 Poster: A snowHead
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Terrible for the family. I’ve never been off piste with a guide without them ensuring I have the right avi kit.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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That's a great video
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Whitegold wrote: |
Have posted on here for many years -- the stats clearly show most Alpine avalanches happen on northerly slopes above 2000m in the afternoon time.
Surprised how few skiers know this.
This avvy looks like a classic of the genre.
NW, 2300m, near 4pm.
Northerly slopes tend to be steeper, rockier, the afternoon "heat" destabilizes the bottom, middle, or top layers by melt, and they slide away more readily.
Never ski a northerly offpiste trail above 2000m after midday. |
This post should be pinned to the top of the off-piste forum!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@phil_w, off piste is always a risk of some kind, so surely by it's very nature you're risking rescuers whenever you set ski outside the line of the piste?
That whole gully looks like a bit of a terrain trap, once you're in it there are 3 different aspects that can slip above you. Kind of thing we've probably all skied, especially if "it's only a 2". A grim reminder that there's always a risk.
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| greengriff wrote: |
| Whitegold wrote: |
Have posted on here for many years -- the stats clearly show most Alpine avalanches happen on northerly slopes above 2000m in the afternoon time.
Surprised how few skiers know this.
This avvy looks like a classic of the genre.
NW, 2300m, near 4pm.
Northerly slopes tend to be steeper, rockier, the afternoon "heat" destabilizes the bottom, middle, or top layers by melt, and they slide away more readily.
Never ski a northerly offpiste trail above 2000m after midday. |
This post should be pinned to the top of the off-piste forum! |
2 issues with that. Aren't those stat"s skewed by the increased number of people on northfacing slopes because they're less affected by the sun/warming than others? Also as @Whitegold, is widely regarded as a troll, most people will ignore his comments.
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@adithorp, Useful map - certainly looks dodge in that format; excuse my ignorance but assume these maps are readily available / accessible?
Remember a fatal slide on the Bellecombes black run in L2A several years back - steep, short but also innocuous and parallel to the lift access - had only skied it a couple of weeks prior but fresh snow had closed the run at the time of the avalanche; another 'guiding' error . . .
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@Belch, its a screen grab from Fatmap app. There are various terrain overlays available within it. This is with the "avalanche" overlay that shows avy prone slope gradients as a heat map.
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To early to speculate the motives to why the guide lead this group here.as it was clearly unsafe
Sometimes guides are tempted by €€€ ..
Last season in St Anton a local guide lead a Father and Son (from Vienna) into Schöngraben/Törli (aka death valley ) in Level 4 .. The Father watched the guide and his son perish. He raised the alarm .. It took over 24 hours to recover them
At the time The Avalanche dannger was posted and annoucrd on the PA system everywhere..there was no chance anyone could not of known. Invincible comes to mind .
There must of been a reason for this guide to take these folks in there? We will never know.
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| Quote: |
not enough recent snow for a slab avalanche.
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You don't need recent snow to cause a slab avalanche e.g. wind loading or persistent weak layers
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| greengriff wrote: |
| Whitegold wrote: |
Have posted on here for many years -- the stats clearly show most Alpine avalanches happen on northerly slopes above 2000m in the afternoon time.
Surprised how few skiers know this.
This avvy looks like a classic of the genre.
NW, 2300m, near 4pm.
Northerly slopes tend to be steeper, rockier, the afternoon "heat" destabilizes the bottom, middle, or top layers by melt, and they slide away more readily.
Never ski a northerly offpiste trail above 2000m after midday. |
This post should be pinned to the top of the off-piste forum! |
I'm not so sure it should. One fact most avi incidents do happen on N slopes but not for the reason he said.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Mother hucker, I'm sure it shouldn't!
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How would the reduction method have rated the route choice of both parties? I'm not familiar enough with the area to judge but suspect this could have been a marginal "go".
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You know it makes sense.
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@boarder2020, I should have clarified, being a good looking off piste run directly accessible from a piste and leading back to a lift I had assumed that it would get skied out after every snowfall. If this did happen then it would normally prevent buried weak layers from persisting. This effect likely prevents an awful lot of sidecountry avalanches. Presumably this hasn't happened here though. Perhaps this run is so much harder than the rest of terrain in St Gervais that the resort doesn't attract enough people to turn this type of run into a mogul field
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Mt Joly is by far the most interesting bit of terrain in St Gervais (which otherwise is better known for its easy blue pistes).
There is some pleasant and easily accessible side-country in the bowl either of the top chairlift.
And also a nice long / remote run off the back to St Nicholas.
Without passing judgement (and reading between lines) this sounds like unlucky accident on a tracked slope.
The really sad part of the events is that neither of the victims were wearing beacons.
While the ski instructor (who was quickly rescued but is now apparently under investigation for man slaughter) was properly equipped.
More info and photos below.
https://www.chamonix.net/english/manslaughter-investigation-after-2-english-die-in-avalanche-on-mont-joly
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Poster: A snowHead
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First of all my condolences to the father, family and friends of the two skiers and my respect for the mountain rescue and pisteurs who worked in difficult circumstances.
The start point of the avalanche is just above the top station so the zone wouldn't not see much skier activity. The start point was a typical zone where snow accumulates - north side of a ridge with a funnel into a gulley (it is a stream tributary).
The avalanche bulletin said this
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Human Triggering: Some old hard slabs can still be found above 2000/2200 m on W, NW, N, NE, E faces especially in areas that are rarely skied. The buried fragile layer (very thin, difficult to detect) is at the interface with the refrozen old hard snow. Size 1 to 2 (small to medium) possible. These slabs are difficult to spot.
In addition, the SW wind may have formed some new hard slabs, particularly near the Aiguilles Rouges ridges. In the high mountains, these slabs are rare, difficult to spot and harder to trigger, but thicker (locally 50/80 cm?).
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What Bruce Goodlad's video showed was a thin buried weak layer on the hard snow with a small slab on top. The slab became a problem because of the terrain.
What triggered the slide is another question.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
While the ski instructor (who was quickly rescued but is now apparently under investigation for man slaughter) was properly equipped.
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Be careful.... That's not correct
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| red 27 wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
While the ski instructor (who was quickly rescued but is now apparently under investigation for man slaughter) was properly equipped.
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Be careful.... That's not correct |
That is what is being reported (for right or wrong) locally
Of the six people, three found themselves caught in the snow, including the Megevan ski instructor, who escaped with slight physical injuries. This mountain professional, from the international ski school, was the only one equipped with an avalanche victim detector
https://www.chamonix.net/english/manslaughter-investigation-after-2-english-die-in-avalanche-on-mont-joly
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| SnoodyMcFlude wrote: |
| @phil_w, off piste is always a risk of some kind, so surely by it's very nature you're risking rescuers whenever you set ski outside the line of the piste?... |
Straw man, that's not the point I was making, which was specifically that no rescuer would attempt to intervene without first assessing the risk. It's not John Wayne stuff. By your reasoning walking down the street risks the lives of Ambulance drivers, so you should stay home, except there is always a risk of some kind there too.....
The chamonix.net link talks about the party being "supervised" more than once.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@red 27, You're right, Manslaughter is one word.
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| phil_w wrote: |
| SnoodyMcFlude wrote: |
| @phil_w, off piste is always a risk of some kind, so surely by it's very nature you're risking rescuers whenever you set ski outside the line of the piste?... |
Straw man, that's not the point I was making, which was specifically that no rescuer would attempt to intervene without first assessing the risk. It's not John Wayne stuff. By your reasoning walking down the street risks the lives of Ambulance drivers, so you should stay home, except there is always a risk of some kind there too..... |
You've called me out for a straw man and then used a straw man argument yourself  
Your point wasn't at all clear that it related to rescuers assessing risk:
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| Obviously not, anyone who has ever ventured off piste is potentially risking rescuers. |
No, the first rule in the book is precisely not to do that. |
Simply put, in general off piste rescues are riskier than on piste, so by being off piste you're increasing the risk for a rescuer. That doesn't mean you've made it highly dangerous, and there are still very different levels of risk to off piste, but IMO being off piste pretty much automatically increases the risk profile for any potential rescuer. You're welcome to have your own view.
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@mtsuit, I am intrigued that your link suggests police are looking for skiers to be charged with manslaughter. Although the accuracy of the Daily Mail is always suspect, it refers to "cross-country skiers" which doesn't seem credible (they most likely mean "ski tourers") and shows a photograph of a different aspect of Mont Joly, the side that is pisted.
I am no ski tourer myself, but haven't heard of an established itinery above that region. However there is a footpath along the ridge which could presumably be used by ski tourers in winter. If they were doing that, following standard safety practice for ski touring, would they be culpable if they inadvertently dislodged snow above an area without any nearby piste or habitation?
I guess it is a legal matter.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Thanks @davidof, it does seem that prosecution is pretty routine in such cases.
In the current case, given it was fairly late in the midwinter afternoon (reportedly 1540; the Mont Joly lift closing time was 1545) I assume any ski tourers on the ridge would have been heading from Hauteluce/Les Contamines towards St Gervais. I think the Refuge du Mont Joly on the ski run down from the Epaule lift is open for ski tourers in the winter, and possibly the Refuge de Porcherey lower down towards St Nicholas. Coming from that direction I am not sure whether they would have been able to see the combe where the avalanche occurred or whether anyone was present there; they should have known that it wasn't an area where they were putting any pistes at risk.
However presumably more details will emerge if a prosecution is launched.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| j b wrote: |
However presumably more details will emerge if a prosecution is launched. |
Yes, that the moment details are a bit vague and changing somewhat. I really can't imagine a prosecution against two ski tourers - if they actually exist, going anywhere though - are the ski tourers the ones that were caught higher up the slope? In which case I assume they are known. The Spanish off piste skier case I linked to is interested "prove we triggered the avalanche" - of course this is not possible with 100% certainty.
I note your interesting analysis.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| j b wrote: |
Thanks @davidof, it does seem that prosecution is pretty routine in such cases.
In the current case, given it was fairly late in the midwinter afternoon (reportedly 1540; the Mont Joly lift closing time was 1545) I assume any ski tourers on the ridge would have been heading from Hauteluce/Les Contamines towards St Gervais. I think the Refuge du Mont Joly on the ski run down from the Epaule lift is open for ski tourers in the winter, and possibly the Refuge de Porcherey lower down towards St Nicholas. Coming from that direction I am not sure whether they would have been able to see the combe where the avalanche occurred or whether anyone was present there; they should have known that it wasn't an area where they were putting any pistes at risk.
However presumably more details will emerge if a prosecution is launched. |
I think you are assuming a bit too much, the ski tourers could just be skinning for turns and could even have been intending to descend to join where the instructor's party was. I don't think there is any way of judging where they were going to or from without asking them.
I'd be surprised if the tourers are charged with anything. It is not as if their route was endangering a piste and on a risk 2 it does not appear reckless in any way.
The ski instructor appears to have be unlucky (as were the guides who were killed with clients on the Domes des Miages last season) but what was not unlucky was his choice to take a sizeable group to a fairly remote location surrounded by steep ground without transceivers.
There is one aspect that noone has commented on yet (I think). IMV too many French ski instructors rely on local knowledge to take groups into off piste terrain without suitable safety equipment. That always risks being a heuristic trap. And yet here I don't think the local knowledge should ever have encouraged that action. Others may have better information but I know those slopes a bit although I've never skied in that gulley. I've also read quite a lot about ski touring and off piste skiing in the region with a focus on the Les Contamines side but including Mont Jolie and I have read several times that Mont Jolie is a high risk for avalanches - it has lengthy and fairly featureless slopes with more than enough angle to slide and the combination of grassy slopes and schist outcrops makes the snowpack vulnerable to full depth slides. It is an area where I would always apply an extra layer of caution.
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| jedster wrote: |
| IMV too many French ski instructors rely on local knowledge to take groups into off piste terrain.... |
There is always the possibility that the local knowledge applied was that this was an area that wouldn't be skiied out. For good reason.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Whitegold wrote: |
Have posted on here for many years -- the stats clearly show most Alpine avalanches happen on northerly slopes above 2000m in the afternoon time.
Surprised how few skiers know this.
This avvy looks like a classic of the genre.
NW, 2300m, near 4pm.
Northerly slopes tend to be steeper, rockier, the afternoon "heat" destabilizes the bottom, middle, or top layers by melt, and they slide away more readily.
Never ski a northerly offpiste trail above 2000m after midday. |
Hmm. I'd disagree with that based on the known conditions both before and after the avalanche. The fellow doing the tap test showed the main issue. Wind slab likely failed due to additional weight from a skier on a very weak surface of faceted snow. Classic slab avalanche. Not helped by the shallow snowpack and the steepness of the terrain.
Time of day only related to the timing of the wind transported snow overloading the buried weak layer or the likely weight of a skier collapsing the snowpack.
Condolences to friends and family. Good reminder that especially early season shallow snowpacks with wind transported snow in steep avy terrain can be deadly. Be safe out there.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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A British skier and her 22-year-old son killed in an avalanche in France have been named.
The family of Kate Vokes, 54, and Archie Vokes say they are "beyond heartbroken" by the "tragic accident".
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Poster: A snowHead
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Are there quite a lot of conclusions being jumped to here?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@pam w, Totally agree , there could be relations or friends on here of the people involved.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| pam w wrote: |
| Are there quite a lot of conclusions being jumped to here? |
There are two safe conclusions. One that the instructor/guide taking people off-piste without the appropriate safety gear was irresponsible possibly criminally so. Second, those skiing off-piste without the appropriate safety gear were reckless and two of them have paid the ultimate price.
It would be interesting to tally up the avalanche deaths one year, with a note against those that were doing idiotic reckless things at the time of their death, such as skiing without appropriate gear, skiing slopes with 4+ risk, skiing above terrain traps etc. etc. Personally it would be nice to have an idea what the risk of skiing off-piste is once you have eliminated the foolhardy from the statistics to put things into perspective given I don't engage in the vast majority of reckless behaviour that seems to be associated with avalanche deaths.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@jabuzzard, do you really know that an instructor took people off piste without safety gear? Who told you?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| pam w wrote: |
| @jabuzzard, do you really know that an instructor took people off piste without safety gear? Who told you? |
It has been extensively covered in the press that they didn't have safety gear.
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Well it must be true if it's in the papers and widely repeated on social media.
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| Quote: |
It would be interesting to tally up the avalanche deaths one year, with a note against those that were doing idiotic reckless things at the time of their death, such as skiing without appropriate gear, skiing slopes with 4+ risk, skiing above terrain traps etc.
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It would be interesting. For example last year 2 died skiing an area of lake Louise that was roped off for avalanche danger and they didn't even have any equipment. In n America 30 people died in avalanches last year (that includes non skiers e.g. snowmobilers), so it only takes a few to massively skew that data.
I can't remember the last time I read an avalanche fatality report and thought "they did everything right and we're just unlucky". Sure, in some cases mistakes made were ones that most of us could easily fall into. But the majority of times it was huge mistakes that anyone that had even took a basic course should never make. For example so many where there were multiple burials, which should really never happen if you are skiing conservatively one at a time between islands of safety.
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Might be being churlish here (apols as don't mean to be) but with the ever rising cost of lift passes why are obvious 'lift accessed' side country areas / off piste zones like this one not regularly checked and either blasted 'safe' or roped off prior to skiers getting anywhere near it?
I'm sure I've skied similarly risky areas / conditions (with zero avi gear and being led by instructors) in my youth but do remember the US (Vail specifically) being completely different gravy and that was over 30 yrs ago . . . dodgy side country was clearly marked / roped presumably because the safety / suing culture was at a different level than europe even then!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Belch, north American resorts are set up differently. Everything inside the resort boundary is avalanche controlled, not just the pistes. So you can safely ski off piste without the need for avi equipment. (Someone will point out in bounds avalanches do occur - but they are so rare you probably have more chance of dying in transit to the resort). Imo a much more fun set up and completely removes any potential grey areas.
I think many euro resorts do actually do some avy control of terrain close to pistes. However, I'm sure they don't want to make a big thing of this as:
- they don't want to assume any liability should something happen, at the end of the day they are not responsible for the area being safe.
- it creates a huge grey area. What constitutes "lift accessed". If I take a huge traverse to the backside of a mountain away from any piste technically I could argue it is lift accessed. Better to have the black and white on piste or off piste. But even then many snowheads will tell you that "between pistes" and "side of pistes" are safe.
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According to the BBC “Contrary to previous reports, it is now thought the guide accompanying the family was not wearing an avalanche beacon. The devices are used to locate those in the snow.”
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