 Poster: A snowHead
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To show that you'd need to demonstrate that the careless folk on the hills with their phones would not be there if they didn't have the phones, which seems unlikely
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I think if some of them didn't have their phone to take a photo to upload to Instagram they may think twice about going 
I do a bit of hiking guiding in kyrgyzstan so am based out there quite a bit in summers. As you can probably imagine the trails are more remote and much less developed than the kind of stuff 99% are doing in Europe. There is certainly no mountain rescue, so your on your own if things go wrong. We get a lot of pretty inexperienced hikers coming through that go out with just a gpx file. At first I'll admit I looked down my nose a bit at them - "they don't even know how to read a map" and thought it was a bit risky.
In the many that have went out with just electronics 2 groups have had problems (1 battery died and they had to retrace route back, other had a paper map as backup they managed to use). On the other hand plenty more going out with maps end up getting lost and not finding what they were looking for. (Of course it says more about their map reading skills than usefulness of maps).
I think navigation apps/gpx files have made hiking much more accessible to the general population, which must overwhelmingly be a good thing. Ime the risks are actually pretty low (almost zero if you have at least 2 phones/watches in the group and a power bank).
I wonder how many cyclists are still taking out a map? Bet 99.9% just use the GPS computer. I know for silk road mountain race and cycling across France and Spain I didn't even consider paper maps.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@jedster, I think that sums it up beautifully! On our boat, we actually have several chart plotters including two tablets and they sometimes show different things (one, invaluably, showed a significant underwater obstruction in a spot where we were aiming to anchor, on the Isle of Wight). The main boat plotter showed nothing. Sometimes a significant navigation mark clearly visible half a mile away is on one but not the other. It's surprising how many calls you hear, in the Solent, from yachts who are requesting a tow because their engine has broken down..... always gets a superior laugh from those of us who consider ourselves "proper yachties". Belt and braces.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| johnE wrote: |
@LaForet
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This lets me download and print out topographical and geological maps of selected areas I'm traversing.
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Geological maps? I love the idea that you are aware of the geology of the area you are travelling over. It's great. |
When I was a geology student, I had to do annual summer field work alone in the Welsh and Scottish mountains and actually create geological maps as part of the training. I usually used a base map on the OS 1:25,000 scale, or even 1:10,000 which has fantastic detail and is really useful for on-the-ground navigation especially where the more common larger scale maps would be ambiguous. But of course, 1:10K isn't practical for large areas or longer distance traverses and even 1:25K will need multiple maps for even relatively small areas. I do like the way that the SwissTopo app jumps between scales pretty smoothly and how you can simply click to reveal the geology if you have that option.
For those of you in the 4 Vallées, the geology map shows why the marmottes are all concentrated in a band below Savoleyres - it's a 'lens' of soft salty rock sitting between the more common slate layers. So it's easy for them to excavate. It's also the reason why there are some big sink-holes just off-piste to the left of the run between Taillay and Etablons lift summits - the salt washes away easily in spring/autumn rains. If you dropped into the big one, it would be a major effort to get you out (it's on an innocuous non-piste section between two reds which is often skied by people who I'm fairly sure don't realise how deep it is). The eponymous Col des mines was a mining site for lead but also has Uranium deposits associated with the lead-bearing hydrothermal intrusions. And there is a small coal mine above Chez Simon - in summer you can see the small hole that remains. For those of you with a geo-historical bent, the salt mines at Bex, between Martigny and Montreux, are worth a visit - you take the miner's train deep into the mountain and take a walk around the various larger caverns and tunnels. Not for anyone with claustrophobia, however.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Wed 10-01-24 17:26; edited 2 times in total
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Do the « mappies » carry one of these when out in London in case their phone battery runs out?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Well, funnily enough I did have one of those, a few years ago, when I had to find an unknown address in London. It had been in my bookcase for at least quarter of a century. I stood outside the tube station looking at it and felt very conspicuous - but then having identified where I was going, and that I just had to cross the big road in front of me and then do a series of left turns and right turns (there were any number of options). I put it away and enjoyed the 20 minute walk, not having to keep looking at a bloody phone! And next time I went I didn't have to consult anything. I find that when I find my way somewhere with a map it's easy to do again. Just following a satnav and I have no clue. I kind of switch brain off.
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I used to have the A to Z pages covering central London in my Filofax (!). Now I can find most places I want to go without a map. I may need to look at googlemaps to orient myself before I set out if it’s somewhere I haven’t been before.
This is in contrast to the delivery people who blindly follow their GPS to the mews behind my building and can’t imagine that a GPS may be misleading or that a post code may cover more than 1 street 
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Last winter I was off having a solo back country adventure (low angle and no meaningful avi risk) and ended up in a drainage system in deep snow in total ping pong ball conditions. Couldn’t see much past my outstretched hand.
A digital topo map on my phone with my inreach doing the location duties got me through the most brutal 4 hours of combat skinning/stream wading I’ve ever done, right to a hut for the night with no fuss - I wasn’t even worried it would go wrong on me.
I would have been screwed if I was just using a paper map in such low viz in complex terrain.
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| BobinCH wrote: |
Do the « mappies » carry one of these when out in London in case their phone battery runs out?
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That is an utterly ridiculous comparison. DO I really need to list the ways that it is different having a flat battery in London vs on top of a mountain?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@jedster, could be fatal if you’re south of the river 
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@boarder2020, curious as to how you transfer your tracks from fatmap to watch and what sware/app/watch combo you use. I use garmin GPS and my computer to pre plan routes for cycling and love it. got a garmin Fenix watch as a present and havent used it for ski stuff at all but would like to "record" routes and or plan some for touring or safe descents. Had tried a few apps years ago but never really worked out.
Be interested to learn about your process
EDIT just saw FatMap is now part of Strava, could be a nice solution....
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Arno wrote: |
| @jedster, could be fatal if you’re south of the river |
Yh but if you're foolish enough to do that without a guide it's on you init
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@skimottaret, yes I've been using a free strava trial to use fatmap and make and download all my routes for winter now.
It's very easy to build a route in fatmap, simply click and it puts a dot, click again and it puts the next dot and joins them up. It will route using trails if possible or you can select it to just put a straight line between dots (probably the more useful for ski touring routes). Once it's finished, save, then export as a gpx. When you click on the downloaded gpx it should give you the option to open it with your watches ecosystem. Then transfer it from there to the watch itself.
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Back to the OQ, over here the Epic (Whistler, Vail et al) people said no more paper maps for them....so no choice, its the phone. I hate this (a) because I think paper maps are superior; and (b) it makes me feel old in my ways, and I don't need any help in that department.
I have some trail maps on the wall in my garage. I look at them often and smile. F the phone! 
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You know it makes sense.
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When I used to lead our small touring group I would prepare our route on MemoryMap and then download it to my wrist-mounted Garmin. This had no map but it could point you to the next waypoint. I'd also print out, on several pages of waterproof paper, a copy of the IGN 25K map with the waypoints and route marked. This was useful if we had to make any modifications en-route. Everyone else in the team also had their own paper map - just in case. This Garmin uses replaceable AA batteries so, using Energizer L91 Ultimate Lithiums, it's a simple job to make it last for a tour.
The PC software could also generate a fly-through of the route. This was useful in preparing the brain for what was to come.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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@hang11, thanks will have a look , for me a simple record and save feature from my watch is what I’m mainly looking for .
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| @hang11, thanks will have a look , for me a simple record and save feature from my watch is what I’m mainly looking for . |
Thats really easy to do on a Garmin, just set the activity and it records the GPS track, and then that can easily be exported as a GPX from Fatmap, which automatically updates when you stop the activity.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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So my take on this:
GPS maps are great and very useful.
For short missions (say a little hike or MTB trip) I use them all time.
For a proper mission (say a 4000m peak or multi day ski tour) then a paper map, folded in water-proof, case still has a place.
Even if it is just used as a back up.
Why ?
- No battery required.
- No need to take gloves off to navigate the page / scroll in & out.
- Useful for proper micro navigation. Scale remains the same.
- Phone can be kept dry in a pocket.
Ultimately a GPS drains battery faster than any other smart phone application.
If your smart phones dies AND you lose the ability to navigate AND call for help then a minor problem rapidly becomes serious.
The paper map might only be a back up - but it is a reassuring one to have at times.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@hang11, @boarder2020, thanks, I had tried Motion X and Outdoor active in the past and didnt really get on with either. Like the supported garmin / strava link for fatmap but like all these things is it worth the subscription?...
Might just try to save some tracks to strava for future reference to see how that goes.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@skimottaret, if you have a Strava subscription you get FATMAP for free (same company). I reckon that’s definitely worth the fee.
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But you also don't NEED a Strava subscription to use the basic tracking/map viewing features of FATMAP. You don't get the more advanced features like route planning but at least you have a choice.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
I wonder how many cyclists are still taking out a map? Bet 99.9% just use the GPS computer. I know for silk road mountain race and cycling across France and Spain I didn't even consider paper maps. |
Indeed, I cycle a lot and would never consider taking a paper map. I tend to do route planning digitally on something with a bigger screen (like a computer) and then use my Garmin when outside with phone as a backup option. Battery pack too as secondary backup if it's a long trip.
Public transport, navigation around cities etc, all via my phone.
Skiing and backcountry, and hiking, I'm almost entirely looking at maps on the computer and phone in advance. When outside, using phone with offline topographic maps loaded along with routes, and also tracking location + altitude with my watch. I would take a battery pack and possibly a second GPS device as backup, and a Garmin Inreach as secondary backup, but I've never had to use any of them. The chance of all these devices becoming unusable is vanishingly small.
I know how to map-read but I find that paper maps are redundant in almost all situations. Probably the thing they are most useful for is spreading out on a table if you want to explain a route to a group of people. The size of the map gives much better context vs. showing the same map zoomed-in on the computer (or phone) screen.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I had settled on taking both but season over for me. I slipped and fell walking into work this am and broke my femur. Waiting for surgeon now.
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@davidof, that's very sad. It goes to show going to work is much more dangerous than skiing  Though I think statistically staying at home is even more dangerous.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@davidof, very unlucky - I hope the surgery is successful and I wish you much better luck in your journey of recovery
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
@skimottaret, yes I've been using a free strava trial to use fatmap and make and download all my routes for winter now.
It's very easy to build a route in fatmap, simply click and it puts a dot, click again and it puts the next dot and joins them up. It will route using trails if possible or you can select it to just put a straight line between dots (probably the more useful for ski touring routes). Once it's finished, save, then export as a gpx. When you click on the downloaded gpx it should give you the option to open it with your watches ecosystem. Then transfer it from there to the watch itself. |
Thank you for that! v helpful
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| davidof wrote: |
| I had settled on taking both but season over for me. I slipped and fell walking into work this am and broke my femur. Waiting for surgeon now. |
Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. All the best for the rehab
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You know it makes sense.
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@davidof, I just reread your post and see you broke your femur. That is serious and I wish you all the best for a speedy recovery
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| davidof wrote: |
| I had settled on taking both but season over for me. I slipped and fell walking into work this am and broke my femur. Waiting for surgeon now. |
Holy feck. What a horrible injury. Hope it's not to painful
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Poster: A snowHead
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but like all these things is it worth the subscription?...
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As much as I've said how great it is I still wouldn't pay for a yearly subscription. I simply wouldn't use it often enough to make it worthwhile and as said above the free version is pretty good on its own for planning (but can't create a gpx route). I'm current on one of the month free trials Strava semi regularly offer. I'm building all my routes for this winter and summer now and saving them for future use.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Mjit, @Inboard, just did a little morning walk , hit record on watch and all connected up to FatMap via Strava. Beauty and no need for a subscription. @boarder2020 agreed and I rarely do anything these days that needs maps and compasses, just wanted to record some of my favourites as can never remember entrances and exits when following mates..
@davidof, Jesus, that really is rotten luck.. Hopefully not too long of a recovery, but man that musta been some fall to break a femur. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| davidof wrote: |
| I had settled on taking both but season over for me. I slipped and fell walking into work this am and broke my femur. Waiting for surgeon now. |
Jeezo....terrible luck! 
All the best for speedy and full recovery.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@davidof, damn! Agree it must've been quite the fall, glad you sacrificed the femur instead of the cranium! Mend well and soon.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| davidof wrote: |
What is the word on the street about paper maps vs smart phones?
I want to cross the Ardeche (on skis) and my plan is to get a paper map but do people just use smartphones for navigating these days? |
IMV, in good weather conditions nothing beats a smart phone. Your exact position shown on a good map, is just the best thing you can have in complex terrain. E.g. going down Mont Pourri in the afternoon, I saw some lone tracks which deviated significantly from the recommended ski route cutting that one short to the west some way above the refuge. Especially as a lone skier you can't follow any tracks you encouter just because they somewhat lead in the right direction. At least as long you're not sporting a Thovexian "I drop everything" mentality.
| hang11 wrote: |
FATMAP + paper map. Usually send a gpx to my watch but can’t really read it without reading glasses which is an extra faff.
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Fatmap is nice, but ya know what's even better? TrekMe App (afair Android only) allows to download IGN topographic maps (and others) onto your phone.
That's why all the guides carrying big battery outdoor phones around. Limit is really bad weather, for which you need a proper outdoor GPS (Garmin) to solve, if you are inclined to do so. That became cruelly evident during the 2018 Haute Route desaster. Paper map is good for planning, but I hardly get it out on the mountain any more.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Scooter in Seattle wrote: |
| @davidof, damn! Agree it must've been quite the fall, glad you sacrificed the femur instead of the cranium! Mend well and soon. |
A stupid slip crossing the road. I was walking between two offices so classed as a work injury, which is better for insurance Surgery done, hospital really good but they are busy. At least two months off work I've been told by the surgeon.
I'm thankful to have access to hospitals and be employed.
I normally put tracking on when I go out because an accident like that can turn into a drama very quickly. I really couldn't move from where I fell. Luckily a shop keeper who was opening up came to my aid.
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@davidof, so sorry to hear that! Horrific. To fall on a pavement, with all the skiing you do! I often say that I'm more scared of falling on a pavement than on a piste, and it's so true. Get well soon and hope it heals up quickly.
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Will they do a DEXA scan - major trauma for a routine fall?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| davidof wrote: |
| Scooter in Seattle wrote: |
| @davidof, damn! Agree it must've been quite the fall, glad you sacrificed the femur instead of the cranium! Mend well and soon. |
A stupid slip crossing the road. I was walking between two offices so classed as a work injury, which is better for insurance. |
Hidden black ice under fresh white snow?
Or ice in the dark and building shadows?
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@pam w, in the UK they probably would if it were a post-menopausal woman, but it wouldn't be routine for a man of @davidof's age.
@davidof best wishes for a speedy recovery
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