 Poster: A snowHead
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Thanks. I think the danger of believing that it helps whilst not actually knowing whether it's a true physiological benefit or not is that it might cause you to push harder than you otherwise would, perhaps making accident/injury more likely. I know, for example, that I ski/snowboard faster and harder when wearing a helmet and bodyarmour than when I am not, because I believe they offer protection.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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A good while back our resident expert - Jonathon Bell, provided a good explanation of how the neoprene (cheapy) knee supports can be very beneficial with damaged knees. I won’t explain it anywhere near as well as him but the explanation goes along the lines of - where you have damage within your knee the signals that normally occur can’t, but the brain can use the feedback it gets from the compression bandage to fully understand where your knee it etc.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Interesting. I'd be curious to learn more about that. I'll search out his post. I'd still like to try and settle the question 'can a rigid knee brace protect your knee in the event of an accident or incident that tries to twist it or force it in a direction that it doesn't want to go. If so then how much'.
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@greengriff,
Here’s a quote....
‘Neoprene knee sleeves almost certainly work by reinforcing proprioception.
Proprioception is the subconscious processing of information from sensors in your knee and leg.
It’s basically a feedback system that helps your brain coordinate movements.
The sensors are found in muscle/ligaments and other tissues.
If your proprioception is reduced then a knee sleeve (about £30) rubs a little on the skin and
the brain picks this up and uses the information to supplement the information is it able to get - thus enhancing it.
So, knees with reduced proprioception like those that have had ligament injury or have osteoarthritis can
feel more secure and perform better from the point of view of proprioception.
Very expensive braces will also enhance proprioception but probably not that much different to your cheap knee sleeve.’
Jonathan Bell
My personal experience is that a medium priced neoprene support helps reduce concern about and pain from a damaged meniscus. Never tried an expensive heavy duty hinged support.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@PeakyB, thanks for finding that!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Very interesting. Thank you!
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Both ACLs out (told full ruptures) 3.5 years ago, both MCLs bad tears, suspect some other damage at same time or subsequent (meniscal wear & tear at the least). Still painful, but still holding me up, if tiring muscles easily (no surgery).
Agree with the comments about wrap-arounds giving you feel & confidence. Also keep things warm, & allow all-round support. I tried the expensive ACL hinged braces as per the OP, just seemed to offer no support or feeling of support at all - and that's what I needed. Also felt cumbersome, and too long for me, and hated the external frame idea. Donjoy do lesser models, might have tried them if I could have found a stockist (which I couldn't) to examine and try on first.
Agree also with what someone earlier said: proper rest, proper rehab, lots of leg strength, and time...
We are all busy discussing ACL supports, and the OP referred to LCL of course! LCL should heal, shouldn't it? Therefore just some protection and reminder not to overdo it (watch the spins and kicks!)
My main problems present as lateral fib head area pain, and I find an elasticated strap wrapped around the area to be as helpful as anything for general sports & walking/hiking use. For skiing, it's just the confidence feel of having a nice wrap-around thing, tightened up with 2 crossed straps below and above (with spring, not hinged sides, sold by Boots about £25 ea). Mr G bought something similar (no side springs or hinges) but much cheaper off EBay in summer for his very buggered knees for hiking & boarding, finds them very helpful. Straps crossing behind the knee can be very annoying, so choose design accordingly.
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Yes it's my LCL. Any twisting on the knee is intolerable at the moment, and since those rotational forces are very much part of skiing I suddenly became very interested in ways to mitigate them. I just cannot see how the velcro straps of a brace can stop the leg from twisting inside them.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@greengriff, I think you're right on pure rotational movements. The frame braces will help with weird lateral forces while the joint is rotated.
Before I blew out my ACL, I tore my MCL (that was a bad year for my knees!). I probably skied on it far too early but a brace did help a bit. I still had to ski pretty carefully and be especially careful not to get into a situation where my knee was rotating too much
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Hearing everybody's tales of woe makes me feel lucky that I've only partially torn my LCL. I'm curious as to how these serious injuries occurred? Maybe there's a common set of circumstances to them? (Incorrectly set bindings, a certain kind of terrain, other people's errors etc.)? I was told by a French instructor once that the majority of knee injuries happen at very slow speeds when people mess up getting off the lift, because the 'slow' nature of the fall means that the bindings don't release. I have no idea how true that is but since then I always make the effort to get away from the immediate lift area right away.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| greengriff wrote: |
| Hearing everybody's tales of woe makes me feel lucky that I've only partially torn my LCL. I'm curious as to how these serious injuries occurred? Maybe there's a common set of circumstances to them? (Incorrectly set bindings, a certain kind of terrain, other people's errors etc.)? I was told by a French instructor once that the majority of knee injuries happen at very slow speeds when people mess up getting off the lift, because the 'slow' nature of the fall means that the bindings don't release. I have no idea how true that is but since then I always make the effort to get away from the immediate lift area right away. |
My case - my original ACL rupture was just a silly fall, last run back on last day but ski didn’t twist off. However the subsequent damage to the reconstruction was 8 yrs or so later, while playing hockey. We ended up playing a match during training time - I would normally wear the knee support for matches but not training, my weight just came down wrong when I stopped and tried to change direction.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| greengriff wrote: |
| I'm curious as to how these serious injuries occurred? |
Mine was ridiculous and mirrors your slow injury comment from the French instructor - was setting off from the side of the piste by the boot room at the Oxalys at the EoSB, a few of us with some kids, I was faffing put my hands in my pole straps while turning round to make sure some of said kids were following, iirc its a blue piste, caught an edge but rebalanced only to realise I couldn't put any pressure on my left leg so literally had to come to gliding halt a bit further down without turning or anything. Didn't even fall. What I had done is hyper extended my knee, the top of my leg sliding back over the knee so it clipped the corner of my tibial plateau fracturing it, torn the ACL and also either the MCL or LCL (I forget which). Not bad enough for surgery tears but was on crutches for about 10 weeks and had a lot of physio. One long term but unexpected side effect was my driving - we live in the London suburbs so the clutch got a lot of stop start use when driving anywhere and twice my seized holding the clutch in traffic so badly I thought I would crash, we "needed" a new car as our was 10 years old so we replaced it with an automatic. I've had several skiing holidays since and it's been fine, although I don't think I ski as agressively as I used to but that could just be ageing!
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Thu 10-12-20 22:47; edited 1 time in total
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It was not a skiing accident that ruptured mine but a motorcycle trial. I came to the top of very steep muddy bank and put my leg down to steady myself before the drop (I know you are not supposed to do that, but I'd take a dab over a fall and a 5 any day). The leg shot sideways from the knee and I fell down the bank with the bike following me. At the bottom I discovered I couldn't sand on that leg - it kept bending the wrong way. Unusually the trial was near home so I got a friend to start the bike for me, climbed aboard and rode home. My wife took me to A&E but they did nothing. I cannot remember why.
It took me a couple years to persuade my doctor that legs shouldn't bend that way and to refer me to an orthopedic surgeon. It was those evil days when GPs were fund holders and tried to ration the treatment they gave to patients. Eventually it was operated on in a tiny hospital that seemed to be full of gymnasts. The surgeon was the British Gymnastics orthopedic specialist. After rehap it has functioned well. I am really glad I had the op.
I think my GP understands me better now after a few years later he send for an NMR scan on the same knee following another injury. The report came back with seven different things wrong with the knee. It is the oestoarthritis that bothers most these days.
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You know it makes sense.
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I've done loads of crazy cartwheeling falls and wipe outs over the years, skis and board, fast and slow: all fine. Then some high speed out of control idiot hit me (right at the start of a run, me still slow) from diagonal behind and sent me into an aerial somersault which I landed on my front and went sliding down the hill, legs dragging. One binding released, one didn't. Both knees pretty equally injured.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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My ex partner snapped her ACL on her right knee by a fall in Madonna in 2019 along with this she broke a bone there too...when we got to the uk we went to the recommended orthopedic surgeon ( and got other advice ) who said wait as he decided no surgery ..anyway by the end of 2019 she was walking well with little pain and in order to ski she bought expensive knee brace (about £500 Ossur. I think) and managed to ski quite comfortably in San Vigilio this year
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Poster: A snowHead
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Thank you everyone. I know it was a (very) small sample but there seems to be no commonality between the causes of knee injuries.
Anecdotally (and slightly off topic) I feel much safer on a snowboard (with both knees effectively locked together on the board and therefore unable to twist in odd directions without simply rotating the whole body along with them) than I do on skis, although I prefer to ski rather than board these days for a number of other reasons.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@greengriff, my MCL was mostly down to a poorly adjusted (by me) binding so the ski did not release
ACL was actually due to a binding popping off when it shouldn't have done in moguls. The ski came off then my boot go caught in some loose snow and the impact/twisting was enough to snap the ACL. It all happened quickly but that's my recollection. Pretty innocuous really. I suspect I may have damaged the ACL previously and this was just the little tweak needed to finish the job. My understanding is that you don't need a lot of force to snap the ACL but it needs to be applied in a very specific way - hence comments about not getting in the back seat and muscling your skis around
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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That's some bad luck there 
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@greengriff, it was at the end of the season so could have been worse 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| greengriff wrote: |
Thank you everyone. I know it was a (very) small sample but there seems to be no commonality between the causes of knee injuries.
Anecdotally (and slightly off topic) I feel much safer on a snowboard (with both knees effectively locked together on the board and therefore unable to twist in odd directions without simply rotating the whole body along with them) than I do on skis, although I prefer to ski rather than board these days for a number of other reasons. |
I have heard it said you are less likely to rupture your ACL snowboarding. Though while I was going through my Recon I was on Kneeguru forum, and there was a snowboarder who had ruptured his. Apparently this was unusual and involved a tree...
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@arno Yep! You're clearly a 'glass half full' kind of a person  I'll bet there are people who've buggered theirs on day 1 though.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Fri 11-12-20 10:57; edited 1 time in total
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| NickyJ wrote: |
I have heard it said you are less likely to rupture your ACL snowboarding. Though while I was going through my Recon I was on Kneeguru forum, and there was a snowboarder who had ruptured his. Apparently this was unusual and involved a tree... |
On the flip side, broken backs seem to be more common in boarding. You pays your money you takes your choice etc...
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Knees (and their connected bits and problems) are very individual things. Mr G has very buggered knees (undiagnosed - far too many bike crashes years ago) and never could cope with skiing but boards fine. I do both, but after my knee injuries find boarding much more painful and a lot more scary as regards reinjury.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Grizzler wrote: |
| but after my knee injuries find boarding much more painful and a lot more scary as regards reinjury. |
Out of curiosity, in what way(s) is boarding more painful for you? Impact through the joints on bumpy terrain? Flexing and extending? Etc...
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| Grizzler wrote: |
| Knees (and their connected bits and problems) are very individual things. Mr G has very buggered knees (undiagnosed - far too many bike crashes years ago) and never could cope with skiing but boards fine. I do both, but after my knee injuries find boarding much more painful and a lot more scary as regards reinjury. |
Well, your knees need to be protected before you injure them. I am a supporter of quality knee pads and elbow pads. And in general, you need to try to minimize injuries by doing an active sport. Health comes first.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I agree. A good helmet and body armour might make the difference between finishing your holiday on your feet or finishing it in hospital. It certainly has for me on more than one occasion over the years.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Challenger007 Believe me, when on a snowboard, or a motorbike, everything possible is impact padded. Often twice. 
But neoprene sleeves, even huge full braces, won't prevent serious injuries like ligament tears and ruptures, fractures, meniscal damage, etc (I'll bow to a proper medical expert, but I suspect that they'll confirm this). Some believe that they even transfer damage e.g. instead of tearing a knee ligament, you bust your femur. My Ortho consultant was very against braces (more than a wrap around sleeve) for me, even with 2 ligament damaged knees.
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I am apart of the ACL club too. As well as two current, chronic meniscal tears.
Neoprene sleeves have helped massively. I feel more stable. Sortve the same feeling when I squat or leg press.
And like previous posts say you can get a good pair for £30. I use a brand called Rock Tape.
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You know it makes sense.
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Thanks. I've actually ordered the Mueller Hinged HG80. They were a reasonable price on Amazon and well-reviewed, so I though I'd give them a go.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
I agree. A good helmet and body armour might make the difference between finishing your holiday on your feet or finishing it in hospital. It certainly has for me on more than one occasion over the years.
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That must have been an interesting experiment - some trips on the placebo eg fake body armour or helmet and others with the real stuff. Then counting up how many times you end up in hospital.
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Poster: A snowHead
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It was somewhat less scientific than that and involved crashing repeatedly in similar circumstances (something you do when learning to snowboard), originally without protective gear and then with it, and comparing the results.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Conclusion of experiment: get skis 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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What kind of injury was it and how did the brace help with it?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Firstly, I have to confess that I do some work for the Ski Mojo, but it's only because of that that I know how evangelical their customer base is. They really do love it. Have a scroll through this page - https://www.skimojo.com/reviews/
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I don't need the assistance that it offers unfortunately. Maybe in 20 years.
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@greengriff, following with interest as just had knee arthroscopy (trimmed meniscus) - could you update on progress please / thoughts on the Mueller knee support.
And just to add - been skiing for 10 years + now with a friend who wears a mojo - simply put, it made a huge difference to him, meaning he could spend most of the day skiing with us.
Many thanks
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Believe it or not Amazon lost the Muellers and are having to send me another set, so I've yet to try them. Although at the moment it looks like the best test they will get in the near future is a couple of runs down the slope at the Snozone
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@greengriff, I know - not looking promising at all is it - I'm still hanging onto the hope of a trip late March.
I'll keep a regular eye on this post - any info greatly appreciated.
Have a good Christmas.
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