area has to offer.
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another thing. Americans get 2 weeks holiday on average. thats 10 friggin working days PER YEAR. jeeez. so for them to buy ski season passes not even sure makes much sense. They probs go skiing lets say once a year (5 days) then go to some beach the other 5 days.. man, 2 weeks in an entire year is absurd...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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It seems like the snowheads from the other side of the pond are forgetting that the vast majority on here are UK based and go on ski trips/vacations of usually 7 days duration and only on a couple of these trips a season.
So season passes are of no interest; the majority are only interested in a few days skiing in an area.
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| Mosha Marc wrote: |
It seems like the snowheads from the other side of the pond are forgetting that the vast majority on here are UK based and go on ski trips/vacations of usually 7 days duration and only on a couple of these trips a season.
So season passes are of no interest; the majority are only interested in a few days skiing in an area. |
Quite so. The majority of British skiers will do one week per season, maybe two if lucky.
Americans are also culturally much more likely to get in their car and drive for hours and hours to get some skiing in on a weekend. I went to Whistler a few years back for 3 days after a business trip in Seattle; after meeting some holidaying Yanks I commented that it was a fair old drive for me, about 5 hours or so. They said that the majority of them had driven up from California, and one had driven from Texas.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
another thing. Americans get 2 weeks holiday on average. thats 10 friggin working days PER YEAR. jeeez. so for them to buy ski season passes not even sure makes much sense. They probs go skiing lets say once a year (5 days) then go to some beach the other 5 days.. man, 2 weeks in an entire year is absurd...
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Yes because nobody skis at weekends 
Although I don't disagree the amount of holiday they get is pathetic. But a lot are just doing weekends (easy to rack up 20+ days per year just skiing weekends). You could potentially use 4 holiday days and get 9 ski days skiing using MLK holiday and 2 weekends.
But the reason to buy a season pass is that it pays for itself so quick. If your only option is n American day tickets and you plan to ski even a few days per year it really is a no brainer. E.g. Breck is around $200 per day, or epic local pass is $676 and gets you unlimited days at Breck. Of course this is what we were trying to explain to you, the model there is different to Europe - huge day prices to push people into buying multi resort passes (which potentially offer great value) very early.
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All information about the Snow Card Tirol are here: www.snowcard.tirol.at
This card is about a 1000 bucks
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It's more like $1150, so more expensive than full epic, getting towards double of epic local passes. I don't think it's a bad pass at all, in fact I can see why someone that loves ticking off new places and piste skiing might prefer snow card. Personally I find the epic resort choices much better - but I prefer the controlled off piste so I have my biases towards that set up. But i don't see how you can argue Tirol snow card offers better value when it's more expensive - as both offer more quality skiing than most people can realistically cover in an entire season.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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One of the problems with an Epic or IKON pass is that you have to buy them well in advance. They are off sale right now. Decide over Christmas to go skiing? Too bad, pay the full price. Six day lift ticket right now for March at Keystone (also covers Vail, Breckenridge, Beaver Creek) is $1,188.
Regarding two weeks PTO in the US, I get four and most people I know have either three or four weeks. The people with two weeks probably aren't in the ski class anyway. It is also common for Americans who work from home to take "working vacations" and not use up much time at all.
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| Mosha Marc wrote: |
It seems like the snowheads from the other side of the pond are forgetting that the vast majority on here are UK based and go on ski trips/vacations of usually 7 days duration and only on a couple of these trips a season.
So season passes are of no interest; the majority are only interested in a few days skiing in an area. |
So, it isn’t the ski pass is “expensive” in the US. It’s only expensive for “UK based skier who only go on ski vacation of usually 7 days”!
Another misconception that gets repeated over and over and over is North America resorts have not many kms of piste, therefore is “small” by the definition of again, UK based skiers’ perspective.
Basically, some vegetarians are saying steak houses all have limited and expensive vegetable dishes. Yeah, right! 
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You know it makes sense.
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@abc, er, well we are all (99%) UK based skiers who go on ski vacations of usually 7 days.
That's why your passes are so expensive for us.
That's the point.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Mosha Marc, but given 99% of UK based skiers don’t go skiing in the US anyway. Does it even matter whether it’s “expensive” for them? Is there even “a point”?
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Poster: A snowHead
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This back and forth is needless. The EPIC/IKON model is designed to maximize mountain profits in a market that largely does not include skiers from Europe. Time will tell whether it is/was a smart move - these pricing schemes are still relatively new. Note, though, that more European mountains are getting onto these plans. If this trend continues, the "value" provided by this model will be, for all intents and purposes, extended to the European/UK skier. But for now, it seems to make it costly for most UK skiers to come over and hit a mountain, or mountains for 7-10 days or so.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Mosha Marc, but who's going all the way to N America for 7 days skiing? I think most would say that's not worth it. I'd say the majority of Brits going to N America are doing 10-14 days. An epic local pass is going to be similar cost to 10-14 days skiing in Europe.
Although if you are doing a 7 day n America trip and 7 day euro trip in the same season go to one of the epic euro resorts and the pass can still be great value.
Or if you are just going for a week maybe get a lake Louise spring pass which was £350 last year.
Basically it's more nuanced than simply one is more expensive than the other:
For people that just want to ski a few days per year north America will always be more expensive. For longer trips n America works out cheaper per day skiing and usually way more flexibility in that the pass can be used at multiple resorts. The flip side is you have to buy the pass very early. The tipping point is around 10 days.
However, cheap doesn't mean value. Some people will prefer one or the other and for them it's probably worth paying a little more.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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As a Whitefish local, I've come out ahead (well ahead!) every year for 20 years on the season pass. Usually breakeven vs. window price is a mere 7 to 9 days. When I used to stop for lunch it was to eat my own food and sit at their tables and use a collapsible cup with their free hot water and my own tea bag and their plastic cutlery and sugar and sweetener and ketchup or whatever. And free parking.
These days I eat on the lift, a habit from COVID times that I've kept up.
Skiing is anywhere in 3000 acres. Patrolled, avi-mitigated. You're allowed to use the lifts and leave that terrain, much like Europe, then it's your own risk. But treed skiing, cliffs, gorges, go ahead and hit them, if you're hurt, free sled ride to the clinic. End of day sweep should find you if you're conscious and not in a tree well.
Free tours twice a day.
I'm old, my season pass is dirt cheap. There was a time I would have been free, but it turned out there were way too many seniors racking up significant vertical. Kids 6 and under are free. Reduced rates for military, students, teens, juniors. Buy online in advance for substantial savings.
Just don't walk up at the last minute to buy a ticket.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| eaglesandsnowboarding wrote: |
| Why are lift tix in the US sooooo much more expensive than in Europe (Alps)? I find this so odd. It's like 4 times the cost in the US. For example, Ischghl in Austria, which is a massive modern resort is around 70 euros per day. Park City in the US which is similar in size, is like $300 a day. Insane. Clearly, skiing is more for the wealthy in the US and skiing in Europe is totally ok for the average Joe... fascinating |
I think the crux of the matter is that large US ski resorts have a much higher staffing costs as they have to employ many more people to ensure the whole ski estate is safe and secure for skiiers. They also have extra people manning lifts to direct people in the queues. Also different ownership model where the big resorts have now sold out to private equity who are looking for profits no matter what while in Europe many ski areas are owned by the local villagers. We known this first hand as we are planning a trip to Whistler for Feb 1/2 term and finding all elements eye wateringly expensive compared to our home village of Châtel in France. We thought we were doing well as we managed to bag 4 “free” return flight to Vancouver of air-miles.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
and use a collapsible cup with their free hot water and my own tea bag
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Now that I like 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
@Mosha Marc, but who's going all the way to N America for 7 days skiing? I think most would say that's not worth it. I'd say the majority of Brits going to N America are doing 10-14 days. An epic local pass is going to be similar cost to 10-14 days skiing in Europe.
Although if you are doing a 7 day n America trip and 7 day euro trip in the same season go to one of the epic euro resorts and the pass can still be great value.
Or if you are just going for a week maybe get a lake Louise spring pass which was £350 last year.
Basically it's more nuanced than simply one is more expensive than the other:
For people that just want to ski a few days per year north America will always be more expensive. For longer trips n America works out cheaper per day skiing and usually way more flexibility in that the pass can be used at multiple resorts. The flip side is you have to buy the pass very early. The tipping point is around 10 days.
However, cheap doesn't mean value. Some people will prefer one or the other and for them it's probably worth paying a little more. |
I think @boarder2020 has the conclusive answer here. Went to Whistler for 2 weeks in Dec 22 on a full EPIC Pass, which covered the 3Vs HT23 as well, better than breakeven compared to 3 weeks at the 3Vs and would have done even better if I took my long weekends more strategically, i.e., somewhere other than the 3Vs. Given the scale of the EPIC European partner network, a well-organised (doing about a 3 week season, visiting each of the 3Vs, the 4Vs and Arlberg/Andermatt (imho, a pretty good circuit)) European skier could get better-than-Europe pricing by buying an EPIC pass and never going to North America: the year before that I did a week in the 4Vs and a week in the 3Vs on an EPIC pass that I had bought in anticipation of a Covid-cancelled Whistler trip, lost a little bit of ££ on that trade, but not much.
I have something of a conundrum for the 24/25 season in that we're probably doing Xmas in upstate New York about 20m from Hunter (a small, not-very-good hill in the Catskills) with (possibly our last  HT trip to the 3Vs in 2025). Conditions will be variable, I will likely not get more than a couple of days skiing (or riding  ) and the day rate is something like $149 which is objectively terrible value for Hunter, and a local pass (which I think is even blacked out for Xmas week) doesn't give you the European partner resorts. Will need to commit to a big season (for your average working stiff) to make the maths work.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| @Mosha Marc, but who's going all the way to N America for 7 days skiing? |
Us - but regretting we booked it and too late to cancel
Hotel for a refund. We were able to bet free return flights LHR - Vancouver and thought it would be great to get away from what will be an exceptionally busy 1/2 term in France this February as the big European centers have clashing school holidays with London. 2 families of 4 each with kids 9 and 12. We are okay with the travel as used to it but underestimated the faff and cost involved as we have very busy lives our own place and equipment in France.
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@sibhusky, please stop talking about Whitefish! And if you're reading this, it's a terrible place, please don't come. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| pfreet wrote: |
| @sibhusky, please stop talking about Whitefish! And if you're reading this, it's a terrible place, please don't come. |
Says the guy who just earlier in this thread told everyone it was his "favorite place to ski".
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@sibhusky, Maybe this: means something different where you are from? Don't take everything so seriously.
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FAQ
