Paying for Piste Maps

A snowHead

Many years ago I recall you could buy laminated piste maps but I don't think I've seen them for decades.

Does anyone else keep their old piste maps. I do and love looking at the old ones every now and then, usually to spot the lifts and pistes that have been removed.

As to having the maps on my phone. I find this OK for hiking but not for skiing where the effort of getting out of the sun removing gloves, extracting phone, etc etc just not worth it. And that assumes I have a mobile phone with me anyway. Not everyone uses them.

A snowHead

It's a pain in the backside using an app when visiting a resort for the first time. Even ignoring the obvious issues of no signal, flat battery etc, faffage of finding the map on your phone (with gloves off as touch gloves rarely work and no face recognition with goggles on) - I want to see the whole area laid out and in context and not a tiny portion of it. Makes it a lot easier to work out how the heck to get back to your hotel when the sun is getting low and time is running out!

As a bonus, a fairly critical lift for getting back to Flaine was actually MISSING from the Grand Massif interactive map, we had no clue it existed, and ended up taking a very long way round. It was on the paper map (that NickyJ showed us - couldn't find one to buy ourselves!) so the app was hardly reliable.

Definitely not the cost I object to, just the massive inconvenience. As mentioned, we never found a place that sold them so we ended up relying on the occasional big board near lifts. The only place I saw a physical non-huge piste map all week aside from Nicky's was quite literally on a pair of knickers in a souvenir shop Confused

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

As has been mentioned already, a 'plasticised' map would be a great idea. I'd certainly fork out for one, preferring it to a paper one every time.

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The resorts will have a good measure in how many people are actually picking them up from the counter and it is likely been on the decline and creates waste. There is probably also a decline in advertising revenue from these as local businesses recover from covid. I think it’s fine going without where there are big maps by lifts and good directional signage like PDS.

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@johnE, we wallpapered a bit of the living room in old piste maps from different resorts.

Charging for them seems alien.

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After all it is free

I remember Vail and Aspen having piste maps in gondolas and on the pull down bars on chair lifts. Not that you'd need one as there would be people on the side of a piste offering you.a free coffee and biscuit or some sunscreen if it was sunny, and you could just ask ... If that wasn't Good enough for you , you could always be greeted by a liftie first thing in a resort you hadn't been to , by your First name and with reccomendations and directions .. Who needs a piste map ! I do however have a plastic/laminated piste map for the 3v they sold which opens up 3d(? :.if thats the right term )

I find it impossible to do anything on a phone whilst wearing contact lenses, so an app is out of the question.

The apps are seldom up to date. A few years ago, I downloaded maps, marked some routes and laminated copies to take with me. Totally pointless as it was missing some lifts and quite a few actual runs.

Sometimes it's worth picking up a copy of just a local area when you visit, as it is often on a larger scale. (Alpe di Siusi is a classic example. It's far too small on the edge of the Sella Ronda map). Cortina has much the same issue.

I like to have a hard copy in the hotel to study on arrival, just to look for new areas to explore, and any new lifts for alternative routes, and carry one in my pocket for use during the day (even these are difficult to read with contacts - I need to use opposite strength glasses).

I don't mind paying a small token charge for them, but if they print a much smaller number as a consequence, then they might not be as available as they once were.

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I have a couple of piste maps on a goggle lens cleaner cloth. Ok, so they are probably out of date by now, but a great idea.

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@Hells Bells, I have also seen them sold decorating boxer shorts. Imagine consulting that at a piste junction!

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I’d have no problem with it if it became like a carrier bag charge. Maybe a free map when you buy your lift pass, then a minimal charge for any one after that. Save the world, one paper piste map at a time…

I really wish the paper maps were 'proper' maps: to scale, with contours and a vertical plan view. The perspective maps are hopeless if the slopes are oriented away from the viewpoint where they foreshorten everything to the point that it's misleading. I did have a go at doing a proper map of the 4 Vallées but couldn't be bothered to add the contours - too much like hard work, but at least it was true to scale and orientation. I suspect that's why online maps are more popular, as many can be read like an OS map. Anyway, this is how it looked:

You obviously couldn't use it in this form to ski with as there's not enough detail and it's not large enough. But if you expanded it to A3 size and added contours, and perhaps had the core Zone 1 in more detail on the other side, it might work as a reliable guide when skiing. This is also implicitly a capable intermediates map - it just draws the pistes without indicating whether they're blue, green, red or black. To do that would possibly dilute the clarity, and to use piste clasification colours might be a problem for the one in eight people who are colour-blind in some way. And it doesn't name or umber any of the chairs/télécabines, again for clarity, but anyone unfamiliar with the area would probably want to know the lift name as a reassuring check they are where they think they are.

You know it makes sense.

While electronic maps have their problems, let's not pretend paper always work great in wet and windy conditions!

As said above when they are free too many just end up in bins. Similar to the plastic bag charge in UK, 1euro is enough to make you think "do I really need this", and if yes actually look after it a bit rather than just pick up a new one tomorrow. It's not a big enough cost to actually put anyone off getting one if they feel it's necessary.

@limegreen1, couldn't agree more. Every chair should have a piste map on the bar. It's such a small cost to the resort yet makes things so much easier.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

@LaForet, why not take a standard topo map and draw the pistes on it? But that raise all sorts of problems with IPR.

I really admire the art of the piste map creators. They display a very complex set of information in a very compact and easily understood form.

A snowHead

Apps are getting more advanced where they also have sat-nav built in, so can see why paper copies are no longer used as much. Reminds me of our local football team (not a high standard) who no longer produce a match day teamsheet/program & went digital instead as many copies went unsold, so was a waste of club funds.

I like a paper copy. Gives me something to look at during a pit stop, see where I have been & where I am going next - possibly mark out runs I would like to do again or avoid! I do not think you can do that so easily on a digital version. Certainly not one I have seen where you can edit/draw.

1 Euro is not bad, but they should really be free with a multi-day lift pass, even if it was only optional & you have to ask for one (certainly dont need one for each member of a group - 1/2 cant even read a map!). Saying that, I have always found a supply by the accommodation provider.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

i like also the paper copies...and to be honest i usually read them after breakfast....in WC...dont ask why....

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Some of you may find FatMap interesting, I think the basic Fatmap service is free?

And this is the sort of info it provides, though I'm not sure the all-important restaurants are on there Shocked

And then zoomed in

There's a load of other info on there to if you click on an icon.

And a great feature is that you can look at slope aspect, so you can work out where the sun is doing it's thing and softening the snow up, especially worthwhile at the moment, there are other numerous overlays such as gradient / avalanche aspect which I use for planning (paid version)

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@Chaletbeauroc, I tried Fatmap early on and had issues with it not having very much data (IIRC) and all the interesting features were locked behind the paywall. I've just downloaded it again and it does seem to have improved the free offering quite substantially.

After all it is free

On our boat we have two dedicated chart plotters and several other devices which know exactly where we are. But when planning anything other than a local trip we start with a paper chart (often donkey's years old) spread out on the table.

Clearly my facetiousness is not obvious enough Twisted Evil

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This has been mostly along the French coast. Thing is, zooming out on the Brittany Coast, for example, you lose all the detail and zooming in you lose the feel for the distances and directions. And we also find that having a big chart out let's us get a kind of bird's eye view of the tidal flows - absolutely fundamental along that coast. Being only very "amateur" navigators we like to get an overall feel for that. We also use the Almanac a lot. Really old fashioned! And on a severely practical note, the position of the chart plotters means we can't comfortably "gather round them", glass of wine in hand, the way we do with the charts on the table. Many people have commented that they can't use phones/apps out on the slopes - in areas that I don't know well (and I only know one area well.....) a map (or an Alastair clone) is indispensable for me.

You know it makes sense.

Same in aviation, paper charts and approach plates abandoned a long time ago. Everything is on a company supplied iPad. This holds true when I'm flying both commercial and GA.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I tend to take one for the week, just in case my mobile dies or no signal and then I like to get a fresh one to take home to add to our collection. Some resort apps are much better than others. I soley used the PDS one this week and didn't even pick up a paper copy.

A snowHead

A snowHead

@Fridge03, @ecureuil,
You can download offline maps.
There are lots of map apps, so that is not really an excuse.
However, a wet screen & faffing around with gloves meaning the touchscreen does not work so well is Toofy Grin

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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The lifties and pisteurs know the area they work in really well. You can always ask them!

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

We’ve just got a whopper on our wall for planning purposes…

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I can see the point of charging for maps, if the resorts produced maps that were better than the 'perspective' maps that distort the distances. And they were more durable. With the prices charged for a week's liftpass, you would have thought that the lift company could absorb the cost but hey I've no idea what their margins are.

I would object to only having maps available on an app. While there are definitely benefits, the patchy nature of connections when you are skiing can mean that you can't rely on the app being able to update itself. More likely, a badly-implemented app may work your phone hard through constantly pinging for updates and GPS fixes, running down the battery. A newish phone battery will probably survive the day, my teenagers' phones will not. To say nothing of the faff of having to take off gloves to work the phone.

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If this becomes common then it'll mean even more mobile phones (and gloves, probably) lost from chairlifts.
How does the disposal of biodegradable paper compare to non-biodegradable mobiles? Not exactly saving the planet. Confused

After all it is free

@Fridge03, @ecureuil, @Bergmeister, @brianatab

I spend a substantial amount of time away from the resort both in the Summer and the Winter.

I'm just back from 3.5 hrs in an area I wouldn't say I know that well. In fact, I was not planning to go there but our usual sectors were mobbed with people obviously decamping here from the Northern Alps.

My number one piece of kit is my varifocal prescription sunnies, in fact, you can buy cycling sunnies with a reading lens in the bottom, or from Amazon you can buy stick-on reading lenses and put these on your existing sunnies.

Now my eyesight requires prescription my sunnies are varifocal as I am forever looking at my watch/bike computer and phone. I probably wear my sunnies 90% of the time up the hill, as well as cross-country skiing and obviously whenever I'm on two wheels.

I have my IGN French maps offline so all it required was the occasional cursory glance to see exactly where I was in relation to the ski tour route. Then once back I can download my GPX track and note where I could have gone etc

Then using FatMap and my track from today, I can plan other options to a couple of rather lovely bowls that I saw today.

IMV they should at least give one free map per skipass. They'd do it if it was about waste or litter (actually, don't remember ever seeing a lot ofaps littering a resort). Or charge 20 cents.
I think it's about squeezing a few more bits for a service that used to be covered by the skipass price. A few bean counters probably sat around thinking, 1 euro per visitor it's a few hundred thousand euros per season out of thin air. What's next, paying extra to sit in a gondola?

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@Listening, I suppose "what's next" is charging for the keycard the pass is loaded on, charging for delivering the pass to your home address, charging for priority access to queues, charging for certain "premium" top lifts / cable cars.

...except that all of the above are already charged for in many resorts. It's just another one of those small extras.

Help!!

Paying for Piste Maps

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