 Poster: A snowHead
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@GreenDay,
I absolutely agree with you.
If we were always looking behind us there would be even more collisions.
From the start of the video you could see the lower skier drifting left. The filming skier was "showing off with his latest gopro thing" and he should have moved to the right side of the piste early on.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@welshflyer, Yeah, was amused when he said he "owes me a sharpen" , can only assume he hasnt done much steep icy stuff ! 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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No Harm, No Foul! Snowflake 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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This is exactly why I always worry about my son during or outside class. Every single week of classes he’s been on, without fail, someone has taken him or someone in his group out from above. I actually saw this first hand last week when someone was going too fast from behind and clipped my boy, knocking him over. The piste was quite wide and there was more than enough space to pass by. The teacher started shouting at the idiot who then just sped off without saying sorry or even checking if my boy was ok. Another day he said someone ploughed through their entire group from above.
And now we have people expecting the downhill skiers to look up at every turn and that they are at fault if not? Now I see why the idiot just sped off. The entitlement these days.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Might be two pre arranged drama queen skiers needing something but having absolutely nothing to film in flatland .
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| But to claim this is an illustration of why the rule that the downhill skier has priority is not appropriate is simply bonkers. |
OK it's not a perfect example, but take that example and make it more extreme where front guy pulls an even harder sudden left turn, and put them on a busier piste with more skiers/boarders, how is it safe and right that front guy can do such a manoeuvre without a care in the world?
| welshflyer wrote: |
| If we were always looking behind us there would be even more collisions. |
Not necessary to "always" look behind, but wouldn't you agree that experienced skiers actually have a situational awareness of what is around them, not just what is down the fall line?
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| Pyramus wrote: |
OK it's not a perfect example, but take that example and make it more extreme where front guy pulls an even harder sudden left turn, and put them on a busier piste with more skiers/boarders, how is it safe and right that front guy can do such a manoeuvre without a care in the world? |
it isn't, it is stupid to do that but it is difficult to come up with a better rule than the uphill skier has to avoid the downhill skier, for example by skiing more slowly.
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It's so obviously the back guy the question is daft.
The question could have been phrased in a way something like, 'could the guy at the front have done more to avoid the potential collision?' and the answer would then be something worth discussing. But that is it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Pyramus, You are a danger to others by suggesting that the uphill skier is not totally at fault. The rules are simple, as outlined by "Davidof" earlier in this thread. Your attempt to put fault on the lower skier confuses matters, leading many inept skiers to believe they have a God-given right to proceed at speed downhill without due regard for others.
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@Pyramus,
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how is it safe and right that front guy can do such a manoeuvre without a care in the world?
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You've had the FIS rules quoted, and you've seen the comments of some very experienced skiers as well as at least a couple of instructors.
So how many times and in how many ways do you need to be told you're wrong?
If you're just winding people up, fair enough. Otherwise I would suggest you look at your attitude to skiing and other skiers, because that sense of entitlement and failure to accept responsibility is what causes this sort of incident.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Pyramus wrote: |
| wouldn't you agree that experienced skiers actually have a situational awareness of what is around them, not just what is down the fall line? |
Beyond the fact that your general argument that the skier in front bears (at least some) responsibility is just wrong, a common sense / experienced safe skier doesn't expect everyone around them to be an 'experienced skier' hence when coming from behind is observing those in front and anticipating / allowing sufficient room for any 'erratic' behaviour from the person in front. As you say, your video is certainly not a good case for demonstrating why this principle is wrong. Not sure I would consider myself 'experienced' - it is a somewhat relative term, but i do try to be a safe skier and I am pretty sure that from day 1 of skiing I was made aware of this basic rule of skiing.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Is my speed appropriate, can I pass without endangering the downhill skier, will my action in passing bring me into conflict with other skiers .
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Lets settle once and for all, unless the person in front is a mutant and has eyes n the back of their head, they are NEVER at fault.
Yes they can cut a line. Yes they can hog the whole piste. Yes they can change direction suddenly. All of that though doesn't really matter if the person behnd them gave them space, controlled their speed and above all else was patient.
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You know it makes sense.
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| prometheus wrote: |
| Is my speed appropriate, can I pass without endangering the downhill skier, will my action in passing bring me into conflict with other skiers . |
Are you trying to convince others or yourself on this?
Luckily nobody got hurt. Take note of the above advice, move on.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Pyramus, the point you seem to be missing is that you are not entitled to overtake and any time that conveniences you. You can overtake if you can complete the manoeuvre safely. It would have cost this guy about 1 second to put a little check in and continue at the speed of the guy in front rather than overtaking
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Pyramus, This_be a rather pointless thread.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| davidof wrote: |
| Pyramus wrote: |
OK it's not a perfect example, but take that example and make it more extreme where front guy pulls an even harder sudden left turn, and put them on a busier piste with more skiers/boarders, how is it safe and right that front guy can do such a manoeuvre without a care in the world? |
it isn't, it is stupid to do that but it is difficult to come up with a better rule than the uphill skier has to avoid the downhill skier, for example by skiing more slowly. |
OK so basically, the FIS rules are too simplistic and not fit for purpose, allowing downhill skiers to take the p**s and never be at fault whatever the circumstances and despite whatever stupid manoeuvres they decide to pull off right in front of other skiers.
Case closed. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Pyramus wrote: |
| ... front guy can do such a manoeuvre without a care in the world? |
Yes, that's about right. They have just as much right to enjoy the piste in a way which they want, or are able to control. The skier or boarder behind needs to take account of that, because the pistes are not your private race track.
There are, of course, responsibilities that the skier downslope has. If you are joining the piste (perhaps from the off-piste, or just starting your run) then you have to do so with due regard to what is up slope of you. So no skiing directly in front of somebody who has a reasonable expectation that you will join the slope in a safe manner.
You say your example wasn't perfect. I disagree, I think it was a perfect example, just not proving the point you wanted it to make.
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@Pyramus, they may be simplistic, but clearly too complex for you.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Pyramus wrote: |
| Case closed. |
Silly.
Mind closed, perhaps. Perhaps a massive sense of entitlement so you can ignore all other slope users, expecting them to get out of your way. Bet you click your poles as well...
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| Pyramus wrote: |
| and despite whatever stupid manoeuvres they decide to pull off right in front of other skiers. |
If they're right in front of other skiers, then the other skiers are too close.
I haven't bothered to watch the video, but I still know who is in the wrong just from the initial description.
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@rob@rar, ha, not a fan of pole clicking generally but I thought this was a rare occasion where it might be helpful
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| Arno wrote: |
| @rob@rar, ha, not a fan of pole clicking generally but I thought this was a rare occasion where it might be helpful |
By the time the uphill skier realised they were on a collision course it was far too late to shout at or make another kind of audio signal at the skier in front. Not to mention the skier in front was not in clear control of his speed and line so couldn't have done anything with that information (not that he should be expected to get out of the way of the skier behind him).
I've been skiing pretty slowly with Jane this week, and someone clicked their poles behind me on a cat track approaching the Derby chairlift above Vallandry, I wasn't very polite as they passed me.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Pyramus wrote: |
OK so basically, the FIS rules are too simplistic and not fit for purpose, allowing downhill skiers to take the p**s and never be at fault whatever the circumstances and despite whatever stupid manoeuvres they decide to pull off right in front of other skiers.
Case closed. |
Pyramus, you did well with the first effort, caught a few who ought to know better. Now you are just trying too hard with some obvious trolling 0/10 for this latest effort.
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| Pyramus wrote: |
| davidof wrote: |
| Pyramus wrote: |
OK it's not a perfect example, but take that example and make it more extreme where front guy pulls an even harder sudden left turn, and put them on a busier piste with more skiers/boarders, how is it safe and right that front guy can do such a manoeuvre without a care in the world? |
it isn't, it is stupid to do that but it is difficult to come up with a better rule than the uphill skier has to avoid the downhill skier, for example by skiing more slowly. |
OK so basically, the FIS rules are too simplistic and not fit for purpose, allowing downhill skiers to take the p**s and never be at fault whatever the circumstances and despite whatever stupid manoeuvres they decide to pull off right in front of other skiers.
Case closed. |
the lower slope person has no idea what is going on higher up the slope. You are coming down, you have full vision. You failed in your job of being safe & putting the other skier in harm's way.
It is pretty obvious from the video the skier was traversing across the slope. It is also clear you thought you could wizz pass the skier. He may have caught the sound of someone higher up closing in & panicked, hence the sharp turn. You are 100% at fault & there is nothing to mitigate that.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Bet you click your poles as well... |
Is that rude/frowned upon? I thought its quite an unobtrusive way of letting someone know when you are close but in their blind spot or passing in narrow areas?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@rob@rar, yes, clicking etc is pointless once someone has started a manoeuvre but I can see a use just to let someone know you’re there - eg on a cat track where you’re in their blind spot and going at basically the same speed. Definitely not something to use to bully nervous skiers out of the way
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| Pyramus wrote: |
| davidof wrote: |
| Pyramus wrote: |
OK it's not a perfect example, but take that example and make it more extreme where front guy pulls an even harder sudden left turn, and put them on a busier piste with more skiers/boarders, how is it safe and right that front guy can do such a manoeuvre without a care in the world? |
it isn't, it is stupid to do that but it is difficult to come up with a better rule than the uphill skier has to avoid the downhill skier, for example by skiing more slowly. |
OK so basically, the FIS rules are too simplistic and not fit for purpose, allowing downhill skiers to take the p**s and never be at fault whatever the circumstances and despite whatever stupid manoeuvres they decide to pull off right in front of other skiers.
Case closed. |
You should run your own ski resort and then you can install whatver rules you want.
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You know it makes sense.
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@ster, +1. It does seem to polarise opinions though.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@ster, seems it a bit like dinging the bell on your bike in a shared use area:
It can be useful
It can be obnoxious (depending on how you do it)
Some people take offence if you do it
Some people take offence if you don’t
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Poster: A snowHead
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| ster wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| Bet you click your poles as well... |
Is that rude/frowned upon? I thought it's quite an unobtrusive way of letting someone know when you are close but in their blind spot or passing in narrow areas? |
What do you think the downhill skier should do with that information?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Anyone who films themselves while skiing along is automatically at fault for being a narcissistic bell-end.
No-one cares about your ski video going down a blue run at 35kmh.
Case closed.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| MorningGory wrote: |
| @ster, +1. It does seem to polarise opinions though. |
It would seem so! 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| OuatteDePhoque wrote: |
No-one cares about your ski video going down a blue run at 35kmh.
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This thread says "hold my beer"
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| ster wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| Bet you click your poles as well... |
Is that rude/frowned upon? I thought it's quite an unobtrusive way of letting someone know when you are close but in their blind spot or passing in narrow areas? |
What do you think the downhill skier should do with that information? |
When I hear it, usually as I have two ears I can tell roughly in what direction they are relative to me if I cannot see them and, as its narrow, I do not change direction radically or stop suddenly or unduly (as some do), do not zigzag over the whole piste to leave some room if they want to pass. Generally try to remember its not just my piste and others are around and its a more confined space than normal . Things like that. I don’t take offence at someone trying to tell me where there are if they think I can’t see them.
What do you do?
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I get ready to shout obscenities at the pole clicker 
I do as you. I don’t think clicking at people who are obviously not very good skiers is helpful. If someone is obviously competent and/or dicking around on the cat track (eg by heading off the side to hit kickers back onto the track, or doing butters or whatever) I think it’s fair game
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@Pyramus, the downhill skier will often be the less experienced. After all, they are going slower. On that basis, they may well be having to concentrate on their own skiing. They shouldn't need to be looking over their shoulder as no-one should be going so fast and cutting so close to them that they can't avoid them if they make a sudden change of direction.
From my recollection of learning to ski, not all changes of direction were entirely voluntary and I often skied right up to the edge of the piste and stopped due to either trying and failing to turn or losing my bottle. You seem to be assuming that they are in full control and hence choosing to take the lines they are, which is a poor assumption.
As an experienced skier, I will if necessary hold back some distance behind a slower skier until it's safe for me to pop by them leaving enough space both for erratic moves on their part and not to scare them. These occasions are good for me practicing my own slow speed control.
The rules as they stand make perfect sense, including allowing for the slower skier being less experienced and liable to make sudden changes of direction.
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| ster wrote: |
| ... I do not change direction radically or stop suddenly or unduly (as some do), do not zigzag over the whole piste to leave some room if they want to pass. |
That's my point. You and just about everyone else in this thread has quite correctly said that it is the responsibility of the uphill skier to pass the downhill skier in a safe manner, leaving sufficient space to allow for the unexpected. But now you're saying that you give an audible signal in some circumstances with the expectation that the downhill skier reacts in some way, altering their line or holding a steady course, in order that you can pass them safely. To me that seems to be the opposite of what you said earlier in this thread. Makes no sense to me, and I think it is disrespectful of other slope users.
What do I do? Pass them safely. It might be that I can do that without altering my speed, if possible choosing to pass them on the opposite side to the direction they are turning (they head left, I pass on the right). But sometimes there's not the space to do that, so I adjust my speed and hang back until there is space to pass. It's never more than several seconds delay.
For the first time in a long time I had poles clicked at me a couple of days ago. I heard three fast pole taps behind me, but I couldn't locate whether they were behind me to the left or behind me to the right. Almost immediately the skier passed me on the right, perhaps a fraction too close but that didn't bother me. But the pole clicking was entirely ineffective if he was trying to get me to respond in a particular way because I couldn't locate exactly where it came from and I had zero idea of the way in which he would have liked me to behave. So useless and disrespectful, which is what I think pole clicking generally is.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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+1 for uphill skier being at fault (straight lining for no reason other than desire). . . the downhill skier was clearly a bit erratic so the only solution would be to slow down / make him aware (eg shouting on your left / on your right) prior to passing at an appropriate point. . . . . and yes I do click my poles as well - especially in France where it seems to be more necessary . . .!!
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Obviously the bellend with the camera is at fault. Not even a question. The guy he hits is even skiing the line at the beginning of the clip.
Now if I was the guy who was hit I'd probably be shoulder checking or hugging the margin to prevent just such an asshole taking me out.
As for downhill skier doing whatever dumb poo-poo they want. It happens. It is frigging stupid to do it without a shoulder check but hey a) people can be dumb and b) people on holiday can add a multiplier by leaving brains at home and c) a dose of entitlement.
I do however consider them fair game if they are obviously breaching Rule 5 ( 4 US) I.e. I won't go to heroic efforts to avoid clipping them, at risk of personal injury, if they've set off point blank blind into my path.
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FAQ
