 Poster: A snowHead
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@satibr, I think you’ll have to abandon your idea of finding European resort that “resembles” NA experience. They’re just too different.
What you may find, are some resorts that 1) have “free ride” zones, 2) Itineraries (though that seems to be an Austrian thing), 3) skiing between the pistes. All of those, are going to be exceptions rather than the rule. Instead of skiing all over the place within the boundary of the resort, you’ll locate the few free ride zone/itinerary/safe in-between piste routes, and repeat them a few times before you get bore and move on.
You may have already noticed, from your 3 Valley trip, that typically the itineraries are “black” in nature, especially once mogul forms. If it’s icy, it can be the equivalent of double black (though why anyone would want to ski icy mogul is beyond me). In between pistes, you may want to stick to easy terrain, the equivalent of blue piste. Anything steeper than that have increased avalanche potentials.
I haven’t skied too many European resorts to say which one is better than the rest. Though of the resorts I skied, all have, a few to many, odd mogul runs you can test yourself in. 3 Valleys which you’ve been, for example, has quite many mogul runs. It’s just kind of spread out. So you’ll have to hunt them down first.
From Milan, if you have a car, St Moritz is not too far away. It has quite a bit of easy off-piste in the form of itinerary and skiing between piste. There’s even a place you can join other skiers to go off-piste off the back side of the resort. I know it has a reputation of being expensive. But my own experience was there’re reasonable lodgings to be found.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@abc, there are itineraries in Switzerland and France and Italy ...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@abc, as mentioned, in Ski Arlberg it is 300 km of pistes, and 200 km of skiroutes. That's not 'the exception'.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
Do you know of any resorts in Europe that resemble that NA experience?
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No. You may find elements, but nothing that compares to the whole experience. Ime the European stuff is more like a regular piste that's just left ungroomed. You are not getting huge zones with all kinds of varied terrain like in n America. If you want that don't go to Europe, or you need to suck it up and pay for a guide and equipment. Or accept Europe offers a different experience and embrace the many positives.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Austria
Are you a qualified Ski Teacher or Guide? If teaching in Resort areas you need to register yourself .
I would add .. Do not take complete beginners Off Piste in resort areas you could get yourself into a lot of trouble..(legally)
Just 2 Deadly examples but there are numerous over the years in the Arlberg
A few seasons ago Two Americans perished in an Avalanche ""just 10 metres"" off the side of an official Groomed Piste
Last season Two Austrians Perished in an Avalanche who were with an Austrian Guide (who also perishied) on a well known Off Piste route buried under 7metres of snow for 2 days -
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The article uses examples of people skiing closed areas inside a resort boundary. A similar thing happened last year where a guy at lake Louise skied into an area within the boundary that was closed due to high avalanche risk. Imo these examples are completely misleading, making the risk appear much higher than reality. Especially as it's very clear the areas are closed and the people have ducked a rope to get into them.
Getting buried in an inbounds slide is extremely rare. To the point it's not really worth thinking about - you are much more likely to die in a ski collision or tree well, or even driving to the resort.
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@satibr,
Skiing in North America is different to skiing in Europe. That's why Europeans go skiing in NA and North Americans come over to Europe to ski.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@boarder2020, getting buried in lift-served off piste in Europe is extremely rare and statistics here are misleading because people duck ropes or ignore warnings.
So what about this incident: "a shocking 2016 slide that captured 15 people, completely burying one skier while partially burying several members other members of the group. This latter incident was particularly notable as the group was skiing with an Arapahoe Basin ski patroller as the mountain worked to open terrain in the Montezuma Bowl sector of the resort. The area had previously been controlled by explosive charges and had already been skied by approximately 40 riders before the party was caught".
The broad point is that the domain does it's best to make everywhere safe and to close/sign anything it can't make safe but it's not possibly to do so completely. Avalanches can and still do occur - because it's the nature of nature. So in NA they may be a bit clearer about it, they may do a bit more about it mitigation wise. But as per the article the nature of the beast. On here skiing in Europe is often treated as black and white - you ski outside the markers you have the gear, the reality on ground is a bit different.
I note in the article and others I have read the discussion about having Recco or a beacon. But often that would be purely for ease of body retrieval because skiers won't have a probe, shovel or the knowledge of search technique.
So anyway don't think about it if you don't want but as I say I think the differences are over done.
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We tend to prefer to ski in ungroomed areas too. Not specifically ungroomed pistes, just anything which is 'unabashed'. this is usually side piste, ski roots or something that is clearly 'off piste'. most French and Austria ski resorts have areas like this which are easily accessible from lifts.
I haven't been for about 10 years now but one week in Danuels we spent 80% of our time on unprepared snow, really just using the piste to access unprepared area. so don't worry its out there it's just probably not marked on the piste map.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Layne wrote: |
| So in NA they may be a bit clearer about it, they may do a bit more about it mitigation wise. |
No, they don’t just do “a bit more”. They do A LOT MORE!
In NA, they do as much mitigation as European resorts do to their “piste”.
| Quote: |
On here skiing in Europe is often treated as black and white - you ski outside the markers you have the gear, the reality on ground is a bit different.
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It is “black and white” when the grey area is less than 1% (when avalanche running onto “piste”)!
By insisting on the rare exceptions to try to detract the difference, you’re not being helpful, just argumentative.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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So what about this incident: "a shocking 2016 slide that captured 15 people, completely burying one skier while partially burying several members other members of the group...
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I'm not saying in bounds slides don't happen. I'm saying statistically they are extremely rare. Resorts are VERY conservative with opening up terrain. Of course you can't reduce the risk to zero - often when there is an inbounds slide it's been bombed, cut, and actually plenty of others have already been down it (as in your example).
In 2016 there were 27 people injured over 4 train crashes in UK. It doesn't make me think of train travel as dangerous.
For every in bounds slide there are millions of skier hours without any issue. I'm much more concerned about collisions or tree wells which kill a lot more people.
To compare in bounds USA to off-piste Europe where it may not receive any sort of control (bombing, ski cutting), the same skier compaction effect, or clearly marked as close during high risk conditions is imo naive. As said above people have died in avalanches while skiing just off pistes in Europe. It's night and day difference, which is seen by the fact many of us will happily ride anywhere in bounds in n America without equipment, but wouldn't consider going off piste in europe without it.
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While you can find you own way around off piste without a guide and probably do it safely, hiring a guide or joining a guided group has the major benefit of the guide's knowledge of where the good snow and terrain can be found on that particular day/sun/weather condition. You can spend all day on your own and never find the good stuff. Odds are you'll find a lot of bad stuff. Do yourself a favor and go with a guide either in a group or on your own. You'll be safer and have a better experience all the way around. Worth every penny and you'll learn a lot and get better at handling these types of snow and terrain. The best off piste I've found has been at smaller areas where you are not competing with the hordes for untracked snow. Yes, these places exist in Italy. You do not have the skills or experience to figure this out on your own. What you're looking for does exist but unless you have a lot of local knowledge or get real lucky, you probably won't find it. And you can rent avi gear from the guide or ski school. The gear is not essential until it is needed.
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You know it makes sense.
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Sidestepping the NA vs Europe debate.
Skiing alone in Europe on itineraries or "easy" off piste is not a good idea. If the snow is not ideal you might find yourself alone, without cellular reception in an area that's not visible from a lift.
Fall, hurt something or lose a ski and you're stranded and in real danger (of hypothermia for example) as it might be an hour or two before other skiers (because most people will stay away if conditions aren't good) or patrollers find you (some places they do sweeps only at the end of the day)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Yeah, I'm concluding with this debate that the kind of experience I was interested in is probably not available full-time in Europe, but that's okay. I say 'full-time' because it will vary depending on the weather, avalanche risk, and snow quality. I have a decent amount of experience in skiing and climbing to be able to assess if the conditions look safe, and I can be a lot more cautious when I'm alone. I'll try to look for places close to the piste where I can see the start and end of the 'off-piste line.' If conditions are good, I can even join an off-piste group to explore new places more confidently. If conditions are bad, I'll stick to groomers and practice on stuff I'm bad at.
Keeping all of this in mind, do you have any other recommendations for resorts close to Milan (within a maximum 4-hour public transportation distance) where I can have this kind of experience?
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Poster: A snowHead
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The "big 4" resorts away from the groomers in Western Europe are:
* Liftserved
1. Verbier
2. St Anton
* Book a guide
3. La Grave
4. Chamonix
The second-tier include 20-30 stations, like Val d'Isere, Andermatt, Alagna, La Plagne, and so on.
Europe does not get much snow, so pick wisely.
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