 Poster: A snowHead
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In Austria you are required to exchange contact details, although I never have when I have been skied into
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| PBJ wrote: |
| Always a good idea to take a photo of them … don’t expect authorities to be interested but you never know |
This.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@rjs, The NHS will cover all injuries what ever the circumstances!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I’m pretty sure that ski regulations require you to exchange details. Many years ago my son was involved in a “50/50” accidental collision, but the law does not seem to recognise such a concept. Details were exchanged and, some weeks later, my son was served with Austrian court papers back in the UK. The other skier was claiming £15,000 for damages (medical expenses and loss of earnings). The matter was settled out of court by the insurers, but caused much stress and anxiety. He was aged about 10 at the time. Since that incident I have always tried to avoid giving my details following any incidents on the slopes.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Under the FIS "code" Rule 10. Identification. "Every skier or snowboarder and witness, whether a responsible party or not, must exchange names and addresses following an accident". Whether or not it is a legal requirement depends on the country you are in. There was a case in Italy a few years back where a child was seriously injured in a hit and run ski accident. The perpatrator was eventually arrested after witness statements identified him by very specific jacket logos and he was filmed going through a Toll Station in the Aosta valley. If memory serves me right he served a jail sentance for causing bodily harm.
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@RedandWhiteFlachau, actually I think you made a good and subtle point. Where I said above that I've never bothered there was no injury other than to the culprits pride. If there was apparent or possible injury then I would and I believe that is indeed the requirement in Austria
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| Ionizingskin wrote: |
@hammerite oh well in that case  welcome to the real world internet ppl. If you’re on the slopes you’re taking a certain amount of risk of disaster scenarios happening. Again, just get on with it |
You also take "a certain amount of risk of disaster scenarios happening" whenever you get in a car but that doesn't mean that if someone recklessly endangers you resulting in a serious injury that they should not compensate you for their unacceptable behaviour.
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@jedster you seem lost. This is snowheads not petrolheads. If someone has bumped your car recently you should bring it up there instead of diverting the conversation to an unrelated scenario
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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If you are in a position to exchange details, then do so, but it isn't always possible in all circumstances. Even if you are with someone they may be more concerned about your well-being. A third party may not hang around. If the pisteurs take charge, and they are there, then perhaps they will do this? I suspect they'll be taking your details for the blood wagon bill.
However, my point was that it wasn't essential to do so for your insurance claim to be accepted.
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| Ionizingskin wrote: |
| @jedster you seem lost. This is snowheads not petrolheads. If someone has bumped your car recently you should bring it up there instead of diverting the conversation to an unrelated scenario |
His post was a perfectly valid comparison to your original post which displays a high level of ignorance about the actual rules and where liability sits when you are injured in a 'non fault*' incident. In all of Europe, if you are injured in a non fault incident, the person who was actually at fault can be sued, which in the OP scenario was the idiot hurtling down the slope. Normally the insurance company of the person at fault would pay, but if they don't have insurance, or not enough cover, then you can be personally liable.
*a non fault incident doesn't mean no-one was at fault, it means that you, as the injured party, weren't at fault.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Hells Bells, a couple of years ago we were at the bottom of the Bachas in Monetier and this idiot came flying into the queue and took my OH out, knocking her over, then he sort of looked down at proceeded to move away, with that I grabbed his arm, and he still pulled away so I had to slap him around the helmet to make him see the gravitas of the situation, it was a major case of handbags, plus he was younger and bigger than me so don't think I would have faired that well 
But by then other people were taking notice, and I wanted him to stay until Elaine was up and she confirmed no injuries.
I only acted like that as I'd heard about by a friend who was taken out in Morzine and the skiers did not stop, she ended up badly injured and had to foot quite a substantial bill.
I'm not too sure how it would have progressed if Elaine was injured but I'm pretty sure I could have got the lifties involved and details taken etc but could we have sued him, claimed off his insurance, if he even had any I don't know?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Weathercam, hubby was badly injured, but not in a position to take details. I still don't know how he got himself up with minimal assistance from one son and skied to the bottom. There was only an ESF snake passing via the blue track on the nasty bend towards the bottom of Aya. Instructor did shout as he passed apparently and asked if J was OK. Other guy was above him and got up and skied away. He doesn't remember if he even asked him if he was OK. I don't think either could have identified the other person again, and pisteurs weren't involved. Fortunately no big medical bills. Clinic fee at cabinet medical of 30€, and all the rest was dealt with by insurers and showing EHIC at hospital. Even the ambulance over the Lauteret to Grenoble spoke to insurer and arranged payment directly.
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Absolutely you should have taken details. I failed to take details after someone skied into me from behind at great speed on my second day some years ago. I thought, when I got to my feet after a while, that the twinge in my knee would get better and skied on down the piste to our restaurant. After lunch I decided to go back to the hotel. The next day I tried to ski off piste and had to give up after a few painful turns. The doctor told me off for trying, and immobilised the joint with a sleeve. That was me out for quite a few weeks.
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You know it makes sense.
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OP - how's the neck today?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@snowball, but in that situation, if you had taken details, what difference would it have made?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| David B wrote: |
| The NHS will cover all injuries what ever the circumstances! |
The victim in my case was one of my race trainees, she could walk about but wanted to get back to being able to do competitive sport. I'm just repeating what her mother told me.
For the OP, losing as little of the winter season as possible is probably important, being able to claim from the perp's insurance could help avoid this.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| pam w wrote: |
| @snowball, but in that situation, if you had taken details, what difference would it have made? |
My thoughts too. Surely the treatment is the same? It doesn't matter whose insurer is paying for it, yours or theirs. I guess you could claim for loss of earnings or a larger amount for physiotherapy perhaps? Hubby had emergency surgery in the same hospital, with the same surgeons as Michael Schumacher. Fortunately with a better outcome. All was covered by EHIC and insurers. It may be different in the USA of course.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@red 27, thanks for asking my neck has been fine thankfully.
My backside is pretty sore. It hurts to walk up hill, stand from crouching etc… I’ve also got some muscle pain down my side (same side as the impact with the ground). Overall though, I’m going to be fine in a day or two and importantly it didn’t stop me skiing all day today! I’ve been lucky I think.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@hammerite, 
Good news. Speaking from experience it's often in days 2 and 3 that you really start to feel it after a big crash.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@hammerite, well you’re having an adventure out there!
Sorry to hear about this, glad no major (obvious) damage done.
I never considered the legal or practical requirements of exchanging details so I wonder how it would be done. Season pass yes, day pass no. These days, vax certificate?? You have to show it 4x/day anyway!
I suppose this reinforces my need to say yes to ski pass insurance in future.
Re some comparisons to driving; that needs a licence that you get by passing a test. Skiing, no. Not sure it’s comparable. Actual bodily harm (intent or reckless) sounds more like it. But witnesses (who might speak one of six languages), and proof make that a near academic discussion.
Hope you don’t need more than ibuprofen and rest. Get well soon 
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Over the decades I have had a few collisions, luckily with no serious outcome. The majority have been on steep slopes with people falling above me then taking me out. We have checked to see each other was OK. I have never thought to exchange details. There have been times when I probably did not have pen or paper with me and so not had the means to do so - though these days with a phone I could make notes - and even exchange them directly phone to phone.
As these days I mostly ski at Les Deux Alpes, I have learnt where to be particularly vigilant - and there is one run (well two since they interleave) which I won't take in the evening since I think the risk of being taken out is too high (a knowledge that at my age bones break easily is a factor).
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Like @pam w says the whole swapping details thing hasn't made it across into French skiing that I have noticed.
I'm sure we've all been wiped out by other people with varying amounts of injury and associated cost.
Even when there is a bad injury and the pisteur / heli is used, I only seen them asking the other party about what happened so they can assess the situation from a medical angle. I do not know how often they would try and sue that other party - in a very gallic way it is just an accident.
By and large, the litigious Anglo-American view of "Somebody is to blame - and they MUST pay" hasn't got a lot of traction over here. Even to the extent that "no win - no fee" does not really exist here, because you must pay a bare minimum for the services of a lawyer, even if at some point down the road you hope to recover that cost.
Because people's ski insurance premiums in France tend not go go up even if you have made expensive claims, then if people do have an "accident" they tend to claim of their own insurance, and they are not penalised, and it is way easier than trying to claim off somebody elses' insurance.
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I got well and truly skittled in Meribel once by a totally out of control British guy...I never saw a thing he hit me a full speed (his full speed) from behind.
Lying there on the snow, winded and bruised he stood about 10 yards away
"You all right mate?"
"I'm not sure, I think so, give me a minute" I replied
His wife then said
"Quick! Let's get out of here before he gets up!"
And they did 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rungsp wrote: |
I got well and truly skittled in Meribel once by a totally out of control British guy...I never saw a thing he hit me a full speed (his full speed) from behind.
Lying there on the snow, winded and bruised he stood about 10 yards away
"You all right mate?"
"I'm not sure, I think so, give me a minute" I replied
His wife then said
"Quick! Let's get out of here before he gets up!"
And they did |
Same happened to my 70 year old FIL. A rather large British bloke careened into him at full tilt. Said bloke was looking back over his shoulder for a good 20/30 metres, presumably to look for his wife/kids/mates, just before impact. Sent my 5’6 FIL flying. He didn’t even stop to ask if he was ok.
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I've never heard of people exchanging details by default anywhere other than in the USA. I don't think this is an Alpine practice. And I think that if you did ask someone in the Alps, they'd probably not comply.
I also think that there are practical factors against exchanging: 1.Travel insurers don't require you to provide any 'other party' details, so why bother? They don't engage in cross-claims so what's the point? 2. There's no way you can force people to provide their details anyway - if they think it's not their fault, or don't care, why would they do so? 3. Even if you had enough skiers in your group to intimidate another party, what's to stop them from providing false details?
The only thing I vaguely recall is of the rare occasion when pisteurs and ski instructors have restrained someone who was conspicuously at fault of very serious negligence in an accident affecting a number of people, awaiting the arrival of the police. But I've only read of this happening a few times in all my years of skiing.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Mon 3-01-22 17:00; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@LaForet, in my experience, travel insurers do ask for all details relating to the claim, including any evidence of liability. As I said, the insured has a duty to mitigate loss. I'm surprised that you say, as a blanket generalisation, that they don't engage in cross-claims, although I have no personal experience. If they can, why wouldn't they? But of course, the risk of people providing false information remains.
That said, I've been skied into numerous times, and sustained minor injuries as a result. I've never bothered to ask for details in those circumstances. I think you have to exercise your judgment in each case. (Though of course, if it's a legal requirement in any country to exchange information, I guess it has to be done according to whatever the regulations are. I plead total ignorance on national requirements.)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| @LaForet, in my experience, travel insurers do ask for all details relating to the claim, including any evidence of liability. |
That's not been my experience with two serious accidents requiring heli-evac: there was no mention by either insurer of providing details of anyone else. But perhaps some insurers do seek to reclaim costs from other parties - in which case my blanket statement that they don't may be unreasonable. I know there's a liability concern for teachers supervising school groups where there' an accident: but that's a special case. For the USA, I am aware that the situation is different, with lift personnel being tasked with managing accidents in terms of liability and that skiers need to be aware that there's a different protocol in place for even minor accidents.
But I haven't skied in Austria, so as mentioned the law - or its application - is perhaps stricter there, compared to France and Switzerland. The example given puts me off skiing there if it's likely to end up with the sort of legal hounding described.
It'd be interesting to know which countries do apply an exchange rule and how strictly. When we skied in the States I know that there was always the litigious issue at the back of my mind. And from what's been said, it seems like Austria may be similar. Risk of litigation might certainly be a factor in choosing/avoiding a country if the chance was significantly lower/higher. Perhaps something like a SnowHeads 'Litigation Index' with the USA being 1.0, Austria being 0.5 and France 0.05, for example ?
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A few years ago Mrs 1g was taken out in Austria by a Russian lady, who did stop and we confirmed no obvious serious damage on either side and then skied on.
My wife's cheek took the impact (she made the mistake of looking back uphill when she heard the Russian approach) and the next day it swelled up into a nasty bruise. We went to the local hospital who x-rayed to confirm no broken bones and prescribed some medicine. Hospital asked for other party's details and tutted when we said we hadn't exchanged details. Don't know what the hospital would have done with the info if we had had it.
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You know it makes sense.
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@rungsp, @Timmycb5, awful behaviour.
@achilles, this was no steep slope, it wasn’t busy. This person had no reason to be so close to me when I was standing well out of the way of the piste on a piece of flat. If it was me skiing so fast on an empty piste I’d have looked ahead and been on the other side just in case. If it had been me standing in a dodgy position, a busy piste or just an innocent tumble then I could understand it. I completely understand the point of picking a time and a place of where to ski to reduce the chances of incidents. I’m just starting to get to know these areas well and I’ll be looking to do the same.
@Orange200, I came out here for an adventure (and I love it here so far), but part of that adventure was being able to ski the whole season, which for a few seconds at least, I started to doubt would be the case!
Maybe I need to read my insurance policy to find out if I should be collecting the other party’s details. If only it wasn’t in Catalan!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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The insurance company didn't ask for any details of the collision which broke my pelvis - not that it was a very expensive claim. Perhaps they know from experience that trying for any cross-claims in an Alpine setting will be a waste of time, given the standard of proof needed for any conclusive judgement about fault, let alone negligence. One of the nastiest injuries I'm aware of was to an Austrian woman standing right at the edge of the piste, wiping her 4 year old's nose. A hefty boy barreling down the piste in what he fondly imagined was a racing tuck position (we've all seen them), with a helmet, skied into the side of her knee, which was never the same again, despite operations from top Austrian surgeons. And when @Hurtle and I were with a skier who had a collision which (it turned out) had broken her arm, there was no exchange of details and no further discussion about who might have been at fault. There are often signs about the "rules of the road" around resorts - and adverts for Carré and Carte Neige and I've never seen any suggestion that exchanging details is required or expected.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I'm not sure that anecdotes of it not being done, or of some insurance companies not asking for details, prove that it shouldn't be done where possible and appropriate.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Brings to mind the only collision I've suffered in 40yrs of skiing. Also, unsurprisingly, involving a complete idiot skiing way beyond his capability on a toughish mogul run. I had slowed to catch my breath only to hear a cry above me, and on turning to look, saw a guy barrelling straight toward me. Fortunately the moguls proved my friend, slowed him down a lot and pitched him over. He ended up sliding face first into my 4 buckle boot - large patch of red snow ensued - luckily, lesson learned in this case!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
I'm not sure that anecdotes of it not being done, or of some insurance companies not asking for details, prove that it shouldn't be done where possible and appropriate.
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Well in the absence of any more formal evidence, the anecdotes suggest that it is not part of the "acquis" amongst a good many quite experienced European skiers.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
I'm not sure that anecdotes of it not being done, or of some insurance companies not asking for details, prove that it shouldn't be done where possible and appropriate.
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Well in the absence of any more formal evidence, the anecdotes suggest that it is not part of the "acquis" amongst a good many quite experienced European skiers. |
Possibly, but we've already heard that one insurance company asked questions (I was questioned closely about the possible perpetrator by my bil's insurers) and that in Austria, according to hlxx, it's obligatory to exchange details. What is certain is that there isn't a blanket answer to this question, which is why I have suggested that, if in doubt - and there is doubt (except in the US where it's allegedly certain, I have no experience) - it's wise to do so if possible and if the injury is more than insignificant. Put this view down to ingrained training...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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The worldwide applicable FIS alpine skiing rules require, under Rule 10, those involved in accidents, and witnesses, to exchange details. Also worth taking a photo of the other parties. Countless stories of “runners” being traced via CCTV at lift stations and by lift passes.
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Whilst I've been "taken out" a few times, I'm lucky not to have been involved in any serious collisions, so hadn't really though about this situation, but have seen a few. I don't think I've ever seen anybody exchange details, other than a few expletives.
Would it make any difference to an insurance claim if you did?
Maybe the recent Italian laws requiring 3rd party insurance are connected, or is that just so that the authorities can claim the costs of recovering you from your insurers?
I think if the other party was obviously drunk, and a potential danger to others, then it should be reported, but other than that, do the authorities take any notice?
I've not actually bought my own lift pass for many years. Do any countries require evidence of id? Do they require a photo?
(admin sometimes asks for photos on profiles for bashes).
| hammerite wrote: |
| [b] how do you determine there and then that you are 100% ok? |
This is always the problem. A few years ago, I somersaulted over my bike handlebars when my back wheel got caught in a tram track. The motorist behind, and some passers by stopped to check if I was OK, and I thought I was. 15 minutes later, I got a sharp pain in my elbow, which quickly got to the point that I could no longer ride, and had to push the bike 2 miles back to my car. Turned out I'd cracked my humerus. And, no it wasn't remotely funny.
hope it's just bruising and you recover quickly, but keep an eye on that neck, and get a scan if it doesn't improve in a couple of days.
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@brianatab, he's probably OK..it was Jan 2022
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| brianatab wrote: |
| ... I've not actually bought my own lift pass for many years. Do any countries require evidence of id? Do they require a photo?.. |
Vail Resorts do in Whistler, for daily tickets at least. So a US photo ID card will work, or a credit card. I think the reason is that they can tell if you're fraudulently swapping tickets around, rather than for litigation purposes.
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Further to @Hells Bells and @Hurtle comment, I have seen a skier on a wide open piste knock over a small child skiing with its mother - and just ski off - clearly reprehensible. However, in @hammerite's circumstances, I would have not have requested an exchange of notes.
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