 Poster: A snowHead
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R18 225 to fit vw golf, would love to get in on this deal you have seen
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| valais2 wrote: |
@luigi,
sorry must come back
1 running cost is zero. that's the key point. In ten years you buy 2 sets of tyres. Having two sets of tyres winters and summers, in ten years you buy 2 sets of tyres. Extra cost = zero.
2 I am making a different point. Only additional cost is 50 euros for a set of steel rims. Less than a meal for four. If you need chains, you need chains, what has climate change got to do with it.
3 you can know all you want, but you won't get up from our place to the village on summers when there's an inch of fresh on the road. And that's a fact.
4 I am making a different point. You can change them for no cost. Jack up the car, change wheel.
5 good.
AND ... sorry you are COMPLETELY right...no need to have winters at all. I am totally wrong. I am sure that the elderly Merc estate driver who was driving carefully up our hill, making his way on fresh with winters was perfectly happy with the urban back bottom who came round the curve on summers, slid straight over onto the other carriageway and crashed full force into the front of his car. Yep....perfect.
https://www.dreamstime.com/internet-troll-drooling-evil-internet-troll-depiction-isolated-white-background-image128271305 |
You seem to be taking this very personally, I'm not saying you shouldn't invest in winter tyres given your circumstances or even that the average French Jean-Pierre shouldn't, just explaining the rationale why most not-so-well-off one-week-a-year skiers from temperate regions of France risk it on summer tyres with chains on board...and probably get away with it 99.99% of the time without incident.
But nice of you to post a picture of yourself, I was wondering what you looked like 
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@luigi, ...I'm not taking it personally, I am taking it seriously.
I understand perfectly WHY people don't bother, that's not hard to understand.
I think a number of people here are saying that it's wrong.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| stuarth wrote: |
| Alastair Pink wrote: |
| It would be nice if UK car dealers gave the option of the new cars they sell being fitted with all season tyres. |
Do you mean all-weather? (I'll duck, as may be kicking off a whole other flame war there!  )
You can get some Subaru's here with all weather tires |
Blame tire marketing departments for their lingo.
If you aren't driving in snow on a regular basis, but maybe that once a year ski trip, then buy a set of chains. And here's a pro trip, actually do a dry run and practice putting them on in your driveway. Living and growing up and learning to drive in Alaska and the PNW, it's 2nd nature to know how to do this. I learned when I was 16. And it never fails that someone who thinks that their A/S 3PMSF rated tires that are 3 years old with 45,000km on them is going to get up the mountain pass with hard compact snow and ice on the road. They end up in the ditch, the back of someone's bumper or on the side of the road with their road hazards on. Then there are the muppets who stop in the middle of the road because they can't go forward or get to the shoulder as their tires are spinning and try to put on their chains in the middle of the lane! Yes, I see this every single year. I spend every weekend driving to the mountains to go skiing like have for the past 4 decades of winter driving. I have seen this in Idaho, Washington, Colorado, Oregon. I have ceased to be amazed by the ignorance displayed by part time winter drivers. Even more so by those that should know better with their A/S 3PMSF equipped AWD vehicles that think they can drive the speed limit on hard compact snow and icy roads.
All weathers are a step up in compounding from All Seasons, which really are more like 3 season tires.
So what, specifically, does the 3PMSF symbol mean?
| Quote: |
| In 1999, The U.S. Tire Manufacturers Association (USTMA) and the Rubber Association of Canada (RAC) agreed on a performance-based standard to identify passenger and light truck tires that attain a traction index equal to, or greater than 110 (compared to a reference tire which is rated 100) during the specified American Society for Testing and Materials traction tests on packed snow. The standard is intended to help ensure drivers can easily identify tires that provide a higher level of snow traction, and tires meeting that standard are branded with the three-peak mountain snowflake (3PMSF) symbol. |
All this means is that the tire is approximately 10% better handling in light snow than a non 3PMSF. That's not so great. And as the tread wears, the compound loses some of that tacky pliability in colder temps.
Food for thought.
https://toptirereview.com/michelin-x-ice-snow-vs-michelin-cross-climate-2/
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In these parts (not France) winter tyres are mandatory for 6 months of the year for locally registered vehicles. 4 winter tyres cost me €330 (I could’ve had just fronts fitted but chose not to), storage is nothing as I keep them at the back of my parking space covered by an old curtain and it costs €35 to get them swapped.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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If you're buying a new car you tell the dealer what tyres you want on it 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Toadman wrote: |
| stuarth wrote: |
| Alastair Pink wrote: |
| It would be nice if UK car dealers gave the option of the new cars they sell being fitted with all season tyres. |
Do you mean all-weather? (I'll duck, as may be kicking off a whole other flame war there! )
You can get some Subaru's here with all weather tires |
Blame tire marketing departments for their lingo.
If you aren't driving in snow on a regular basis, but maybe that once a year ski trip, then buy a set of chains. And here's a pro trip, actually do a dry run and practice putting them on in your driveway. Living and growing up and learning to drive in Alaska and the PNW, it's 2nd nature to know how to do this. I learned when I was 16. And it never fails that someone who thinks that their A/S 3PMSF rated tires that are 3 years old with 45,000km on them is going to get up the mountain pass with hard compact snow and ice on the road. They end up in the ditch, the back of someone's bumper or on the side of the road with their road hazards on. Then there are the muppets who stop in the middle of the road because they can't go forward or get to the shoulder as their tires are spinning and try to put on their chains in the middle of the lane! Yes, I see this every single year. I spend every weekend driving to the mountains to go skiing like have for the past 4 decades of winter driving. I have seen this in Idaho, Washington, Colorado, Oregon. I have ceased to be amazed by the ignorance displayed by part time winter drivers. Even more so by those that should know better with their A/S 3PMSF equipped AWD vehicles that think they can drive the speed limit on hard compact snow and icy roads.
All weathers are a step up in compounding from All Seasons, which really are more like 3 season tires.
So what, specifically, does the 3PMSF symbol mean?
| Quote: |
| In 1999, The U.S. Tire Manufacturers Association (USTMA) and the Rubber Association of Canada (RAC) agreed on a performance-based standard to identify passenger and light truck tires that attain a traction index equal to, or greater than 110 (compared to a reference tire which is rated 100) during the specified American Society for Testing and Materials traction tests on packed snow. The standard is intended to help ensure drivers can easily identify tires that provide a higher level of snow traction, and tires meeting that standard are branded with the three-peak mountain snowflake (3PMSF) symbol. |
All this means is that the tire is approximately 10% better handling in light snow than a non 3PMSF. That's not so great. And as the tread wears, the compound loses some of that tacky pliability in colder temps.
Food for thought.
https://toptirereview.com/michelin-x-ice-snow-vs-michelin-cross-climate-2/ |
Well put, its a fairly low bar to reach 3PMSF (some of course will exceed by more, but it cannot show that) have you also seen the gradient that the key test is performed on ? It's written in the test regime. All measured against a very ordinary control tyre last time I read it.
There's difference in method of those two tyres in link too, one the traditional and making use of very soft compounds/cuts etc (the ice X example) and the other almost pure geometry to giive "conflict" within vehicle dynamic to approach traction etc in different way. They are very different in approach with the CC type looking more of a fit to general north Europe than the conditions you experience in description. Going up into Scandinavia it moves more to studs in severe season as routine.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Are there insurance implications in France if using summer tyres in winter conditions now? Do the insurance pay out? Can you be privately sued / be personally liable for injury to others?
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| Quote: |
Are there insurance implications in France if using summer tyres in winter conditions now? Do the insurance pay out? Can you be privately sued / be personally liable for injury to others?
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It is not illegal to use summer tyres in winter conditions so I imagine that the liability would depend on a whole lot of other factors, as with any RTA. In the past when there have been major problems on the roads leading to French resorts there has been some criticism of the police not requiring that vehicles put on chains before heading up the hill. That is not unusual and I have been required to put on chains despite having good winter tyres (though my claims to that effect have been pooh-poohed on Snowheads by some of the more fundamentalist believers who insist that you will NEVER need chains if you have winter tyres).
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You know it makes sense.
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| valais2 wrote: |
I understand perfectly WHY people don't bother |
Well, that's all I've been talking about on this thread, if you read it carefully
So now we agree on why one-week-a-year skiers from temperate regions of France don't bother fitting winter tyres, perhaps you can give your caps lock button a rest?! 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Is it just me that just leaves the Winter tires on all year? With the amount of rain we have in the UK, the Winters give much more confidence in the wet.
They've done about 12,000 miles, and are still well above the legal limits.
On a VW Transporter
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Gilly76 Winters all year: I've also done this on our little Peugeot 206 which we use for local journeys and trips to the tip. As you say, winters are much more reassuring in very wet weather and standing water, any time of the year. The 206 has had summers-all-year, winters-all-year and winters-in-winter/summers-in-summer. It now has Michelin CrossClimates™ which I'd say is a good compromise. The main concern with winters in summer is that they usually - and counterintuitively - have extended stopping distances compared to all-seasons or summers. They would also tend to wear disproportionately if you take them on lots of long motorway trips. Personally, I never found the extended stopping distance to be a problem in summer, but perhaps I was just fortunate, and I suspect that it would be more evident in an SUV or performance model. But if I had to choose between winters-all-year vs summers-all-year for the 206, I'd go for the winters, based on my experience with both.
My independent supplier for wheels and tyres does commercial and HGV vehicles as well and they leave winters on their vans year-round, as they often have to negotiate building sites and muddy, rough conditions to do on-site replacements. They've been very happy with the strategy. But then, their vans only operate relatively locally and tyres are one thing they can replace cheaply.
One thing to bear in mind re winters is that their recommended replacement tread depth is 4mm, compared to 2-3mm for a mainstream, non-performance summer tyre i.e. you'd probably replace them a bit sooner. This relates to their snow performance - the compounds will still be faster to warm up in colder conditions, just that you'll lose the snow traction somewhat as it wears below the 4mm point.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 24-01-23 12:12; edited 10 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Gilly76 wrote: |
Is it just me that just leaves the Winter tires on all year? With the amount of rain we have in the UK, the Winters give much more confidence in the wet.
They've done about 12,000 miles, and are still well above the legal limits.
On a VW Transporter |
A set of summers might last 40k miles if you rotate front to rear, once the fronts are down to about 3-4mm. You can look for ones that have a 'A' rating for wet weather if you live in Soggy Staffs. 
The winters will wear out a lot quicker, esp if you leave them on with 25-35C summer temps and stopping distances can be longer in warm temps compared to summer tyres.
Winters with worn treads don't perform in snow nearly as well as new ones, so you may lose a lot of the advantage when you really need it.
Your fuel consumption will be higher.
But if it works for you, why not, I guess!?!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| luigi wrote: |
| Gilly76 wrote: |
Is it just me that just leaves the Winter tires on all year? With the amount of rain we have in the UK, the Winters give much more confidence in the wet.
They've done about 12,000 miles, and are still well above the legal limits.
On a VW Transporter |
A set of summers might last 40k miles if you rotate front to rear, once the fronts are down to about 3-4mm. You can look for ones that have a 'A' rating for wet weather if you live in Soggy Staffs.
The winters will wear out a lot quicker, esp if you leave them on with 25-35C summer temps and stopping distances can be longer in warm temps compared to summer tyres.
Winters with worn treads don't perform in snow nearly as well as new ones, so you may lose a lot of the advantage when you really need it.
Your fuel consumption will be higher.
But if it works for you, why not, I guess!?! |
You might get 40k miles if you only ever drive on the motorway where the wheels are turning but not doing much else, but if you are doing a lot of driving around town, or on twisty country roads all the accelerating, braking and cornering takes it's toll quickly, more like 20k miles is the limit. And once tyres get down to 3mm tread they are only fit for the bin, not for putting on the other axle. The legal limit in the uk might only be 1.6mm but the performance is seriously compromised by the time you get to that amount of tread.
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I had to change all my tyres in October, so went for Michelin cross climate 2. Worked out slightly more expensive than equivalent summer tyres, but not much. As it happens I didn't drive over in Jan after all, but I've been mighty glad to have them on these last few weeks. There's quite a nasty hill out of my village, and it got up there no problem, whilst all the other cars I saw had to give up.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I am baffled as to why good all-season tyres , fully certified as winters are not normal fitment nowadays. For years I swapped summers and winters, then about seven years ago moved to properly certified all-seasons. Virtually no price difference, they work all year round - why are people still allowed to sell tyres that don't work in the winter?
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| RobinS wrote: |
| I am baffled as to why good all-season tyres , fully certified as winters are not normal fitment nowadays. For years I swapped summers and winters, then about seven years ago moved to properly certified all-seasons. Virtually no price difference, they work all year round - why are people still allowed to sell tyres that don't work in the winter? |
Because some people live in areas that don't see much snow. Some people are driving high performance vehicles and want a UHP (Ultra High Performance) summer tire. I would not want an A/S tire on my Porsche for example. OE auto mfgs. have different requirements for the tires they are putting on vehicles with different performance characteristics. And OE tires often have different compounding for better rolling resistance as well, as opposed to aftermarket tires.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| luigi wrote: |
| JohnS4 wrote: |
| luigi wrote: |
| JohnS4 wrote: |
You might get 40k miles if you only ever drive on the motorway where the wheels are turning but not doing much else, but if you are doing a lot of driving around town, or on twisty country roads all the accelerating, braking and cornering takes it's toll quickly, more like 20k miles is the limit. And once tyres get down to 3mm tread they are only fit for the bin, not for putting on the other axle. The legal limit in the uk might only be 1.6mm but the performance is seriously compromised by the time you get to that amount of tread. |
Yes, if you're an Audi S4 driver your tyres will wear out quicker, all that trying to keep up with BMW M3s on twisty country roads takes its toll!
You will also have to junk your rubber when it's half worn too, because you need every advantage when you can't catch the kidney-grilled b**tards!  |
Ok I confess, guilty as charged  |
Gotcha! |
Though to the original point in the thread, my car has 4wd and winter tyres, so in the snowy mountains a RWD M3 on summer tyres will be far behind me !
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@JohnS4, I quite like the quaintness of the BMW we saw with chains on the front wheels. Summer tyres, chains on the front only, RWD. Quite exciting handling in the mountains. I used to enjoy the waltzers at the local fair. But not on the switchbacks in the Alps. Oh look, we can see where we have just come from….
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You know it makes sense.
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| valais2 wrote: |
| @JohnS4, I quite like the quaintness of the BMW we saw with chains on the front wheels. Summer tyres, chains on the front only, RWD. Quite exciting handling in the mountains. I used to enjoy the waltzers at the local fair. But not on the switchbacks in the Alps. Oh look, we can see where we have just come from…. |
Well they definitely wont be getting any understeer on that, not that understeer is usually a problem on powerful RWD cars anyway, ending up going sideways or backwards is the bigger problem as you say, like being on the waltzers I wonder if they were thinking these chains we bought don't work very well.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Well, these observations underline the problem of summers with chains, because the un-driven (or less-driven in the case of AWD) wheels are still summers on snow, which is going to cause steering problems on a RWD (in the sense of not being able to steer - something of a hindrance on Alpine hairpins) and pirouetting at corners on a FWD vehicle. I suppose that you could say that chains on summers gives the FWD owner a calmer driving experience: on a RWD car they can see the drop as they carry straight on at a hairpin, while in a FWD car they swap ends and don't get so alarmed as they glide over the precipice.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 25-01-23 11:24; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I suspect that part of the problems you see with RWD even with chains on the driving wheels is the driver going too fast.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| LaForet wrote: |
| Well, these observations underline the problem of summers with chains, because the un-driven (or less-driven in the case of AWD) wheels are still summers on snow, which is going to cause steering problems on a RWD (in the sense of not being able to steer - something of a hindrance on Alpine hairpins) and pirouetting at corners on a FWD vehicle. I suppose that you could say that chains on summers gives the FWD owner a calmer driving experience: on a RWD car they can see the drop as they carry straight on at a hairpin, while in a FWD car they swap ends and don't get so alarmed as they glide over the precipice. |
yes, a very valid point. Similarly for braking. If you only have chains on 2 wheels you are only effectively braking on those two wheels, the other two are free to slide. With winter tyres you are using all 4 wheels to brake (even on a 2WD car). A lot safer when going downhill.
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| halfhand wrote: |
| I suspect that part of the problems you see with RWD even with chains on the driving wheels is the driver going too fast. |
Really with arrival at any point with more pace/kinetc mass than you have grip is ultimately problematic!!
That's irrespective of conditions prevailing at that point, just that in dry/warm conditions most are used to the natural pace and signals that we ordinarily operate within. Given a significant reduction in grip those signals are substantially truncated, which if we don't respond to, can very quickly overwhelm physics and driver ability to make serious problems and or collateral impacts 
Falling snow, gradient in decent/severity, potential kinetic mass all contrive to make that observation theatre infinitesimally small, this aspect is usually that which takes over just prior to the big bang.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Indeed RWD with chains on rear and none in front (summers) is a different and equally exciting but straight-line-absence-of-control experience. Agreed that using just one set on rwd at front can be valid for some situations.
In the 80s I had huge fun in my 1300 VW beetle on very narrow cross ply tyres - with all that weight at the back I could get up virgin snow hills with the tyres cutting nicely into the snow, leaving those with low profile tyres in various ditches at the side of the road.
But jump to 2023 and I have winters on my Awd yeti - and jolly secure it is too. Our Touran is on summers, and with heavy frost it was fun in the back fen road past the wood - I decided to heavy foot the brakes and bang bang bang went the abs as I slid about 15 metres without stopping….
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Would the sensible solution then (apart from not trying to drive RWD on snow) be to have chains on all 4 wheels?
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North America guidance:
‘….Assuming most drivers have never used snow chains, BMW released a short educational (and promotional) video giving you an A-to-Z guidance of how to install snow chains. Before getting into the actual installation, the automaker reminds you that it’s important “to only fit the snow chains onto the wheels of your vehicle's main drive axle….’
Stand back and watch the application of POWERRrrrrrrrrr whilst the steering wheels get clogged with wet snow…vrroooooooom
I have seen sensible BMW owners with chains on rear only, but they have been tiptoeing carefully and wisely
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If mr Frenchman has bought an old car with summer tyres on but wants all season he could very easily sell the summers on ebay for decent money.
As has been mentioned if having even a small bump far outweighs the cost of a set of tyres, and while chains are great in proper snow it's the days when there is mixed conditions that tyres make the difference such as snow where the sun doesnt get but none on other bits, of course a drivers right foot is very important especially going downhill, keep off the accelerator and brake
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Valais2 Yes, I have a 330 BHP RWD BMW small convertible and I've been fine on my winters in snow going up and down mountain hairpins. But yes, you do have to avoid getting complacent once the initial carefulness wears off. I imagine this is why most of the fatal/serious accidents I've read about are down to locals who presumably have just got a bit careless.
@halfhand I think the trouble is that while chains work on the driven wheels because they're powered, what tends to happen on un-driven wheels is that they just stall. But I've never tried it, for obvious reasons. Even on the BMW xDrive AWD cars, the recommendation is to just fit chains to the rear wheels, which is where most f the power goes and which are powered continuously.
The last time I drove in difficult snow conditions the problem I faced was that the car was actually driving very well. After a few kilometres and 4-5 hairpins, I was getting pretty confident. But I'd no real idea of what the limits were. Obviously, I still kept driving carefully but I only had another 20 minutes before I reached my destination. I can image that if you were at it for more than half an hour or so, it'd be very easy just to get too confident and just a bit too fast. I've done wet-weather driver training courses at Goodwood and they've been great at showing me the limits of a RWD performance car, but I've done nothing similar in snow.
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| halfhand wrote: |
| Would the sensible solution then (apart from not trying to drive RWD on snow) be to have chains on all 4 wheels? |
I was speaking in general terms for all vehicle, apologies as didn't make that clear.
A rear wheel drive chassis though is one that's possibly the hardest to easily adapt with additional devices though, primarily because to an less experienced driver, being able to turn the steering wheels that also have traction and chains if needed (fwd) simply makes it easier to progress with careful approach. That compares front to rear drive types.
Adding chains to rear wheel dtive increases the traction on that axle but also has the unwanted effect of increasing the front axle understeer in those slippery surface conditions (that's the case in any rear driven chassis dynamic) to then give the driver an imbalance they may not have experienced previously.
As noted already this usually requires more consideration for that type than simply adding chains to a front wheel dtive type car. All the tyre performance in the rear drive scenario are more critical in application and certainly not generally typical of front or 4 driven wheel chassis.
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FAQ
that can make sense in some circumstances. The steering wheels not being driven lack the ability to apply traction in the direction desired by the the driver, this is not the case in front or 4 wheel driven chassis. It may help the driver in circumstances that they're ill prepared for.
