 Poster: A snowHead
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When my daughter and son in law (both teachers, and both experienced skiers) were at UCPA Flaine one half term a few years ago they complained not of the lift queues, but the horribly crowded pistes - installing faster uplift doesn't solve the problem of overcrowding. But this sounds like an accident caused by impatience, rather than overcrowding, like a motorist overtaking a cyclist on a bend.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| zikomo wrote: |
| They never ski at those speeds on public pistes, and I do not allow them to use GS race skis outside of training areas. |
Not nicknamed Kiddie Killers for nothing but I suspect your kids would be far safer with them then your average tourist with " give me the super duper carver I like to ski faaaast!" In the rental shop. For starters racers spend a lot of time skiing fast skis at slow speeds in drills and know how to shutdown on the spot. Can't see any use case for SG skis on public slopes though.
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| pam w wrote: |
| like a motorist overtaking a cyclist on a bend. |
We dont know that yet. There could be 2x victims in this mess.
I have been cut up a snake of kids doing lessons forcing me off the marked piste as I had nowhere to go. I was going slow, waiting for other half to catch up & was overtaken by the snake. As I was going slow, I could safely take a tumble on the embankment. If it had happened the other side of the piste,then I would not have left the marked area.
Instructors fault. There was only him instructing & a snake of about 15 kids. The snake traversed the full width of the piste & he should have snaked back & not bring the whole snake in front of me which could have ended up in a pile up collision. The kids are not looking where they are going & only looking ahead to keep up with the snake. Equally it could have been some pissed up bloke to tight to pay for lessons. There should be a proficiency test.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Sun 16-01-22 16:02; edited 2 times in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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First, what an absolutely heart-rending situation for the parents. It’s beyond imaginable.
Thank you pam w, often the voice of reason. Too often we see/hear over speculation on the causes before the full facts are known. IMO.
Accidents do happen when skiing. Can they be avoided? Probably often but possibly not always.
| pam w wrote: |
| These stories are just horrific, especially when we're all so happy to read about families going skiing again, after such a long time. BUT - we shouldn't get the risks out of proportion. Child cyclists, or just (as in a recent case) a toddler being pushed along a pavement by their mother, are killed in RTAs. Really, the chances of going on holiday with the family and having a child killed in a collision on the slopes are vanishingly small. 4 people a day including a sad number of kids, are killed on Britain's roads. My two local grandchildren, aged 9 and 11, have been cycling on the road, with their (experienced cyclist) parents, for some years. They must be running more risk, objectively speaking, than the one week a year they spend skiing (when they can afford it). Kids drown, too more often than they are killed on the slopes. |
Just one final note, worth mentioning. It’s possible that the parents are snowHeads, or they may have friends/family who are. Probably worth bearing in mind before idle speculation careens off, on a post that should offer something a little more constrained when it so obviously concerns such a specifically tragic event.
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| bambionskiis wrote: |
| The report said the little one was in a single file behind the instructor, on a blue, turning right. A question will be asked of if the instructor looked uphill properly before leading them i guess. I’m so nervous approaching ski schools because they are sometimes quite erratic. I suppose that’s the thing though, knowing this you should always approach with caution. A horrible horrible situation |
The "Requirement" is to look uphill before entering, leaving or crossing a piste. Once you set off you have to rely on others observing FIS rules whilst shepherding your group. What does annoy me is when I see fellow instructors snaking across the whole piste with their groups. It is uneccessary and increases the risk of this sort of collision. But, sadly, whatever you do, you can't mitigate for a F***wit!!
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As to the question of not doing more. Resorts in the US do a bit more sometimes through yellow jackets and sometimes banners marking and protecting Rest Areas. But it's largely superficial as they don't have resources, will or judgement to chasedown amd deal with reckless skiers.
The average Euro nutter hour on the home run, the jail cells would be full.
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This is so so horrible. It's taken me a while to comment
Thoughts and prayers with the family struck by this indescribable tragedy
I just cannot see mitigation factor here. That is quite a wide piste and not as busy as Tourmaline. There are a few blind rollers as far as I recall but one should still be aware of the ESF snake even if they couldn't see a couple of the children. A 5yo would have been going very slow, they wouldn't possibly be able to make a sudden turn that would cause this crash! Quite simply this skiier must have been trying to pick his line through the snake such was his disinclination to slow down. Probably aiming to miss the child by less than a metre
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| achilles wrote: |
| The accident in the OP is horrific. I think the French should legislate to allow effective slope monitoring. |
Agreed. All (?) it takes is a change to French Law. And as regards other Alpine ski countries (e.g Austria, Switzerland and Italy) if they don't already have the authority to remove lift passes from dangerous skiers then similar legislative changes would be welcome.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Zikomo, agree 100% - Skitracking apps have a lot to answer for.
As you say you can guarantee anyone pointing straight down a blue or red is doing so in pursuit of a number. Very very sad.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| billb wrote: |
| I know we've been through this many times here but the onus is on the uphill skier to avoid those below him, whatever they do. No exceptions. None. Time after time I've called out to some "expert" who skis far too close when passing you. It's just downright dangerous. |
I've read down to here with this in mind. Is it a 'thing'? It should be, but that's only my opinion.
Alastair Pink then clarified...
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Sun 16-01-22 16:18; edited 1 time in total
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Ironically, if you want to challenge yourself on carving or speed, Flaine has many steep icy reds, but as was mentioned above, accidents happen on blue slopes as the red slopes were probably too difficult for this skier
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
I think the French should legislate to allow effective slope monitoring.
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Have the other alpine ski-nations got more effective, and better enforced, legislation? The skier whose knee was smashed, which I described above, a friend of my sister's, was in Kitzbuhel where her family had long had a chalet and one of her immediate relatives was an instructor.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| RedandWhiteFlachau wrote: |
| bambionskiis wrote: |
| The report said the little one was in a single file behind the instructor, on a blue, turning right. A question will be asked of if the instructor looked uphill properly before leading them i guess. I’m so nervous approaching ski schools because they are sometimes quite erratic. I suppose that’s the thing though, knowing this you should always approach with caution. A horrible horrible situation |
The "Requirement" is to look uphill before entering, leaving or crossing a piste. Once you set off you have to rely on others observing FIS rules whilst shepherding your group. What does annoy me is when I see fellow instructors snaking across the whole piste with their groups. It is uneccessary and increases the risk of this sort of collision. But, sadly, whatever you do, you can't mitigate for a F***wit!! |
Exactly instructors can and should " play defence" with their groups including not snaking the full piste width and my personal bete noire not leading a group on and off piste " for fun" without drilling the group that every member needs to look before rejoining.
From the reports not the issue in this case but I also believe groups of more than 8-10 are a hazard in themselves.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Mr.Egg wrote: |
| pam w wrote: |
| like a motorist overtaking a cyclist on a bend. |
We dont know that yet. There could be 2x victims in this mess.
I have been cut up a snake of kids doing lessons forcing me off the marked piste as I had nowhere to go. I was going slow, waiting for other half to catch up & was overtaken by the snake. As I was going slow, I could safely take a tumble on the embankment. If it had happened the other side of the piste,then I would not have left the marked area.
Instructors fault. There was only him instructing & a snake of about 15 kids. The snake traversed the full width of the piste & he should have snaked back & not bring the whole snake in front of me which could have ended up in a pile up collision. The kids are not looking where they are going & only looking ahead to keep up with the snake. Equally it could have been some pissed up bloke to tight to pay for lessons. There should be a proficiency test. |
There were only 5 children in this group. A group of 5 year olds, I suspect they were traversing the whole piste, they were hardly linking shirt turns. A pain in the ass if you are trying to time yourself going down that run. But that should be tough sht to you, there is no excuse to keep your speed up and pick your line through the group
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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An absolutely tragic event and a reminder to us all as to how dangerous the sport is. I noticed in one article that the 40 year old skier was a volunteer firefighter so he must have some good about him. Also that he stopped and administered first aid at the scene. We must wait for the facts to be established before we rush to judgement. Instead of demonising that one skier I take this as a warning that anyone can lose concentration for a moment and make a mistake that will ruin lives. I for one vow to be as careful as possible particularly when small children are about.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@pam w, From a video I have seen American trails are rigorously policed. I saw a skier who was moving fast on a beginner slope being stopped and have his lift pass marked “R” for reckless - with the warning that a further infringement would result in the pass being confiscated.
My one ski trip to North America was to Fernie where skiing behaviour seemed good. The slopes were patrolled by a couple of Mounties.
Maybe others who have skied across the Pond can comment.
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@tanyastories, yes, good point about the skier stopping and doing what he could.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| NoMapNoCompass wrote: |
Zikomo, agree 100% - Skitracking apps have a lot to answer for.
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Only if you're referring to complete idiots. We use skitracks to track our mileage and yes, do sometimes get a wriggle on to see what we can achieve, but literally only on deserted, off the beaten track pistes. Anyone going for a Skitracks 'record' on a piste with anyone else on it would be a moron. So to blame ski tracking is tantamount to blaming speedometers for motorists speeding.
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| Charliegolf wrote: |
| billb wrote: |
| I know we've been through this many times here but the onus is on the uphill skier to avoid those below him, whatever they do. No exceptions. None. Time after time I've called out to some "expert" who skis far too close when passing you. It's just downright dangerous. |
I've read down to here with this in mind. Is it a 'thing'? It should be, but that's only my opinion.
Alastair Pink then clarified... |
I'm saddened (but not surprised) by the number of skiers and snowboarders who seem totally ignorant of the 10 FIS rules I linked to in my earlier post. They should be known and adhered to by everyone on the slopes! They should be (and usually are) taught to or at the very least mentioned for future reading to everyone who goes through ski or snowboard school. Of course some people never go into ski/snowboard school and just learn what they can from their mates. The ski resorts, ski schools and lift companies often have links on their websites or posters in their buildings about the FIS rules, but sadly far too many people are still ignorant of them. 
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This is terribly sad news. I can across the aftermath of a collision today at the bottom of a red where it starts to flatten out. Skis and poles all over the place. Two blokes had collided, they seemed to know each other and they both appeared to be ok if a little shaken/winded.
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@Alastair Pink, Personally, I think I had a reasonable grasp of the rules. The point that we mentioned earlier was slightly grey and I think in a court situation, it could possibly be argued either way.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I have had a wonderful day today enjoying beautiful weather and some great snow.
Reading this desparate story has moved me too tears the agony for the family is immeasurable.
Condolences to them all.
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Driving to and from the airport is probably more risky overall.
| achilles wrote: |
... From a video I have seen American trails are rigorously policed.
My one ski trip to North America was to Fernie where skiing behaviour seemed good. The slopes were patrolled by a couple of Mounties... |
In Whistler they have for years had yellow-jacketed locals who will stop dangerous skiers in the "safe skiing" (novice/ high-traffic) areas
and will kick people off the slopes if they don't behave. Those areas are clearly marked and well signed.
I find the policing very comforting in high traffic areas. They really do go for the obvious straight-line people
and don't stop brisk competent people who are clearly in control and able to stop quickly.
I don't recall when I last saw "snakes" in BC. Perhaps that's more of a European ski school thing?
They're a hazard because typically only the instructor will be situationally aware - overtaking them is like
overtaking a pedestrian on a UK pavement who is on their phone. Obviously if they use the whole slope then
they're going to have problems if any out of control skiers are about.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Mollerski, I think in law (depending on the country concerned obviously) the FIS rules are a bit like how the Highway Code is treated by UK courts. It is not in itself law, but if you have an accident resulting in injury (or even worse, death) to others caused by your failure to observe the FIS rules then it will count heavily against you.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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The only FIS rule that matters one damn is Rule One... respect other mountain users. Everything else boils down to that one rule.
Respect people when overtaking, respect others when taking your line, respect people with your speed. That's all you ever need to remember.
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
The only FIS rule that matters one damn is Rule One... respect other mountain users. Everything else boils down to that one rule.
Respect people when overtaking, respect others when taking your line, respect people with your speed. That's all you ever need to remember. |
Very little respect about thesedays, I've got to the cage where I finish about 3.30 before the nutters return home especially on a friday when the one week skiers have one too many drinks and go for a last blast, ten years ago I got headbutted by a young snowboarder who was air born after a bump, luckily I was unhurt but I did tell him in no uncertain terms that it was a blue slope just before the town and full of kids and beginners, not the place for the speed he was doing.
Unfortunately it's often the overweight british Male that is chasing a much better skier in a group that are the main menace.
Perhaps all skiers should have to wear a gos tracker that records their speed and their passes disabled if they go to fast in beginners areas.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Mollerski wrote: |
| NoMapNoCompass wrote: |
Zikomo, agree 100% - Skitracking apps have a lot to answer for.
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Only if you're referring to complete idiots. We use skitracks to track our mileage and yes, do sometimes get a wriggle on to see what we can achieve, but literally only on deserted, off the beaten track pistes. Anyone going for a Skitracks 'record' on a piste with anyone else on it would be a moron. So to blame ski tracking is tantamount to blaming speedometers for motorists speeding. |
No it is not the same as speedometers, not at all.
1. The reported speeds are wildly inaccurate. Unless you really believe you can ski as fast or faster than a world cup skier
2. There is no way a recreational skier would be safe at the speeds claimed
3. It is all well and good saying you only try and "see what we can achieve" on deserted slopes. But the unexpected can (and does) still happen. Like your example of another slope user unexpectedly joining the piste. In such an unexpected situation you would likely be a danger to yourself and others
4. If you really want to see how fast you can ski, try some race training where conditions are set up for this.
5. Anyone who thinks the speed reported on their ski tracking app is in any way related to ski ability is indeed a moron
6. I find it distasteful at the least and somewhat pathetic at the worst to hear people bragging about how fast they can ski based on data from a ski tracking app. It is just not cool (or real)
I see in other posts you are also splitting hairs about the FIS rules, on the basis that "blame" would be hard to apportion when someone joining a piste is hit by someone coming down that piste. First of all the FIS guidance is explicit that the rules are not mutually exclusive, they al apply all of the time. Second it is for each slope user to avoid causing disturbance or danger to any other slope user. Third, it is always in your own interest and the interest of others to assume that slope users below you on the piste WILL do something unexpected, and to ensure that no matter what it is you can avoid a collision. Last, the purpose of the FIS rules is not to apportion blame, but to reduce the risk of serious injury for all slope users.
I have been skied into. When teaching and not. Quite a few times. I have never, in all the thousands of miles covered, come close to crashing into someone myself. Partially because my enjoyment of skiing and demonstration of skill is not predicated on absolute speed, especially on easy slopes or where there is inherently higher risk (choke points etc). One example would be big moguls on a home run in the afternoon. It takes more skill to ski down very slowly on a predictable line than to blunder down at speed not being able to make a turn wherever you choose and thus cutting across and into other skiers.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Richard_Sideways is correct about leading with respect while skiing. Probably a good way to roll outside the ski area as well.
There is very little "speed enforcement" in North America. The situations mentioned above are very limited but they do work well. That said, it may be harder to justify having personnel stand there all day especially now given the very serious labor shortages over here this season, they are all struggling to varying degrees.
Patrol will sometimes intervene. Me and the boys went too fast past a slow sign and then stopped over yonder. Patroller skied over and said "from here, the best line is left of the big fir, please watch your speed near slow signs, have a nice day" and was gone. A professional.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Sorry, could I please repeat the question I asked earlier : (presumably lost amongst other posts)
Am I right in assuming that group lessons on piste (in France at least) are led by a single instructor, even for children? This person might be a highly competent skier but can't look everywhere at once. Could it be there should be TWO instructors for children's lessons with one at the back as a "lookout" (or look up)? It would cost more but perhaps this is the safer way forwards, given that slopes are especially busy in school holiday weeks when children are on the slopes.
As an aside, a primary school would never lead children along a footpath with a single adult so it does seem extraordinary that a group of young children can be left in the care of a single adult (possibly young and inexperienced) in a potentially lethal environment.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 16-01-22 20:26; edited 2 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| peanuthead wrote: |
| There were only 5 children in this group. A group of 5 year olds, I suspect they were traversing the whole piste, they were hardly linking shirt turns. A pain in the ass if you are trying to time yourself going down that run. But that should be tough sht to you, there is no excuse to keep your speed up and pick your line through the group |
I'm not trying to be judgemental, but why would any responsible people be timing themselves going down a run? For what purpose? Maybe it's just me, but this just doesn't tie in with what recreational skiing is about. If people want to race, they should be joining a dedicated class for that.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| 195062 wrote: |
| peanuthead wrote: |
| There were only 5 children in this group. A group of 5 year olds, I suspect they were traversing the whole piste, they were hardly linking shirt turns. A pain in the ass if you are trying to time yourself going down that run. But that should be tough sht to you, there is no excuse to keep your speed up and pick your line through the group |
I'm not trying to be judgemental, but why would any responsible people be timing themselves going down a run? For what purpose? Maybe it's just me, but this just doesn't tie in with what recreational skiing is about. If people want to race, they should be joining a dedicated class for that. |
Perhaps "timing" as in timing when to pass the snake (nd getting it tragically wrong) rather than a top to bottom speed timing?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| halfhand wrote: |
| 195062 wrote: |
| peanuthead wrote: |
| There were only 5 children in this group. A group of 5 year olds, I suspect they were traversing the whole piste, they were hardly linking shirt turns. A pain in the ass if you are trying to time yourself going down that run. But that should be tough sht to you, there is no excuse to keep your speed up and pick your line through the group |
I'm not trying to be judgemental, but why would any responsible people be timing themselves going down a run? For what purpose? Maybe it's just me, but this just doesn't tie in with what recreational skiing is about. If people want to race, they should be joining a dedicated class for that. |
Perhaps "timing" as in timing when to pass the snake (nd getting it tragically wrong) rather than a top to bottom speed timing? |
Everyone jumping to conclusions. Nobody here knows what happened.
Someone in the snake could have fallen, that could have sent children to ski off in all directions. Equally, it could have been a nutter going to fast for the conditions & hazards on the slope.
You would not need to go fast as an adult to do serious injury to a 5yr old.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Sun 16-01-22 18:31; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@halfhand, Possibly, and if so then I apologise to peanuthead for misinterpreting it. However, even on re-reading it still comes across in that way to to me, given also the bit about "keeping your speed up" which seems to suggest trying to complete the run as fast as possible.
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| Mr.Egg wrote: |
You would need to go fast as an adult to do serious injury to a 5yr old. |
E=1/2mv^2. Huge going slow is still a lot of energy...
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| Charliegolf wrote: |
| Mr.Egg wrote: |
You would need to go fast as an adult to do serious injury to a 5yr old. |
E=1/2mv^2. Huge going slow is still a lot of energy... |
I meant not very fast! Brain is quicker than the fingers
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sun 16-01-22 18:32; edited 1 time in total
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A real tragic situation.
We have all come across long snakes of classes and had to slow down and wait for an opportunity to pass safely. Often these groups are far too big, and can, effectively block the piste. We have all also seen idiots just straight lining through them.
But not in this case, It appears that the girl in question was at the back of a group of only 4, suggesting to me that the instructor had plenty of clear piste above him, even if he had just set off, or emerged from a junction.
The fact that they were also skiing down the side of the piste suggest to me that he was conducting the class correctly, and that there should have been plenty of room to pass safely if in control.
In this case, it was a local man. A case of thinking he knew the route well enough to ski above his ability?
Hopefully, they will make an example of this case, and , if necessary give extra powers to remove/cancel lift passes.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Mr.Egg, Gotcha.
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Very sad situation. My little fella is six next year, and I worry about Piste Safety.. I think kids usually have no option but to ski in line with school holidays (not the case in this awful accident) .During school holidays , we have packed pistes
Another factor is of course alcohol. I like a drink, but would not when skiing . One can imagine the damage a 12 stone plus man, can do if out of control.
May the little girl , rest in Peace
I think we also need Piste control officers, I would gladly pay more for a lift pass, if properly controlled. I have never seen someone ticked off for being reckless
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FAQ
The child was physically OK - I stopped to check with the highly upset mum.
