 Poster: A snowHead
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| snowdave wrote: |
My wife’s carving improved immensely on slalom skis vs GS. I can see a logic for why less grabby skis should be easier to learn on, but I think for early stage carving, the advantage of an SL is that it’s very obvious to the user when the edges engage whereas the more progressive engagement of a GS ski is a little harder to detect at lower levels. My wife much prefers her SL vs GS skis for piste skiing. |
Well, I guess there's an element of horses for courses but there's also an element of experience. At the risk of sounding sexist, I think lady skiers are often more controlled and more technically correct than their similarly experienced male counterparts so a tighter turning slalom ski suits their natural turn shape better in the first place. The more gung-ho, straight-down-the-hill macho type isn't going to gravitate towards a ski that is unstable when flat. Hence why you see so many out of control male punters on skis that are clearly wider than their skillset.
I'm doing this from memory so someone can correct me but as I recall, when BASI give out recommended specs for skis at different levels, the recommended spec for L2 (medium/long carved turns) is usually around 72mm with a turn radius c15m. The spec for L3 (medium/short carved turns) is usually around 67mm and c13m. So a full on (or even a recreational/detuned) slalom ski is clearly considered a skill level above. Add to that the fact that the OP says he wants a hard-charging all-mountain ski and is 6'5" and 17st and for me a slalom ski doesn't add up. I've got a pair of Head Magnums at 13m and I would never ever take them out over my MX83s for recreational use, they're just a backup/teaching ski. But I learnt to carve on the original Rossi 9X Pro 10.2 at 64mm in a 184cm with a 21m turn radius; so maybe the turn shape of that ski has become my default style.
When I look back, the Rossis were excellent for teaching me to carve but I think they held me back considerably on the more variable aspects of skiing, particularly bumps. Therefore, I tend not to recommend specialist skis to people unless it's part of a quiver and will be used for specialist training. I'd hate to think that the OP goes out for the day on his slalom skis, sees a bit of off-piste and thinks, "I don't fancy that on these..."
The OP doesn't mention his experience level (weeks on snow) so it's difficult to say from the UCPA "advanced" description where he really is. UCPA website says:
4. ADVANCED/CONFIRMÉ
You can ski confidently on any kind of slope of the ski area, even if you feel a bit less at ease on difficult slopes (moguls, ice, powder). You can carve effectively on groomed pistes, however your technique is not so consistent with steep or bumpy slopes during challenging snow conditions. You can adjust your technique and mix short and long radius turns when required. You spend time in the side country perfecting off piste technique.
From what he's said elsewhere I suspect he's a comfortable advanced level off-piste but doesn't actually meet the on piste description above. I prefer weeks on snow as an indicator of (potential) ability. If he's 60+ weeks or multiple seasons he should stop under-selling himself, buy some slalom skis and get on with it. If he's 20-40 weeks (or less) I'd recommend the AM ski as a better all round development tool.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'd just point out a downside of SL skis. You turn a lot because it's what they are designed to do and the grip can be quite intoxicating. But it does mean you do at least twice the number of turns as mates who are just punting around so a full day can be quite tiring. Even Ms Shiffrin only does a few hours on them at a time.
That plus a proper SL ski is a bitch in moguls. I'd rather be on my Shiros than my FIS SLs in a proper mogul field.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Sun 9-08-20 10:29; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| @Raceplate, Interesting - so they are going back to the MX 83 - which I assume replaces the 84? |
Yes. MX84 got good very reviews but never the stellar reviews that the MX83 used to get. I am delighted! I had no idea what I was going to do when my MX83s finally die. I have been very conservative in servicing them to make them last as long as possible because I've just never been on anything else like them.
When I originally tested them against some other skis (including the MX88), I had Ski Tracks on. According to ST, I was skiing my home slope back to La Tania 20km/h faster than I'd ever skied it before, without even realising. It just felt natural. They're proper old school - full camber, no early rise, 20m turn radius and two layers of metal. Very damp but they don't bite if you do something stupid, they just reassure.
The 2021 specs are much the same with a slightly lighter tip, (I think) a fraction of early rise and a 3mm wider tail for a slightly reduced turn radius - the reference 175cm is 16.3m. They're also in a much more accessible length selection 154, 161, 168, 175, 182. If I have one criticism of the previous generation, it is that you need to change edge way above the fall line in quagmire snow and then let them take their natural radius. However, if you do change edge right at the top of the turn, they're very flattering and they have the beef to just push the snow out of the way. The changes for 2021 should make them a little friendlier in those (admittedly rather rare) conditions.
They are a superb ski for both rewarding and encouraging good technique but they won't kill you whilst you practise. I've always liked skieur.com's comments and opinions who simply say (translated), "Explosive and versatile, the MX 83 from Kästle is a legendary all-mountain ski, which rhymes with stability and edge grip."
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| Raceplate wrote: |
| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| @Raceplate, Interesting - so they are going back to the MX 83 - which I assume replaces the 84? |
Yes. MX84 got good very reviews but never the stellar reviews that the MX83 used to get. I am delighted! I had no idea what I was going to do when my MX83s finally die. I have been very conservative in servicing them to make them last as long as possible because I've just never been on anything else like them.
When I originally tested them against some other skis (including the MX88), I had Ski Tracks on. According to ST, I was skiing my home slope back to La Tania 20km/h faster than I'd ever skied it before, without even realising. It just felt natural. They're proper old school - full camber, no early rise, 20m turn radius and two layers of metal. Very damp but they don't bite if you do something stupid, they just reassure.
The 2021 specs are much the same with a slightly lighter tip, (I think) a fraction of early rise and a 3mm wider tail for a slightly reduced turn radius - the reference 175cm is 16.3m. They're also in a much more accessible length selection 154, 161, 168, 175, 182. If I have one criticism of the previous generation, it is that you need to change edge way above the fall line in quagmire snow and then let them take their natural radius. However, if you do change edge right at the top of the turn, they're very flattering and they have the beef to just push the snow out of the way. The changes for 2021 should make them a little friendlier in those (admittedly rather rare) conditions.
They are a superb ski for both rewarding and encouraging good technique but they won't kill you whilst you practise. I've always liked skieur.com's comments and opinions who simply say (translated), "Explosive and versatile, the MX 83 from Kästle is a legendary all-mountain ski, which rhymes with stability and edge grip." |
You make a good case for the MX83. The original version sounds like it might be a handful to learn carving on and take Off Piste (rather than enjoy once you've got skills); whereas the new version should make life easier - though I could be wrong.
I am very intrigued by the Elan Wingman CTi. This is a ski that ProskiLab reckoned was the best All Mountain ski in 19/20. It is genuinely unique with its asymmetric design, where you have Left and Right skis. It appears to make working both skis together, easier. I find I ski best, when I manage to properly work the inside ski - and this design should make life easier.
It has Titanal for strength and Carbon for lightness. According to the feedback from pretty much all who have tested it, it pulls off the neat trick of being damp, stable, lively, and playful, all at the same time. Somehow, the design queues from the well received Ripstick, allows it to handle Off Piste better than a Ski with an 86 wait should; and the elements from the Amphibio make it a decent tool for carving On Piste. I think it is a ski that the OP should seriously consider trying.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hi,
a good and perfectly reasonable to question to which there is no reasonable or perfect answer. Sadly.
Not that long ago a waist over 74mm was off piste!
You are a big lad and have some monster off piste skis. When you ski on piste do you carve? Have you got video? Getting on edge is tricky and I'm not sure that you are making things easy.
What about renting? Especially if you don't ski much more than a couple of weeks a year. You could adjust what you take to the conditions and have the Whitedots for deep days.
I have Ranger Carbonlite 98s- the same as the Rond. They are excellent all over and I can carve tele turns on them nicely. They are forgiving and will go quite quickly if need be. But I can carve them ONLY because I have had some really excellent tuition.
I really like having a light ski- heavy skis make me even more exhausted.
But I think that your money might be better spent on tuition than on skis- as with the right techniques you will be able to ski anything anywhere.
I strongly agree about the problems of getting too stiff a ski. I had a nightmare testing some Movement demon Flames about 14 years ago- fantastic for me on piste- but threw me everywhere off piste (I also think that the DIN might have been set too low as loads of prereleases).
For what it's worth I'd think;
80-90mm.
Stiffness to match weight / skill- and this will be difficult as when you get better you will need a stiffer ski to carve faster- I don't think that you have a 1 ski solution to improve on.
But mostly I'd ignore the ski and concentrate on the skills.
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Kaestle Fx95 and since you are 6'5" and 17 stone het the HP.
I have these in 181 (I think) and they are a brilliant ski. I'm 13st and 5'9"
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| Quote: |
a proper SL ski is a bitch in moguls
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Drifting the thread a bit, I found this as well, which rather surprised me. I think it's because they have such grip that when you're trying to bleed speed off on the downhill side, they just want to stick.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| GlasgowCyclops wrote: |
Kaestle Fx95 and since you are 6'5" and 17 stone het the HP.
I have these in 181 (I think) and they are a brilliant ski. I'm 13st and 5'9" |
They're a dead ski and the FX96 that replaced them doesn't get anything like the same level of love in reviews because they took the metal out.
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
I am very intrigued by the Elan Wingman CTi. This is a ski that ProskiLab reckoned was the best All Mountain ski in 19/20. It is genuinely unique with its asymmetric design, where you have Left and Right skis. It appears to make working both skis together, easier. I find I ski best, when I manage to properly work the inside ski - and this design should make life easier.
It has Titanal for strength and Carbon for lightness. According to the feedback from pretty much all who have tested it, it pulls off the neat trick of being damp, stable, lively, and playful, all at the same time. Somehow, the design queues from the well received Ripstick, allows it to handle Off Piste better than a Ski with an 86 wait should; and the elements from the Amphibio make it a decent tool for carving On Piste. I think it is a ski that the OP should seriously consider trying. |
Elan have had a good rep for some innovative skis for a while now but rather like Kastle they're pretty hard to find to demo. I seem to remember trying the original amphibios when they came out but they didn't blow me away the way the MX83s did. The asymetric bit has never sat comfortably with me. I remember Rossi 9S slalom skis being asymmetric which seems ok if you're going to tune them before every race/practice session because you'd do that anyway on a race ski but in a recreational ski I'm sure it would rack me off.
Pick up your freshly serviced skis early season, trash the inside edge of the outside ski on some early season stones and, er, take them straight back for another service. Would wind me up no end and it must shorten the life of the ski. OK if you're a seasonnaire and you're going to chuck them anyway at the end of the season if they've been serviced every week but seems a bit harsh on the average joe.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| I find I ski best, when I manage to properly work the inside ski - and this design should make life easier. |
Slightly off the subject but using the inside ski is definitely an advanced technique and to be commended. It's fashionable to talk about being "stacked" but IMO they're the same thing - being stacked is just a different expression for putting your hips in a position where the inside ski is used more.
There's a highly respected full cert independent French instructor in LT whose favourite expression seems to be, "First you move ze hips". Took me a while to work it out but it's basically the same thing - aligning the hips makes you much more two footed when carving and it does feels more stable at moderate speeds. I still revert to type with 100% pressure on the outside ski at higher speeds though... 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Raceplate wrote: |
| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| I find I ski best, when I manage to properly work the inside ski - and this design should make life easier. |
Slightly off the subject but using the inside ski is definitely an advanced technique and to be commended. It's fashionable to talk about being "stacked" but IMO they're the same thing - being stacked is just a different expression for putting your hips in a position where the inside ski is used more.
There's a highly respected full cert independent French instructor in LT whose favourite expression seems to be, "First you move ze hips". Took me a while to work it out but it's basically the same thing - aligning the hips makes you much more two footed when carving and it does feels more stable at moderate speeds. I still revert to type with 100% pressure on the outside ski at higher speeds though... |
Lady F skied with a pronounced A Frame for years. Due to her Q angle (I think), this could only be corrected with alignment. When this was done, she spent the first day being left behind in turns, as for the first time in her life, she had both skis changing edges at the same time and by the same amount, thus accelerating round the turn - as opposed to the old outside ski tripping her up. It's like going into 4 wheel drive, with 4 wheel steer. Watching skiers like Darren Turner and Warren Smith, highlights how the uphill ski should be activated.
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Thanks everyone: a lot going on here. I think most of the ski firms offer kit rental for the season so I might try that initially: I don't know. Something sub-£500 with bindings is what I want really as then, as someone has suggested, I can put more money towards lessons. I was thinking of two one-hour private lessons per week? A brief look at prices has ESF asking for 260 euros minimum for five one-hour lessons. I'm sure somewhere will jump at the offer of two hours per week, every week all through the season.
@ed123, yes the Preacher is a lot of ski and may explain why I'm always so bloody tired at the end of the day!
I've got 21 weeks of experience skiing, pretty much all of it guided/instructed, often through UCPA. I've begun to work out how to carve but mostly by accident: on icy patches finding out that getting my edges over before the fall line prevented me from falling. Until then I was mostly letting my skis come around to the fall-line under their own steam by coming off the edges.
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You know it makes sense.
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At 21 weeks and about to do a season with plenty of instruction, you should be able to comfortably get to around BASI L2 level of skiing by the end of it. I would go with a low 70's waist ski to get the most out of the instruction. Learn the correct technique on the correct tool and then decide what width of AM ski suits you best later on in the season through a few demo days.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Coming at this a bit late but I'd agree with those folks who are saying that you should go mid 80s max. I'd also say that you should go 16m radius max (perhaps 18m).
For the purpose you describe you want a ski that you can carve in a wide variety of conditions. In general, longer radius skis need more space and/or speed to carve safely which will reduce your opportunities. In my experience, wider skis (even if quite shaped) need softer snow in order to commit to high edge angles (the wider the ski, the harder the transition from one edge to the other and it can be really quite delicate if the piste has little "give"). To improve your piste technique you will want to be getting your skis to high edge angles as often as possible.
Other people will have (and have above) new model recommendations. The benchmark here used to be Head Supershape Magnum or Titan (although I've never skied them).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Raceplate, hmm... that's a good suggestion and at a good price too, thanks. Do you know if those bindings will be OK with hybrid boots? Mine are the Tecnica Cochise.
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@boobleblooble, Cochise boots have alpine soles so no problem.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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From what I’ve read the Speedzone 12 and 14 is the same ski, just the 14 has a raceplate and the 12 has a standard rail system.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Themasterpiece wrote: |
From what I’ve read the Speedzone 12 and 14 is the same ski, just the 14 has a raceplate and the 12 has a standard rail system. |
That is correct.....but I can't comment on the degree of difference the R22 raceplate makes.
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| Themasterpiece wrote: |
From what I’ve read the Speedzone 12 and 14 is the same ski, just the 14 has a raceplate and the 12 has a standard rail system. |
That is correct.....but I can't comment on the degree of difference the R22 raceplate makes. |
Fair enough. I read a review which said the 12 was a bit flappy under hard acceleration and not as lively and responsive as you would expect but I suspect the tester was a top drawer skier really pushing it. I've seen other reviews saying it's a terrifically stable ski. None of the reviews for the 14 seem to have the same criticism though, they all say the 14 is very lively and responsive and easy to vary the turn radius through subtle pressure changes. So that's the effect of the raceplate. On a mountain, I would expect the basic difference to be that the R22 SZ14 is a better carver and stronger on hardpack, the SZ 12 would be more versatile and forgiving in bumps and off-piste.
Everything's a compromise in skiing, no one ski will do everything. The OP's a big lad going out for a season. I would still be inclined to take the higher level ski knowing that I may need to grow into it a bit at the beginning of the season but happy in the knowledge that I won't have already grown out of it by the end of the season. This thread backs up that it's a good ski for a bigger skier https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=3010405
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| Raceplate wrote: |
Fair enough. I read a review which said the 12 was a bit flappy under hard acceleration and not as lively and responsive as you would expect but I suspect the tester was a top drawer skier really pushing it. I've seen other reviews saying it's a terrifically stable ski. None of the reviews for the 14 seem to have the same criticism though, they all say the 14 is very lively and responsive and easy to vary the turn radius through subtle pressure changes. So that's the effect of the raceplate. On a mountain, I would expect the basic difference to be that the R22 SZ14 is a better carver and stronger on hardpack, the SZ 12 would be more versatile and forgiving in bumps and off-piste.
Everything's a compromise in skiing, no one ski will do everything. The OP's a big lad going out for a season. I would still be inclined to take the higher level ski knowing that I may need to grow into it a bit at the beginning of the season but happy in the knowledge that I won't have already grown out of it by the end of the season. This thread backs up that it's a good ski for a bigger skier https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=3010405 |
When the 12Ti first came out, it had an Active wood core and was very well received. Then in 18/19 they revised it using the Active Air Core, which made it noticeably lighter. After that, the reviews weren't quite as good - and I know Proskilab put this down as a potential reason why it slipped down their rankings. It also may explain why the reviews differ. The Raceplate may help offset any deficiencies.
I could of course be totally wrong. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
When the 12Ti first came out, it had an Active wood core and was very well received. Then in 18/19 they revised it using the Active Air Core, which made it noticeably lighter. After that, the reviews weren't quite as good - and I know Proskilab put this down as a potential reason why it slipped down their rankings. It also may explain why the reviews differ. The Raceplate may help offset any deficiencies.
I could of course be totally wrong. |
But seriously, that's it then. The 14s are still listed as an Active Wood Core so they must be the previous construction. They're also discontinued now so may have been a way of using up what was left of the previous production run. Should clearly be the better ski of the two available.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Raceplate wrote: |
| The 14s are still listed as an Active Wood Core so they must be the previous construction. They're also discontinued now so may have been a way of using up what was left of the previous production run. Should clearly be the better ski of the two available. |
The 12Tis in my link also have the Active Wood Core and are from the year that they were awarded Best Performance Piste Ski by Proskilab. The following year, they dropped down to the Piste Cruisers section and were "also ran". They are now (19/20) at least back in the Performance category - but not as versatile with turn radius as the originals.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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If you are doing a season my best advice would be to stop the agonizing. Buy something cheap and cheerful that does the job and be ready to flog em when you find an irrestible deal on your perfect partner. Lots of opportunities for quiver enhancement come your way during a season ( I "accidentally" bought a pair of skis on a day I didn't even have my ski boots with me)
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@jedster, thanks. What do others think of the Heads?
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You know it makes sense.
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| boobleblooble wrote: |
| @jedster, thanks. What do others think of the Heads? |
The Titan is a great choice - though not quite as stable as the 14 Ti, but with a tighter turn radius. Great tool for learning carving and has a slightly wider waist @81mm (177). IIRC It is one of the stiffer iShapes.
I think the Magnum would be a little soft for you.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I've got the i.speeds and they are a complete riot. 177 long and I am 6'2" and 90kg and LOVE carving [there is proper Zen in beautiful carved turns, don't you know?!]. They are sub 70mm and have a 14m radius. They are great medium turn carvers but will go shorter or longer without much fuss. They are very stable and work fine in bumps but not great off piste.
I have tried and discounted sl skis in the past as they wear me out and really DON'T do anything other than short carved turns. GS type skis are ok as they will skid a bit when you don't want to (or can't without annoying people at mach 2) use all of the 20m+ radius - which is most places, I have found!
I have tried a few pairs of all-mountain type skis and have hated every single one. I couldn't get the tips to engage and find the turns to end up as a kind of soggy, skidded, unfinished non-event. This is my very personal opinion btw and everyone is different, thank goodness.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Sorry to take the subject off piste a bit but, as there are quite a few very knowledgeable peeps on there...
Can anyone explain to me why the Rossignol Hero Elite has so many different flavours and what they mean?
I rented a pair in Tignes in December and I loved them ....
Then I rented another pair in Zell am See in Feb and I was underwhelmed by them.
slightly different colour scheme.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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ALWAYS pick equipment to match your outfit. NO EXCEPTIONS!!! Which rule is that again? 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| DrLawn wrote: |
Sorry to take the subject off piste a bit but, as there are quite a few very knowledgeable peeps on there...
Can anyone explain to me why the Rossignol Hero Elite has so many different flavours and what they mean?
I rented a pair in Tignes in December and I loved them ....
Then I rented another pair in Zell am See in Feb and I was underwhelmed by them.
slightly different colour scheme. |
I'll do my best - but I'm not sure I'm right:
There's an LT (Long Turn); and a ST (Short Turn) - I think these have Titanal and are very high performance, along with the option of the Konect or R22 Race plate.
There is a "Plus" Ti which is a bit oversize for a little extra versatility.
Then at a slight step down, there is an MT (Multi Turn), which has a Ti version and a lesser Carbon version.
There used to be an AT (All Turn) which may have been replaced by the MT and certainly had a Carbon version (but I don't know if it had a Ti version).
It may be you tried a Ti and a Carbon and probably found the Carbon underwhelming. Different years have different paint jobs.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Wed 12-08-20 9:38; edited 2 times in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Cheers @Old Fartbag,
I know I should have photographed the text on them, I'm sure the both claimed Ti.
Anyway cheers ... the Tignes pair grabbed my top spot ski away from Magnums which I was so fond of.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| DrLawn wrote: |
Cheers @Old Fartbag,
I know I should have photographed the text on them, I'm sure the both claimed Ti.
Anyway cheers ... the Tignes pair grabbed my top spot ski away from Magnums which I was so fond of. |
Could it have been the tune that was off?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Could it have been the tune that was off?
Nah! .... I think it was the colours were not as nice
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| boobleblooble wrote: |
| @jedster, thanks. What do others think of the Heads? |
SOrry I can't help you as I've not skied them. My comments were really about the type of ski that you should be looking at.
In our ski locker I've got skis ranging from FIS SL to 125mm waist/double rocker. If I know I'm going to be mostly on piste (and/or the off piste is firm) then I'll either be on the SLs or some 18m rad , 75mm waist, full camber skis with two layers of titanal and woodcore that were marketed as freeride skis 15 years ago!
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After my Head Titans delaminated I replaced them with Dynastar SpeedZone14. The Titans are really easy to ski, great fun on piste and good piste side too. The SpeedZones take a bit more effort to ski, but have a lot more grip and carve tighter turns. I think they’re making me a better skier, they reward the extra effort.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Valkyrie wrote: |
| The SpeedZones take a bit more effort to ski, but have a lot more grip and carve tighter turns. |
Interesting. "On Paper", the Titans seem to have the tighter radius (though the lengths don't match up) - but that mustn't translate when skiing them.
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I guess because the Titans are wider they tend to skid more easily, so they’re brilliant fun skiing long fast carves and skidding turns. The SpeedZones seem happier holding an edge.
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FAQ
