@DrLawn, I'm not sure you could have bumps lessons in the '70s, other than "smoke this, then ski"
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Cheers @Old Fartbag & @under a new name, here I am trying to master new tricks.
I do feel a bit green and envious when I see young bloods zipping down the mogul fields ...
either riding the berm or just going staight over, mostly both.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
DrLawn wrote:
Cheers @Old Fartbag & @under a new name, here I am trying to master new tricks.
I do feel a bit green and envious when I see young bloods zipping down the mogul fields ...
either riding the berm or just going staight over, mostly both.
Cheers @Old Fartbag & @under a new name, here I am trying to master new tricks.
I do feel a bit green and envious when I see young bloods zipping down the mogul fields ...
either riding the berm or just going staight over, mostly both.
@Old Fartbag, awesome video. I started to learn to ski in Cairngorm in the 70s and a highlight of the week's holiday way that year's Barrymore film at the Osprey lounge. I blame him for my current bad habits.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:
I blame him for my current bad habits.
Very like me - my skiing still looks somewhat like a kangaroo coming down the hill on a trampoline
After all it is free
After all it is free
A nice watch @Old Fartbag,
It just shows you what dedication can do.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
under a new name wrote:
@Old Fartbag, awesome video. I started to learn to ski in Cairngorm in the 70s and a highlight of the week's holiday way that year's Barrymore film at the Osprey lounge. I blame him for my current bad habits.
After my first holiday at Saas Fee, I had 2 further single weeks in the Badenoch Hotel in Aviemore in the earlyish 70s. The first time we went, we got a great offer - IIRC because the hotel was fairly new and wanted to attract business. There was so much snow, we barely made it up the mountain. My Mother and Younger Brother had a real character of an Instructor called Les. Myself and my Father had a splendid young Lady called Cookie.
When my Father went to get his hired skis, he put his hand above his head and asked for skis that came up to his wrist (he was 6'2"!)....this is what he last did at Kitzbuhel in the late 50s, when wearing leather boots.
The chap disappeared into the back of the shop and appeared with some, that looked like they hadn't been used for quite some while. He couldn't ski them at all in the class, so Cookie kindly swapped with him, just to get him back down the mountain. She also struggled, as they were totally blunt. My Father then swapped for some lovely, almost new Rossis, which IIRC were mostly white.
The second time we went was much more like Scotland - cold, windy and icy. In fact it also rained one afternoon, which resulted in me breaking my leg in the heavy snow (spiral fracture of Tibia and Fibula). I certainly wasn't the only one carted off the mountain that afternoon.
I was wearing those tight "Lillywhite" ski pants with the stirrup that went under the foot. They were very tight to get on....yet the hospital removed them (while I was under a General Anasthetic), without cutting them.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
DrLawn wrote:
A nice watch @Old Fartbag,
It just shows you what dedication can do.
Dedication or Insanity?
It's Sh--t or Bust skiing at its finest.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@Old Fartbag, cool! ... "Les" ... no, my instructor was "Howard" (Scottish-Norwegian Ski School). Amusingly, at the end of the 2nd or so day, there was some discussion over the merits or otherwise of high plastic boots as one of them had just turned up with a pair, and Howard had borrowed them to try for a day. Much bemusement ensued.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Old Fartbag & @under a new name
we've moved the subject of this thread a bit "off piste" now...
But why not .. lets just swap stories Scotland, and the Norwegian ski instuctresses.
I've only been to ski in Scotland once...
Aviemore between christmas and new year 1975.
My girlfreind and I.
In my Type II VW van.
I thought Aviemore was a ski resort, like in the Alps with snow and Sunshine.
But I found out that Aviemore was a different sort of ski resort..
There was no Snow and no Sunshine the afternoon we arrived.
The plan was "Camping" in the VW van, so along to the campsite which was actually full!
Full of hard arsed hill walkers in tents.
To be continued.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:
To be continued.
I am agog....
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
snowheid wrote:
Quote:
To be continued.
I am agog....
Me and you both.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Old Fartbag wrote:
DrLawn wrote:
Cheers @Old Fartbag & @under a new name, here I am trying to master new tricks.
I do feel a bit green and envious when I see young bloods zipping down the mogul fields ...
either riding the berm or just going staight over, mostly both.
Frankly, as a Brit if that's the best we've got it's bloody embarrassing
Yeah, I saw that one too and decided it wasn't a good one to show as an example of how it 'should' be done.
In fairness though, the required result on the day is always going to be based on the conditions, the trainers ski the same run first, and indeed it will be repeated by them and the whole group several times, so although the end result doesn't look like a demonstration team it was clearly felt that it was the best that could be achieved on that slope on that day.
I think this is an important point. I saw some evidence in that video of the instructor putting in an edge check or a smear to control speed because they were travelling a bit quick in a rut with a mishapen bump ahead. I think it is wrong to describe this as old school or even poor technique - it is part of the required technical arsenal to deal with a real world bump field. SO many of these videos show small, well shaped bumps with nice soft to grippy snow. Sure you can carve your way through those but that is not the real world 90% of the time. IMV a good technique involves a whole bag of clubs to pull out when appropriate and the judgment to know when is appropriate.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
jedster wrote:
IMV a good technique involves a whole bag of clubs to pull out when appropriate and the judgment to know when is appropriate.
Yep. Ideally technique must change instantaneously to match the conditions as they change.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
jedster wrote:
Sure you can carve your way through those but that is not the real world 90% of the time. IMV a good technique involves a whole bag of clubs to pull out when appropriate and the judgment to know when is appropriate.
Indeed, which is why I’m a little dubious about BASI’s desire to see a relatively edged turn through the bumps. Maybe a good aspiration when you have nicely shaped and spaced bumps on terrain which isn’t too steep, for relatively experienced skiers. But how often do we ski perfect bumps like that? And how are skiers new to bumps going to cope with skiing a relatively fast line when they are still learning to cope with absorption and extension to keep their skis on the snow? I think the pivoting and sliding demonstrated in Andy Bennett’s video (from 11 minutes onwards) is a good starting point for skiers new to skiing bumps, which is how I was first taught how to ski them, by a BASI Trainer. Then build up to greater range of movement as you absorb bigger bumps, allowing to ski a faster descent and working towards a turn which is bit more edged and a bit less smeared. I don’t talk about carving short radius turns as I think it’s not appropriate. How many skiers can accurately carve short radius turns (i.e. with almost no rotation of the ski, just edge to edge) on pistes steeper than a modest blue, even without bumps, just a nicely prepared piste?
Sure you can carve your way through those but that is not the real world 90% of the time. IMV a good technique involves a whole bag of clubs to pull out when appropriate and the judgment to know when is appropriate.
Indeed, which is why I’m a little dubious about BASI’s desire to see a relatively edged turn through the bumps. Maybe a good aspiration when you have nicely shaped and spaced bumps on terrain which isn’t too steep, for relatively experienced skiers. But how often do we ski perfect bumps like that? And how are skiers new to bumps going to cope with skiing a relatively fast line when they are still learning to cope with absorption and extension to keep their skis on the snow? I think the pivoting and sliding demonstrated in Andy Bennett’s video (from 11 minutes onwards) is a good starting point for skiers new to skiing bumps, which is how I was first taught how to ski them, by a BASI Trainer. Then build up to greater range of movement as you absorb bigger bumps, allowing to ski a faster descent and working towards a turn which is bit more edged and a bit less smeared. I don’t talk about carving short radius turns as I think it’s not appropriate. How many skiers can accurately carve short radius turns (i.e. with almost no rotation of the ski, just edge to edge) on pistes steeper than a modest blue, even without bumps, just a nicely prepared piste?
Totally.
I actually do try to ski a lot for true carved cross-under short turns when I'm on piste (more carved than the BASI level 4 short turn vids for example) but the number of times that short carved turns are a suitable approach in REAL WORLD mogul fields is disappearingly small.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:
I did google Wayne Wong, ...
I have his book somewhere. Probably worth a few quid.
rob@rar wrote:
... I think the pivoting and sliding demonstrated in Andy Bennett’s video (from 11 minutes onwards) is a good starting point for skiers new to skiing bumps...
Oh, that's much better.
I wonder how many novices those BASI L4 types actually teach non instructors; they may have lost the plot a bit.
old skool me in 1999 below prob on 203cm Force9s and rear entry boots!
I struggled with bumps to get to BASI L2 standard, the main thing which made a difference on my resit was the guy saying "big hits" (stop sniggering children). So for me to control my speed and help get the skis around he wanted me to impact in the trough of one mogul/backside of the next to slow me down and help pivot the skis.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@rob@rar, @jedster, Yip.
After all it is free
After all it is free
DrLawn wrote:
"Bumps lessons in the 70's & 80's"? I didn't think moguls had been invented let alone lessons in them.
Joke noted. However, whilst looking for Wayne Wong's book I instead came across a book published in 1978, "Freestyle Skiing" by Matt C Broze. It's a first edition but references an earlier 1972 volume which had some of the content. My copy is a legally purchased retired library book.
Anyway, as I've found that, I'll use it to answer a very different question - "how were bumps taught in 1978". Here's an image and some text from Broze. If anyone wants to fight over this his views, then be sure to read the entire text (some of it's online; copies of the book can be found) very carefully.
I don't have the rights to this image but they probably won't mind as they may even sell more copies, and it seems a shame not to share the excellence of the illustrations.
Matt C Broze, Freestyle Skiing, 1978 wrote:
Moguls II: the way of mogul bombing
Techniques Beyond Teaching
Imagine ... you're an instructor and are known for your perfect skiing style. ... You're picking your way down some pretty mean moguls, remembering always to keep your weight forward. You are exhilarated by the speed.
Suddenly, out of the corner of your eye, a skier explotes off a mogul and goes past you travelling at least twice as fast as yourself. He is apparently completely out of control. His skis have gotten away from him; they are far in front of his body. His skis are sometimes three feet apart and seldom on the snow at the same time. He appears to be quite literally falling down the mountain. It's obvious those first aid classes you took are about to get a test.
You've come to a stop and watch, fascinated by the prospect of a crash like you've never seen before. As the seconds tick by, you marvel at how long this yo-yo is managing to delay it. Then the run flattens out and the lucky devil breaks into fluid snake-line carved turns with his feet locked together. At that moment the thought enters your mind that the mogul run you just witnessed might have been intentional.
Later you discover that this turkey skis like that almost every run and you have yet to see him fall.
...
The point I want to make is that there is no school for mogul bombing. As in anything else, the best taught themselves (at least since they surpassed their teachers). Another point I want to make is that you don't have to consciously know what you're doing in order to do it. ... Forget the rules you "know", they will only limit you.
Although he's talking about experts, those videos of sloppy L4 instructor dressage suggest much of that is still relevant.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Geez, a Wayne Wong sighting! Anybody have Jet Stix back in the day?
Man, the way the greats used to ski looks pretty quaint. Straining to overcome their yet-to-be-perfected equipment with yet-to-be-perfected technique! They were studs.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
The Sunday Times book "We Learned to Ski", was first published in 1974. Chapter 22 is called "How to master the Mogul". This is where they talk about "Avalement"....ie. Absorb the Bump; Anticipate with the upper body by facing the Falline and Pole Plant 2 feet below your feet; Steer down the back by pressing the tips down and using "a feet and knees pivoting movement". To slow down, do a quick Check before turning on the top.
It boiled down to:
Sit on the Mogul
Spike the mogul deep down
Anticipate
Spin on the Mogul
Dive into the dip
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@Old Fartbag, I have only just "rescued" my parents copy from the sis in laws cellar where it's been languishing for 18 months. A lot of wisdom still in that volume.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
under a new name wrote:
@Old Fartbag, I have only just "rescued" my parents copy from the sis in laws cellar where it's been languishing for 18 months. A lot of wisdom still in that volume.
Of course - Ali Ross was a contributor!
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
The only way to crack it is to spend a month in a bump cluster, like Verbier or Telluride, and go up and down the steep moguls all day long. Preferably, with a coach for at least 1/3 of the time.
Watching YouTube and just doing the odd bumprun every 12 months is a waste of time.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Old Fartbag, I think I have a copy of that book in my other loft, I'll check next time I'm up there.
I had to go and get it and read the bit about moguls... I never got past the snow plough then.
I'd like to see that chick on the front after all these years..
Probably on
the front cover of
"How we learned to Zimmer Frame"
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@geoffers, makes it easier, feet are mechanically locked together
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@old Fartbag
Quote:
At a later stage (Mid 90s?), one of the first VHS videos that I found helpful was Breakthough on Skis 11 - Bumps and Powder by Lito Tejada-Flores (Still available on YouTube).
Glad to see a mention of Lito on this forum. I learnt most of my skiing from his 2 books 'Breakthough on Skis' and 'Breakthrough on the New Skis'. And more recently, 'Soft Skiing' which I still take on skiing holidays.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Further applause here @Sarma, for Lito Tejada.... His video series was magnificent and in all honesty my powder technique is based purely on his instructions.
I also liked Martin Heckleman, a teacher who frequently came in for negative comment.
Further applause here @Sarma, for Lito Tejada.... His video series was magnificent and in all honesty my powder technique is based purely on his instructions.
I also liked Martin Heckleman, a teacher who frequently came in for negative comment.
I had a VHS called Mogul Mastery by Nelson Carmichael (Olympic Medallist and beautiful skier)....and when I thought "I can't effing do that", I'd put on Lito's video, which somehow seemed more manageable.
I also had some Heckleman Tapes. I thought he was OK.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
How about this for a lad from Maidstone (and World Championship bumps runner up)
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Suspect that wasn't his first time
After all it is free
After all it is free
@shep, sweet!
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Old Fartbag wrote:
Rogerdodger wrote:
Further applause here @Sarma, for Lito Tejada.... His video series was magnificent and in all honesty my powder technique is based purely on his instructions.
I also liked Martin Heckleman, a teacher who frequently came in for negative comment.
I had a VHS called Mogul Mastery by Nelson Carmichael (Olympic Medallist and beautiful skier)....and when I thought "I can't effing do that", I'd put on Lito's video, which somehow seemed more manageable.
I also had some Heckleman Tapes. I thought he was OK.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
