 Poster: A snowHead
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@ElzP, fair point, I missed that about Venice. I'd have thought flight to London (or other major western europe flight hub) then cheap flight to Venice, either Marco Polo or Treviso, would be not that difficult though?
No dedicated transfers from Milan to Dolomites??
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@PeakyB, I agree its perfectly possible but for coming from the US easier to fly into Zürich (or Geneva) and get a train direct to the resort. Not sure how many flights arrive in Venice direct from US and then there is a transfer bus, all perfectly doable but maybe a Swiss train is preferable. With all these things there is a lot of personal preferences, some people prefer "Italy" to "Austria" (though much of the Dolomites is more "Austrian" than "Italian"). Some folk dont like trains and prefer a road transfer others like trains (some of the St Anton trains have the Swiss first class panorama carriages). Given the choice I wouldnt go back to ski in France but lots here love it, there is no right and wrong.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@munich_irish, agreed. You pays your money you takes your choice. A lot of money, in this case.
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Anything but a direct flight is not really practical when the OP only has a week.
One option would be to book a suitable flight and wait till much nearer the time to arrange accommodation. In mid-January (much better than early January) there will be something available and it's less of a gamble on snow cover.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@munich_irish, @PeakyB, agreed - hopefully the various good suggestions will allow the OP to research the areas and decide what works best for them - whatever they choose sounds like it's going to be very different to what they're used to! 
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@pam w, agreed.
Must admit I wouldn't even go from UK to Dolomites to ski for less than 8 days now. Even then it's difficult to tear yourself away.
Any fewer days skiing and I'd go to the nearest place with decent snow and a short transfer in France.
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You are absolutely right. I should've said more about our priorities in skiing and beyond.
The three of us are piste skiers and are totally fine not to wander beyond the pistes. We take single black or blue runs where we ski, now I know that it means red in Europe. For me personally, long groomed blue runs are the best and relaxing. For my husband - same but with single blacks. For my younger one (10) the most fun is to ski up to double blacks with other kids as a group and to practice small and medium jumps. Our teenager prefers snowboarding, rides without us/alone, usually runs the backside, which is a mix of piste/off piste. I would very much prefer him not to be able to go off piste in Europe, especially when the area is not avalanche controlled and he is in a totally new place, or I will come back home with gray hair. (or more gray hair, I should say).
Normally, we ski like crazy since lifts are open, then have a quick lunch, and then ski again until the lifts are closed, then we rest and have a long dinner. It is important for us to enjoy our dinner though, so we always try to find places where we can cook when we stay in Tahoe or Mammoth, because the food there is bad.
And you are right, maybe we should make it as different as possible from what we normally do.  I don't plan to cook on our trip and hope to explore local food. Still, I would postpone a Michelin star restaurant until we are empty nesters or until kids are less conservative in what they eat. Otherwise, it will be a waste of money. I would be perfectly happy if the food is good in a casual restaurant.
An ideal village, as I imagine it, would be with less students and more families, less bars and more pastry shops, nice little Christmassy houses, something absolutely not posh but warm and friendly, if such a place exists. But not dead and empty in the evening. A nice small hotel with a good half board option would also be a good choice to make things easier, and if there would be an option for my younger one to join a group of kids to ski together with a guide, she would be thrilled (unless it's very expensive).
Another thing to note is that we've been in Italy quite a few times and always happy to be back, have been to Switzerland once (but in summer and liked Italy more), and have been in France once (but Paris only, still liked Italy more), but have never been in Austria. Based on that, I have a feeling that Italy or Austria could be a better choice comparing to France or Switzerland: Italy because we know we like it there, and Austria because it would be a new experience. We don't plan to add any sightseeing because, first, we won't have time and hope to be without a car (again, different from we normally do), and second, because we hope to be back to Europe in summer with more time to spare.
It would've been ideal to go for a longer trip than 7-8 days but even a week is too much for the kids to skip school.
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@pam w, even from the UK direct flights to Venice are a bit tricky. Last summer we had to change in Munich on the was out and Frankfurt on the way back from Birmingham.
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| nbt wrote: |
Note also that single / double black diamond equate roughly to red / black in Europe |
I just don't think that is true at least for US areas I am familiar with like around Tahoe. There just aren't double black diamond groomers there while in Europe there will often be a black label attached to the steepest groomers or indeed a groomer with a single steep pitch or a tendency to leave it mogulled etc. It's hard to map the read across as so much is also dependent on surface conditions e.g. a lot of Euro blacks can be grim quite a lot of the time when polished by wind or freeze thaw.
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In theory, we can go a bit later, to come back to the U.S. by 18-19 January the latest.
There are no direct flights from San Francisco to Venice (unless something will change, which is doubtful), and there are not direct flights to Milan. There are direct flights to Zurich (Swiss) and Munich and Frankfurt (Lufthansa). Flights to London are direct and frequent, and we usually do just that when go to Europe - flying to London and then going with a low cost airline - but any connection will add time. Plus if we bring skis and a snowboard with us, the low cost airline will charge us an arm and a leg (while Swiss doesn't charge for skis).
oh my, it's 3:30am. Will come back tomorrow.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@ketya77, are there direct flights to Paris? The big resorts talked about here, like the 3V, are easily accessible from Paris by train. For example, Moutier-Salins is about 4.5hrs by train from Paris. From there it's an easy bus or taxi transfer up to resort (~45mins to Val Thorens). Alternatively, Bourg St-Maurice is about another 0.5hr on the train and gives access to Val d'Isere, Tignes and Les Arcs. Any of those resorts would suit you really well from a skiing perspective and you could maybe combine the trip with a night or so in Paris?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Hmm. I think we're getting somewhere. There are lots of very pretty villages with "Christmassy houses" in Austria but it sounds as though you DON'T want the kind of noisy party scene which is a selling point for some resorts. Kitzbuhel, though I've only been there in summer, is a classy option. There are other quieter options - Alpbach is beautiful, for example. But as a broad generalisation, you can either find a place with guaranteed skiing on the doorstep OR be in a pretty village. What was it about Switzerland which made you prefer Italy? (I prefer Italy too, though I'd be hard put to come up with a very coherent explanation.....).
In France, quite a "villagey" option is La Clusaz, with very easy access from Geneva airport. But I wouldn't book there 10 months in advance - it doesn't have much high altitude skiing.
In your situation, and if you don't want to cook, I'd rent an apartment where we could have breakfast and maybe some simple cheap lunches, with plenty of room to lounge around, and then go out to a variety of different local restaurants for dinner in the evenings. French resorts (and maybe Austrian ones too) also generally have some "traiteurs" where you can buy good ready made meals and will lend you the table-top appliances to cook your own "brasérade". With ready sliced meat. Makes for an easy and convivial meal. Quality wine available everywhere, at prices which make a mockery of the mark up in a half-board hotel.
If the later date is equally easy for you, I'd lock that in now. Be aware that much accommodation in the Alps is on a Sat/Sat (or in Italy sometime Sun/Sun) basis. If you go for mid-week flights your accommodation options will be curtailed.
Your daughter might enjoy ski school with other similar aged kids - you can get lots of advice here, and the teenagers classes often get up to lots of fun things. And not expensive.
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I'm sticking with Kitzbuhel:
Convenient transport (train from Munich)
On the pass you'd probably have anyway so some cost saved
Alpine town Christmassy vibes (it's attractive even if it doesn't snow to base)
Get a half board hotel near the Hahnemkanbahn lift so you can be first out
Austria is good at the half board, quality tends to be decent
Cruisey skiing but some exciting bits.
Warm and friendly, nice places for coffee and cake.
I guess the only downside is it's possibly seen as a bit 'posh' - but I certainly didn't notice any snobby vibe on the mountain! Plus it's not a small village, and as noted it's not the cheapest.
This only my preference of course, I didn't take to the town in St Anton myself - but I wasn't having the best of weeks so probably just unfortunate timing.
If the flights/convenience/time thing wasn't a factor I'd be suggesting Saalbach Hinterglemm... but unless there's a good transfer option from Munich I think it would be a bit of a faff for you. If you can find a way to get there it might tick every other one of your bolxes!
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You know it makes sense.
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@ElzP, Kitzbuhel isn't great for boarders. The flat bits are irritating enough on skis and for boarders they're dreadful.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@sugarmoma666, ah - I didn't know that, didn't notice too many flat bits! Apologies OP, might have led you astray, others can advise on the boarding.
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Poster: A snowHead
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My sister, who had a friend with a house in Kitzbuhel, enjoyed the place. She commented on the beautifully made-up women in lovely outfits including Gucci moonboots who would sit around in a restaurant for hours, with NO intention of messing themselves up actually doing any skiing.
It does sound as though the OP might enjoy a lower-key, more family-oriented place, which should also be cheaper. Our Austrian snowheads might be able to recommend somewhere (not St Anton or Ischgl) to fit the bill. It's years since I skied in Alpbach and the ski area is now much enlarged (we had no complaints about it at the time, though the hotel was rubbish) but it's a beautiful village and close to Innsbruck, always good for a visit.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| ElzP wrote: |
| @sugarmoma666, ah - I didn't know that, didn't notice too many flat bits! Apologies OP, might have led you astray, others can advise on the boarding. |
I've ventured over there twice from the SkiWelt with my boarder other half. I don't think I'd risk his wrath a 3rd time.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@ketya77, I am going to suggest, based on that additional helpful information, that you keep Zermatt in the mix. As you say, the pass is covered anyway, it does meet all of the other criteria you mention, the only thing I’m not sure about is what sort of accommodation budget you have in mind. But although Zermatt does high end very well, there are equally a number of smaller, family run hotels or apartments if that’s your preference. Food is excellent, again although there are plenty of high end places, there is plenty of choice at the burgers/pizza/Italian level too.
Also, if you like Italy, Zermatt allows you to ski in Switzerland AND Italy, with its link to Cervinia.
Flying into Zurich would allow you to connect by train to Zermatt, and also Austria , as has already been explained.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| ketya77 wrote: |
Just wanted to add:
If to consider places included in the Ikon pass (Zermatt, Chamonix, Kitzbuhel, Dolomiti, and Grandvalira) I wonder which meet more of our criteria than the others. If none of them really meet them, we can skip the pass for the next season.
Also, we will be limited by spending no more than a week, maybe 8 days on the trip, so the longer it'll take for us to get to the destination, with connected flights, trains, buses, the less we'll have to ski. |
Are you sure about Grandvalkira still being including on Epic pas?. As an Andorran season pass holder, we only have skiing day access to Deer Valley & Steamboat.
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| ketya77 wrote: |
In theory, we can go a bit later, to come back to the U.S. by 18-19 January the latest.
There are no direct flights from San Francisco to Venice (unless something will change, which is doubtful), and there are not direct flights to Milan. There are direct flights to Zurich (Swiss) and Munich and Frankfurt (Lufthansa). Flights to London are direct and frequent, and we usually do just that when go to Europe - flying to London and then going with a low cost airline - but any connection will add time. Plus if we bring skis and a snowboard with us, the low cost airline will charge us an arm and a leg (while Swiss doesn't charge for skis).
oh my, it's 3:30am. Will come back tomorrow. |
I happen to be looking for a trip for some American friends who want to come over next year, so it gave me a chance to brush up on some friction-free travelling knowledge.
Places like 3-Valleys, Alp d'Huez, Les Arcs and Andorra all have good transfers from an airport (Geneve, Grenoble/Nice/Chamberly, Nice, Barcelona/Toulouse). I cannot speak for Austria.
Having said that, I just had the horrendous experience that my oversize bag (the one with snow sliding gear in it) got lost twice on the last itinerary. (Anywhere where there was a American Airlines + British Airways link). So the less airline heterogeneous connenctions you have, the better.
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@ketya77, From what you have said the Dolomites would be ideal (because of the "Italian" bit) but access is not so easy from the US, via Munich it is a fair way by road and Venice involves flight changes (no point is using up precious time with tedious travelling). In many ways Lech would be also ideal but it is probably too "posh" for your needs. St Anton is probably good from a skiing perspective though not so much straight forward piste skiing, the village is not really picture postcard perhaps a bit too "loud" for you. Kitzbühel could be a good choice, you would need to book a transfer from Munich (its about 1.5 hours assuming no traffic hold ups). It is a town rather than a village but the centre is quite attractive. Plenty of skiing variety even for your oldest. It does tend to attract what the German's call "schicki michi" folk roughly noveau riche in English (American??) so there are places serving sparkling wine & canapes as apres rather than beer (those places too). You might need to be careful with the location of the accommodation as it might be a little way away from the lifts (there is more than one area the main one starts at the Hahnenkamm lift). It might be cheaper in one of the satellite villages such as Jochberg or Kirchberg. There are lots of other places nearby people will have their own favourites (I am currently on a train to St Anton  but Kitzbühel probably ticks most of your boxes.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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US resident here who goes to Europe almost every year for a ski trip....
We go for the experience and lower cost given we have the time to do it.
I would say that trying to mimic the US ski preferences in a European
ski resort should probably not be the priority. Snow is becoming a more
iffy proposition in Europe; we had nothing but groomed slopes in LTV at
end of January. On the other hand, it was bluebird skies and magnificent
vistas, and we could lunch on the sundeck every day.
I like to say that skiing in Europe is "let's find a place to go for lunch, ski
there, have a nice lunch, and ski home, stopping for a drink along the way".
A couple of ski observations:
- trail maps are harder to read and you should anticipate getting a bit lost the
first day or two
- European lift lines seem like unmanaged chaos at first, but things usually
sort themselves out by the time you get to the "starting gate".
Lech, which is part of St Anton complex, might be a more charming village to consider
basing in, and there are B&B's that are reasonably priced (although Lech as a
whole is $$$). Some are ski-in/ski-out.
Les Coches, which is part of Paradiski, a small, reasonably priced option, also a lot
of ski-in/ski-out. The thing about large European resorts, esp France and maybe
Italy (at least Dolomites), is that there are multiple villages you can stay in, and
each has pros and cons wrt access, cost, etc.
thetrainline.com is a great resource for researching train options and booking train tickets.
Finally, I see these books that might be helpful: https://www.skibooks.uk/page/buy-the-books
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| Quote: |
"let's find a place to go for lunch, ski
there, have a nice lunch, and ski home, stopping for a drink along the way".
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Last month our daughter and her fiance came over from Canada to ski with us in Italy (the Dolomites).
We booked the holiday via a UK tour operator, with flights from Scotland for my wife and I, and flights from Heathrow for them. They arrived in London from Vancouver on the Friday night, spent a night at an airport hotel and got on the TO holiday on the Saturday morning. We all flew via Innsbruck and met up at the hotel in resort on Saturday evening. They did the similar on the return, arrived in London the following Saturday, night in airport hotel again and flew home Sunday.
I've no idea how this compares pricewise to diy, but ski carriage via the UK TO is about £80pp return and transfers to resort are included. It worked very well for us and her Canadian fiance was totally blown away by what the Dolomites had to offer.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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We're hoping to do the almost exact opposite - may or may not be next year...
It depends on the country, for the most you can be in France, Switzerland, Italy or Austria. There are a couple of resorts which cross over the various borders.. La Rosiere for instance.
We've tended to stick to French resorts, but the Italian ones do have a certain charm.
In terms of travel, if you speak to a travel agent, they should be able to arrange all the transfers for you - these are usually the biggest pain point.
Chalet, Hotel or Apartment? Ski In, Ski Out?
Paradiski and 3V have more than enough skiing and variation for anyone.
I would check this website, which has brilliant, up-to-date information about the resorts and ski areas. https://www.wheretoskiandsnowboard.com
Ideally, to avoid disappointment you need a resort which has height. Enough stuff about 2,000 metres.
Serre Chevalier has a charm to it - some members are residents there.
La Rosiere has a decent amount of skiing and you can get over to La Thuile, for some italian skiing.
Avoriaz - I think I'm right in saying you can get over to the Swiss side...
Try and avoid February school holidays and Easter school holidays.
Enjoy the local cuisine, but take some home comforts if you want them - i.e. we usually take tea bags.
Avoid Turin airport if possible - this always seems to cause issues. Although we haven't been for about a decade or possibly 2, so i might have changed...
Going Geneva to Europe can be a bit of a PITA due to Swiss Francs vs Euros, although most places should be cards these days.
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| T Bar wrote: |
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
Also depends what you mean by blacks. In Europe these are all groomers
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Unless things have changed the ski routes in St Anton and also places like Verbier are not groomers and are basically like black runs and often were labelled as such 40 odd years ago. |
Yes for completeness there are some blacks which approach the Western NA concept being ski routes and the like or groomed once for a base and then left to mogul up. However when people here talk about skiing (Euro) blacks they generally mean the steepest groomers. I invariably find ski routes disappointing because unless you catch them on fresh day they are effectively just skier packed slopes.
It's a difficult trade off to make. Skiing in Europe can be awesome and with a little knowledge and skill offer much wider opportunities than a typical N American resort. But in this epic winter over there I'd find it difficult to say that shooting cold at January somewhere will be the equal of ski experiences they'll have had this season. That's when you need to balance the Europe column with more culture and food and perhaps mark down the US with traffic and storm closures etc.
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You know it makes sense.
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@ketya77, if you aren't already spinning I have a few thoughts from another Yank's perspective. Yes, go to the Alps. It is fun and different. The skiing part might-might- be slightly below what you're used to, but the remainder of the experience will be above, and overall totally worth it. As for where, pick your destination without regard for Ikon or Epic passes. Lift tix are comparatively cheap in Europe, and many of the Ikon/Epic European destinations require you to stay in certain lodgings...better to make your own choice there. Any of the four alpine countries would be fine; my own preferences lean toward AUT and ITA which I've found slightly more affordable and friendlier. You'll see a ton of half-board (big bkfst and dinners) hotels and they're a great way to go...no guesswork, just show up. For me, this is a central part of the Euroski experience. Just remember the "two meals not three rule": in Europe (or anywhere the food is really good), you just can't cram that much food down in a day. So if you do the half-board thing, it pairs well with the the American quick, small lunch-as-fuel approach. Munich has been my portal of choice and I've found the rental cars there are surprisingly affordable. BTW I'm walking all this talk next week; hope the weather sorts itself out quickly. If you like a real town with your ski area, consider Kitzbuhel. Want to move around from place to place a bit, in a good way? Dolomites. (And both of those are on Ikon, and do NOT require staying in specific lodgings). Sleeper pick: Serfaus-Fiss-Ladis. The Arlberg would also be a good choice; I would not send just anybody there as I find it crowded at St Anton, but since you ski at Mammoth you know about about that!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@ketya77,
Fly to Geneva, take train from airport to Zermatt.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| ketya77 wrote: |
| Plus if we bring skis and a snowboard with us, the low cost airline will charge us an arm and a leg (while Swiss doesn't charge for skis). |
Easyjet charge £37 one way for a double ski bag. Hardly double limb losing!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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“ If the flights/convenience/time thing wasn't a factor I'd be suggesting Saalbach Hinterglemm... but unless there's a good transfer option from Munich I think it would be a bit of a faff for you. If you can find a way to get there it might tick every other one of your bolxes!”
There is a good, regular train service from Munich to Zell am See, from where it’s 10 miles - so the local bus (30 mins), or a taxi (20 mins) to Saalbach. Not a problem. For public transport options see www.oebb.at or www.bahn.de
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
However when people here talk about skiing (Euro) blacks they generally mean the steepest groomers.
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No, in france the blacks are usually not groomed.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| johnE wrote: |
| Quote: |
However when people here talk about skiing (Euro) blacks they generally mean the steepest groomers.
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No, in france the blacks are usually not groomed. |
ime some are, some aren't.
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| tatmanstours wrote: |
“ If the flights/convenience/time thing wasn't a factor I'd be suggesting Saalbach Hinterglemm... but unless there's a good transfer option from Munich I think it would be a bit of a faff for you. If you can find a way to get there it might tick every other one of your bolxes!”
There is a good, regular train service from Munich to Zell am See, from where it’s 10 miles - so the local bus (30 mins), or a taxi (20 mins) to Saalbach. Not a problem. For public transport options see www.oebb.at or www.bahn.de |
Munich is easy to reach, we have non-stop flights there by Lufthansa. The resort looks family friendly and nice. The only thing that may be considered negative is that they have more blue runs than red and black combined, and none of us need blue runs.
I wonder what's with snow coverage their in the beginning of January...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Lufthansa charges ($150 each way) for ski transport from/to USA ... just saying ...
Swiss does not, skis fly free.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| T Bar wrote: |
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
Also depends what you mean by blacks. In Europe these are all groomers
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Unless things have changed the ski routes in St Anton and also places like Verbier are not groomers and are basically like black runs and often were labelled as such 40 odd years ago. |
Yes for completeness there are some blacks which approach the Western NA concept being ski routes and the like or groomed once for a base and then left to mogul up. However when people here talk about skiing (Euro) blacks they generally mean the steepest groomers. I invariably find ski routes disappointing because unless you catch them on fresh day they are effectively just skier packed slopes.
It's a difficult trade off to make. Skiing in Europe can be awesome and with a little knowledge and skill offer much wider opportunities than a typical N American resort. But in this epic winter over there I'd find it difficult to say that shooting cold at January somewhere will be the equal of ski experiences they'll have had this season. That's when you need to balance the Europe column with more culture and food and perhaps mark down the US with traffic and storm closures etc. |
The snow coverage we have this year is unreal. We have yet just another snow storm this week. Here are a few recent photos from Tahoe: https://sfstandard.com/weather/9-surreal-photos-tahoe-california-snow-levels/ Saying that, this is not something we enjoy every year, quite the opposite. Recent years it was dry and the resorts were struggling..
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FAQ
