 Poster: A snowHead
|
| under a new name wrote: |
@Old Fartbag, hmmm,
1. would you expect to play decent tennis from zero with every 3rd saturday playing, and not every year?
2. on 6 consecutive days a year, I reckon most folks take a couple of days to get back to where they were at the end of the previous year's week. |
I played a lot of tennis when I was younger. What really made the difference was coaching. I played against people who played regularly for years, but never improved, as they didn't put in the effort. If you have bad habits, regularly playing just ingrains the bad habits. This is also particularly the case with Golf.
I agree that it takes a couple of days to get back to where you were - but that doesn't mean you can't take a certain aspect of your skiing, work on it and improve on it. I'm now at a level that getting a large improvement won't happen without serious coaching and spending much more time than 6 days...but....that doesn't mean I can't make some small improvement on the previous year. I usually come away having improved something.
IMV. It is easier to go from Intermediate to Advanced, than Advanced to good Expert.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
I've always found a little coaching goes a long way - especially in the early days*. Which is why I was surprised the OP got so little out of the sessions they had.
* Later on you can progress more yourself as you understand more and can self analyse.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| OF wrote: |
| ...People who ski one week per year can certainly get themselves to a decent advanced level, with good Instruction and targeted Drills. [I am not talking about becoming an expert] |
I was getting ready to disagree strongly until I found the bit I inserted in there in red 
If you practice the piano for 5 days a year, how good would you be after 20 years? I'm unconvinced skiing doesn't have similar characteristics in that respect. Almost without fail if I ever come across an English person who can ski well, then they learned on plastic, and not just a day or two a year now and then: I mean, week-in, week-out regular practice. Some of those people are self-taught, some used other approaches, but I don't think that's the key thing, I think it's the time and effort you put into it. That's not a moral argument, just how the whole skill building thing works.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
@philwig, exactly that.
Substitute any reasonably proprioceptively demanding - or demanding dynamic balance. Golf, tennis, etc.
Jeez, just look at Parisiens driving to go on holiday. It is no surprise that something like 40% of French traffic accidents occur on the one day they ALL go on their summer annuals.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| philwig wrote: |
| OF wrote: |
| ...People who ski one week per year can certainly get themselves to a decent advanced level, with good Instruction and targeted Drills. [I am not talking about becoming an expert] |
I was getting ready to disagree strongly until I found the bit I inserted in there in red
If you practice the piano for 5 days a year, how good would you be after 20 years? I'm unconvinced skiing doesn't have similar characteristics in that respect. Almost without fail if I ever come across an English person who can ski well, then they learned on plastic, and not just a day or two a year now and then: I mean, week-in, week-out regular practice. Some of those people are self-taught, some used other approaches, but I don't think that's the key thing, I think it's the time and effort you put into it. That's not a moral argument, just how the whole skill building thing works. |
That bit you highlighted is absolutely key to the point I am trying to make.
I am talking about what's needed to get off the Intermediate plateau, which is what the thread title is asking about. Now, if the question was, "I am a good advanced skier, but have trouble with ziplining Black icy moguls and want to jump off cliffs and straight line couloirs, what do I need to do?".....I'd be firmly in the camp that a few drills and a lesson or two won't cut it.
The main impediments that stop progression to a more advanced level are usually very similar amongst individuals....and are something that a good Instructor can radically improve over the course of a few lessons (including relevant drills) - provided the person is prepared to work on it (which is usually the case if they've shelled out significant money in the first place).
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
I'm a similar age and level to the OP and have reached that intermediate plateau.
Whilst I'd love to be able to ski every day for 4 or 5 months like most people I am limited due to 1 or if I'm lucky 2 weeks a year due to finances, work and family commitments. And Covid hasn't helped the last couple of years either!
The way I see it is if you only get to go once a year you need to enjoy your holiday rather than stress too much about not being able to ski steep icy blacks and bumps perfectly. Watch the videos, try things out and maybe take a private lesson as they might be able to identify one or two key flaws you can improve. But at the end of the day if you can comfortably ski blues and reds do that and enjoy it!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| SlipnSlide wrote: |
| But at the end of the day if you can comfortably ski blues and reds do that and enjoy it! |
Unfortunately that doesn't work for everyone - it all depends what you want out of your holiday. I know when I reached the plateau I soon got really bored and was ready to give up on skiing altogether, but then discovered off piste which gives endless challenges, and more recently top class instruction through Snowheads bashes has made another big difference. The PiPAU Bash has taken my piste skiing to a new level and given me lots to work on. So much so that the fact that off piste looks doubtful for the Gnarli Bash in a couple of weeks doesn't worry me like it normally would.
There's no doubt in mind that the OP needs more lessons from better coaches/instructors than those they used previously.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| leodevlin wrote: |
| pam w wrote: |
| Welcome to Snowheads, @leodevlin. Where are you based? |
Thank you. I am in Vancouver. |
. As a fellow 604er, I'd suggest that at a minimum you look into doing the Whistler Max 5 lesson for 3 consecutive days (for the price of 2) BUT book far enough in advance that you can specify that you want a CSIA 4 qualified instructor - this will increase the odds that you will be correctly diagnosed AND corrected.
If you can invest a bit more time, there are week-long camps at Whistler run by Yes: https://www.yesimprovement.com/programs/ski-improvement/whistler/ One of the instructors, Barry Allison, is also a highly regarded bootfitter - it's possible that your boots are holding you back because you're not properly aligned.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
“Think less about shin pressure and more about flexing the ankle”
This.
For years (actually decades) I was what you might describe as an advanced intermediate skier. I defined my ability by the difficulty of the slopes that I could get down. I skied mostly off piste, the steeper the better. Because I could ski (to an approximation) down very steep off piste slopes, I naturally assumed that I was an advanced skier. I was completely wrong.
There was a discussion (perhaps on here, I don’t remember) about the difference between intermediate and advanced skiers. By far and away the best comment was from a guy who said in effect , they are two different sports.
IMO The fundamental difference is that advanced skiers use two different methods of turning. They can rotate their skis just like intermediates. But they can also turn by actively tipping the skis on edge using their ankles, which causes the skis to bend and turn. If you can’t do this or don’t know how to do this or have never tried it then you will never become an advanced skier.
Being able to do this is not restricted to “carving“. That’s just the 100% extreme case. It applies to all skiing. Advanced skiers blend rotary and tipping. Intermediates just rotate.
I learned to tip my skis on an instructor course. But I remember at the end of the course saying to one of the coaches “are you telling me that I’ve spent thousands of pounds when all along you could just have told me to roll my ankles?”.
He just winked.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I can recommend Nonstop Ski, Fernie, for training.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| Quote: |
People who ski one week per year can certainly get themselves to a decent advanced level, with good Instruction and targeted Drills.
|
I think our definitions of advanced are quite different!
You are never going to be good at any skill if you only practice it for 1 week a year. It's an unpopular opinion, because for most people they only get 1 or 2 weeks a year but want to consider themselves "advanced/expert". I suspect 99% stuck on the "intermediate plateau" would blast through it and end up "advanced" or close to it after a full season. Once you have the basic techniques acquired through lessons time on snow actively practicing, with a few lessons thrown in to fix specific problems is the key to maximising potential.
| Quote: |
When there is a groomed wide slope without bumps , I can to some effect bring it all together, but the second I hit anything un-groomed, icy , bumpy or narrow all the wheels come off.
|
I know a few people that are technically good and look great on nice groomers and then go to pieces as soon as conditions aren't perfect. A lot of it is confidence, which you only get by practicing skiing those conditions a lot.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
^ spot on.
Anything less than 2 consecutive weeks a season is mighty slow, if any, progress at the intermediate level.
Lessons won’t do you much good if there’s minimal practice.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| boarder2020 wrote: |
I think our definitions of advanced are quite different!
|
I'm not sure they are.
I do agree that few achieve a decent level, as most stop taking group lessons when they can get about the mountain and thus don't progress. I also agree that on one week per year, it will take a long time.
IMV. There is also a big difference between Advanced and Expert.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
All but a very few skiers are stuck at some sort of intermediate level and progressing past it takes real focus and time/effort. That is of course applying a wide spectrum to intermediate. I can ski all over the mountain in most conditions but actually even skiing 40+ days per year don't feel I'm really progressing as aging also takes hold. Of course if I spent say 25% of my days on quality coaching I might progress. Equally I'd be certain that if I did those 40 consecutively I'd be at a higher peak of perhaps where I was when I last did a season. That just isn't realistic for most skiers during working lives yet age and injury will nail us when we are able to retire.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| boarder2020 wrote: |
I think our definitions of advanced are quite different!
|
I'm not sure they are.
I do agree that few achieve a decent level, as most stop taking group lessons when they can get about the mountain and thus don't progress. I also agree that on one week per year, it will take a long time.
IMV. There is also a big difference between Advanced and Expert. |
When I first started snowboarding I was doing 1 week a year. Had some friends that had been doing 2 weeks a year and would have described them as advanced. Then I started doing seasons, riding with people that have done multiple seasons, competing in freeride 2* comps, skiing challenging back country lines etc. Got the chance to ski with my original friends again and realised they were just intermediate, at the time I just didn't know better.
You are right there is a big difference between advanced and expert, but I'd argue the difference between a good 1 week a year skiier and a good skier that's done a season or two is just as vast.
It takes me more than a week each season to get back to where I was the season before - at that's with 60 days+ ingraining the movement patterns the season before. At 1 week a year progress is going to be excruciating slow (if at all).
I don't think the issue is about becoming a great skier - if you are a decent intermediate you can certainly enjoy the mountain. It's more managing expectations, which can become unrealistic. In the case of op:
| Quote: |
I watch with awe how some people just so elegantly breeze down the slopes no matter what the condition of the slope is and I am so frustrated at the fact that the smallest obstacle throws me off my game
|
Many of those people probably grew up skiing and have done over 1000 days skiing in their lives. Many of the Vancouver mountain skiers are locals so they probably know the slopes like the back of their hands which is also going to help. You are not going to reach their level with just 1 week per year, it's an unrealistic goal which is only going to lead to disappointment.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Quote: |
I watch with awe how some people just so elegantly breeze down the slopes no matter what the condition of the slope is and I am so frustrated at the fact that the smallest obstacle throws me off my game
|
Many of those people probably grew up skiing and have done over 1000 days skiing in their lives. Many of the Vancouver mountain skiers are locals so they probably know the slopes like the back of their hands which is also going to help. You are not going to reach their level with just 1 week per year, it's an unrealistic goal which is only going to lead to disappointment. |
This entirely. I watched a friend ski recently with envy, it looked absolutely effortless and compared to my poor efforts top class. Was ready to have a crisis about it until she bluntly pointed out to me that she'd first skied at 3, and spent a couple of seasons skiing full time (as she put it, learning very quickly how to do it properly so she could keep up with the natives). There is zero point worrying about your level compared to anyone else's - people have different levels of experience, improve and plateau at different rates, and are good at some things and not others across the skiing spectrum.
Playing that game also makes it less fun (certainly does when I do it  ) and there's so many fun things about skiing that worrying about not being perfect seems a waste. Makes the most of the time you have on planks, be that with some really good lessons, or an afternoon learning how to ski backwards, or whatever seems entertaining at the time. The improvement will come, even if it's not to life long skier standards. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Skiing is a sport which seems to engender unrealistic goals of becoming constantly better at it. It's partly the "ski school level" thing. Someone expressed in another thread recently the expectation that their kids would go "up a level" each year (ie each week). That's crazy. My neighbours in France lived in Geneva (she was French) and they had an apartment in the mountains. The kids (who were pretty whizzo skiers and had skied from a very early age) were required to progress through the ESF system and I remember the youngest being disappointed one time because she'd not passed the slalom speed test which was needed for the next level. The family regarded this as entirely trivial, and pointed out that she was pretty young for the level she was at, so had done very well. I get the impression that quite a lot of French families rather insist on the kids going through ESF and are not impressed with arguments that they're now too good for ski school and just want to muck around. And many British skiers start as adults. Few of us can take up a sport as adults and get good at it.
Most of us adults can swim, having learnt as kids - but do we expect to keep getting better at it? How many of us can swim better now than we could in our early 20s? Or even as well? Do we complain, if we spend a week on a beach in Spain, that we didn't seem to be swimming any better than we had last year? And that the local kids, diving off the rocks, made it look so much easier.
Yes, some people put in a lot of effort, have a lot of good quality and expensive coaching, spend time doing drills, work on their fitness. Most don't, but they still have a great holiday. It's not just the time spent in lessons, either. Some people have terrific athletic ability. One visitor to our apartment, who had never even seen snow before, could make a good stab at one footed turns, on either foot, down an easy blue slope, before the end of his first week. But he'd been a professional cricketer, wicket keeping for a top English county. I suspect he's not been skiing since, but it would take him very few days back on skis to ski a lot better than I (who's had lots of lessons).
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
@boarder2020, I have nothing to disagree with there - though IMV some clarification is necessary. Just because you do a season, or even live there for most of the season, doesn't mean you will be an Expert. There has to be a willingness to challenge yourself and improve. There are those that are comfortable floating about On Piste and enjoying the Mountains. In that scenario, a motivated 1 week per year skier can match, or even supersede that level after a (good?) while.
There is (of course) also a difference in "working on expert techniques" and being an expert in those areas. For me, one of the differences in Advanced and Expert skiers, is Experts have a whole "Tool Box" of techniques at their disposal, can read the mountain and the snow condition and then use the correct turn/turn shape, at the correct time, to remain in control and make life as easy as possible.
Generally, the only people I have seen that are truly "Expert" in "All" areas, have been Pros and Level 4 Instructors. You can however be a Pro in one area and hopeless in another.....I think there was a Video of Picabo Street, the American Downhill skier, where she was filmed skiing Moguls in a very mediocre way.
I had a discussion on another thread with Philwig, where he suggested that at least 100 days would be needed to become a decent skier. This is about 16 or 17 weeks - which I think is reasonable, provided the work is put in and there is a reasonable athletic ability. Usually though, the work isn't put in, as it is costly, time consuming and requires tunnel vision dedication.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Wed 6-04-22 17:27; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| Usually though, the work isn't put in, as it is costly, time consuming and requires tunnel vision dedication. |
and just skiing, at whatever your existing level is, is still hella fun.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| Usually though, the work isn't put in, as it is costly, time consuming and requires tunnel vision dedication. |
and just skiing, at whatever your existing level is, is still hella fun. |
Exactly so.
The addictive bit for some (including me), is the better you get, the more fun it becomes. The trouble is, the better you get, the harder it is to make more significant improvements.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
@Old Fartbag, completely agree. Know a few people that do 50+ days a year, but aren't improving because they just like gentle crusing around easy runs all day. Of course absolutely nothing wrong with that, that's what they enjoy and they don't care about getting better.
I tend to reserve "expert" for professionals. I have a friend that has podiumed a few FWT 2* comps - fantastic skier. There's still a huge gulf between him and the pros. For example I once saw Logan pehota step out first gondola of the day and immediately throw a 360 down a 20ft+ cliff. You would have to be a very good advanced skier to even think about straight airing it, and for him it was almost a throwaway trick. I've seen turdell ski a few times and even from a distance without him throwing huge airs or tricks it's obvious he's on another level to the "advanced" guys in the 2* and 4* comps.
It's the classic normal distribution curve. By definition most of us are somewhere in the middle. We can't all be advanced, and the odds of becoming "expert" even with all the coaching in the world are tiny, they are less than 0.1% of total skiers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@boarder2020, I have a special category - "Expert Holiday Skier". It seems to work for me, anyway. 
I can remember asking an Instructor if he had ever taught a Pupil as good as he was - I think you know the answer. He was very matter-of-fact and just said that his level of training combined with his time on snow, was the reason.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| All but a very few skiers are stuck at some sort of intermediate level and progressing past it takes real focus and time/effort. That is of course applying a wide spectrum to intermediate. I can ski all over the mountain in most conditions but actually even skiing 40+ days per year don't feel I'm really progressing as aging also takes hold. Of course if I spent say 25% of my days on quality coaching I might progress. Equally I'd be certain that if I did those 40 consecutively I'd be at a higher peak of perhaps where I was when I last did a season. That just isn't realistic for most skiers during working lives yet age and injury will nail us when we are able to retire. |
Absolutely this!
And throw in fitness, or rather ski fitness. Over the last 6 Winters, I guess I’ve skied, on average, 35 days a season. I’m probably (no, definitely) fitter now than at any time since I started skiing, 20 years ago. However, skiing regularly, but not cramming in 6 day “holiday skiing” and skiing familiar resorts has moved my skiing onto a level that I’m sure I’d never have attained.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| boarder2020 wrote: |
I tend to reserve "expert" for professionals.
|
Hmmm, personally I think that's too restrictive. Yes, the top pros are on another level entirely, but I don't think you have to be a pro to be an expert. For me, an expert is someone who has complete competence and confidence in all conditions. So for skiing, someone who can safely and with good technique tackle pretty much anything that a normal mortal would consider skiing. I don't think you have to be putting down lines that compete for "line of the season" to be an expert. And you don't have to make your living in the sport (though an expert probably could, if they liked and were good at instructing).
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| mgrolf wrote: |
| boarder2020 wrote: |
I tend to reserve "expert" for professionals.
|
Hmmm, personally I think that's too restrictive. Yes, the top pros are on another level entirely, but I don't think you have to be a pro to be an expert. For me, an expert is someone who has complete competence and confidence in all conditions. So for skiing, someone who can safely and with good technique tackle pretty much anything that a normal mortal would consider skiing. I don't think you have to be putting down lines that compete for "line of the season" to be an expert. And you don't have to make your living in the sport (though an expert probably could, if they liked and were good at instructing). |
When I said pros I was thinking more pro skiers than mountain professionals - although yes some guides and instructors would make my personal "expert" definition. For me your bar is too low. Go to kicking horse and you will see plenty of people competently skiing the FWT faces - complete control, flowing linked turns. I don't think they can all be experts, imo the term has to be reserved for a top %age of skiers. Of course you can argue exactly what top percentage that should be - which is the problem with these kind of vague arbitrary terms based on our individual personal judgements.
I guess we have went off topic enough already so maybe we can just agree that our definitions are a little different but have zero effect on life anyway
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
@boarder2020, trying to pull it back towards the OP's original question, the difficulty of defining "expert" is why I think it's useful to have "advanced" as a step between intermediate and expert. I think it's reasonable for a typical 1-2 week/year holiday skier, who applies themselves (i.e. takes lessons, practices) to aspire to this. It's still not easy and many people won't get there (nor care) but being able to ski most pistes (and off piste, if that's your thing) in control, in most conditions using appropriate techniques is, for me, more than an intermediate (but less than expert). An advanced skier would likely survive most reasonable descents but might well lose form or style, and probably wouldn't take on the FWT face in Kicking Horse* (or if they did, an observer could tell they were struggling).
*I have no idea how challenging this face is but I'm assuming that ye average holiday skier wouldn't readily take it on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
@joffy69,
hi, have you done the nonstop course in Fernie? How did you find it?
I've been looking at it for a few years now and would love to hear from someone who has been there.
4 weeks or 6 weeks?
was the snow decent enough?
I suffer from the cold and so would head for the later March weeks.
I would also need to work on my fitness and try and avoid injury! (am 52)
Thanks, Elaine
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| mgrolf wrote: |
| ... trying to pull it back towards the OP's original question, the difficulty of defining "expert" is why I think it's useful to have "advanced" as a step between intermediate and expert. ... |
But the OP described wanting to ski like people who "elegantly breeze" down the slopes.
He didn't mention winning Olympic gold, or being world champion freeride, just getting to the "next level".
Whatever, my answer's still: practice enough to learn how to ski.
1,000 days will get you there, so long as you don't take 100 years do do them.
100 days may get you there if you're good and focused and work at it and don't spread them out too much.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
@mgrolf, here's ozone face at kicking horse https://snowbrains.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/best-190206-7042-min.jpg
I see plenty of what I would class intermediates survive it - even some 6-7 year old kids. Advanced skiers are making it look good, and picking out lines in terms of aesthetics or straight airing smaller cliffs. Experts are on another level, throwing tricks down the biggest cliffs, and even more fluid and fast.
I think a 2-3 week per year skier can get down it, but they are not going to make it look good or pick out a harder line making them intermediate in my book. Like I say arbitrary grades, that's a lot of personal opinion. I'd argue the bar is possibly a bit lower in Europe as anyone that can get down ozone ok probably looks good on any black euro pisted run so maybe would be considered more advanced there.
@murphels, fernie tends not to be as cold as Banff and other interior resorts in canada If anything the problem is it's too low and can be warmer and suffer from rain later in the season. So I'd probably say February is the best balance of missing coldest time but less risk of rain. It usually gets a lot of snow, that shouldn't be a problem. Non-stop course is very expensive, you pay a big premium for them arranging everything. You could do a season there, including lift pass, accomodation, flights, transfers, and all your food (but no coaching) for comfortably less than the 4-6 week courses cost. That said the people that do the courses all give food feedback. They do tend to be younger gap year type crowd.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
I think it’s not all that helpful to keep arguing about who is or isn’t an expert. The fact is that skiing is like all other forms of human activity in that you will improve with practice. There is nothing I do that I don’t do better the more I do it. I am 57, I first skied when I was 4 and I’m still improving.
I’ve spent most of my skiing life with people who are faster and better than me and trying to keep up, watching what they do, improves my skiing. I ski well enough to enjoy myself in a wide variety of conditions. Sometimes people lose sight of the basic reason they ski - it’s the best fun you can have with your clothes on! 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Quote: |
The fact is that skiing is like all other forms of human activity in that you will improve with practice
|
Time spent practising is necessary but not sufficient. You will improve with focussed practice (for which most of us need coaching/teaching) but anyone who has spent any time round most ski resorts knows that practically everyone is an "intermediate". And if you watch people swimming in a hotel pool, or the sea, most people are "intermediate" swimmers. Watch people at a tennis club = "intermediate" tennis players. Watch a sailing club dinghy race - "intermediate" sailors. To reach expert level you need a combination of natural ability, time and some focussed help/coaching. Not many people have it all. Or care that much!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Quote: |
I think it’s not all that helpful to keep arguing about who is or isn’t an expert.
|
I agree, in that there is no correct answer, too much opinion. However, these different abilities can relevant to setting realistic expectations.
| Quote: |
but anyone who has spent any time round most ski resorts knows that practically everyone is an "intermediate"
|
Classic normal distribution curve. Most people are average. That's why for most people just doing 1-2 weeks a year getting above intermediate is not a realistic goal.
| Quote: |
You will improve with focussed practice (for which most of us need coaching/teaching)
|
No arguments that focused practice is better. However, I think just skiing will improve most people to some degree, even if not technical perhaps psychological (more confidence, desensitisation to speed/steeps), and increases in ski fitness. There is a huge spectrum from: just pootling around enjoying the views with no real thought about skiing to obsessive learner with 1:1 ski coach. I know plenty of people that got pretty good by just skiing with their much higher ability friends, without serious thought about technique.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Quote: |
However, I think just skiing will improve most people to some degree, even if not technical perhaps psychological (more confidence, desensitisation to speed/steeps), and increases in ski fitness.
|
Most of us who've had a week's holiday once a year would feel it took a few days to get back to where we were the end of the previous holiday, then hope to have improved (if we had lessons). I once went skiing for the first time with friends who had skied a lot, and was stunned with how hopeless they were! Not that I was any great shakes, but I'd had quite a lot of good lessons, and did try to improve. One holiday week a year then watching telly for the next 51 does nothing much for ski fitness - and sometimes the rate people go downhill physically with age is fighting a battle with the extent to which their technique and/or confidence improves. I suspect that most people you see "breezing" round the slopes skied as kids. Learning a demanding new physical skill as an adult is challenging.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| pam w wrote: |
| I suspect that most people you see "breezing" round the slopes skied as kids. Learning a demanding new physical skill as an adult is challenging. |
But we all love a challenge, don't we? FWIW I didn't start skiing until my mid-30s, and while I might not be in the .1% of boarder's 'expert' definition I can certainly breeze around a bit. But I tend not to. Instead I'm always thinking about what I'm doing, focussing on some aspect or another, constantly pushing myself.
I do find that some people can be a bit defeatist about ageing and the ability to (continue to) progress. I'm still improving and my technical improvements have so far managed to outweigh and overcome the physical deterioration. I encourage anyone of any age to aspire to improvement and not succumb to the "I'm too old to..." attitude. My own personal mantra, which I try to pass on to students, is that the older we get the more important it is to be efficient in our skiing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| My own personal mantra, which I try to pass on to students, is that the older we get the more important it is to be efficient in our skiing. |
Ain't that the truth.
When skiing well, I'm not fighting against my skis (and the mountain), but letting/allowing them do their thing. When I'm fighting against them, the noise level (from both me and the skis on the snow) goes up.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Old Fartbag wrote: |
When skiing well, I'm not fighting against my skis (and the mountain), but letting/allowing them do their thing. When I'm fighting against them, the noise level (from both me and the skis on the snow) goes up. |
Moving less snow and moving less of your body are two great ways of explaining how one can be more efficient and use less energy in one's skiing. Many adults respond well to this sort of analogy, which can help them to accept the rationale behind a technique or exercise, especially those who, like myself, need to understand _why_ before working on the _how_.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| Old Fartbag wrote: |
When skiing well, I'm not fighting against my skis (and the mountain), but letting/allowing them do their thing. When I'm fighting against them, the noise level (from both me and the skis on the snow) goes up. |
Moving less snow and moving less of your body are two great ways of explaining how one can be more efficient and use less energy in one's skiing. Many adults respond well to this sort of analogy, which can help them to accept the rationale behind a technique or exercise, especially those who, like myself, need to understand _why_ before working on the _how_. |
I'm also a "Why" before the "How" learner......whereas Lady F shuts off completely if an instructor starts drawing lines in the snow with his ski pole - and starts talking about CoM and Centrifugal force. For me, understanding why a ski is shaped/designed/constructed liked it is and how best to use that to your advantage - is key.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
However, I think just skiing will improve most people to some degree, even if not technical perhaps psychological (more confidence, desensitisation to speed/steeps), and increases in ski fitness.
|
Most of us who've had a week's holiday once a year would feel it took a few days to get back to where we were the end of the previous holiday, then hope to have improved (if we had lessons). I once went skiing for the first time with friends who had skied a lot, and was stunned with how hopeless they were! Not that I was any great shakes, but I'd had quite a lot of good lessons, and did try to improve. One holiday week a year then watching telly for the next 51 does nothing much for ski fitness - and sometimes the rate people go downhill physically with age is fighting a battle with the extent to which their technique and/or confidence improves. I suspect that most people you see "breezing" round the slopes skied as kids. Learning a demanding new physical skill as an adult is challenging. |
By more time I was referring to "months" not "weeks". Someone doing a season and happy to push their boundaries a bit will likely get a fair bit of improvement even without actively think about things too much. I'd agree 1 week a year is not sufficient to get "good".
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| pam w wrote: |
| ... Learning a demanding new physical skill as an adult is challenging. |
I think that learning a demanding new physical skill at any age is challenging. Evidence: - Most kids can swim, few can swim well.
- Most kids can ski, but almost all are "intermediate" and will never progress.
- The OP started as a kid and is still an expert beginner.
To learn to do something non-trivial well takes practice, irrespective of age.
I do think though that if one is stuck as an expert beginner, the chances of fixing that reduces year on year,
because if you were going to fix it, you'd have done it by now. That, I think, is probably why you'll find proportionally
more experts who learned young, if you see what I mean.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yes, I didn't mean that all kids who ski when they're young will become expert skiers. The kids in the local ski clubs in the French ski resorts (and no doubt elsewhere) are in a highly competitive environment and are pushed hard. Only the best will be knocking on the doors of a national squad, but many of the unsuccessful dropouts will ski better than almost any British holiday skier can hope to do.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
