 Poster: A snowHead
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| Whitegold wrote: |
It's been dragging on for almost a decade...
Tens of millions of UK pounds lost or wasted.
HIE is like a headless chicken. |
FIFY. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| davidof wrote: |
I click on the BBC link and I get treated to this filth
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Don't worry, that's the only thing Swinney is unable to make a balls up of
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Ski lots wrote: |
| A few years ago I organised a meeting between the adventure sports industry in Scotland and a Scottish Government Minister, to get some interest in career development in the sector. The meeting was at Glenmore Lodge in November, with snow on the ground. Said Minister turned up in a fun-fur coat and high heels. Her most useful observation was “isn’t it cold” - we didn’t hear from her again. |
Constance?
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@DidierCouch, got it in one.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Building a funicular on a concrete viaduct has proved a disastrous choice. It didn’t achieve its objective of providing all weather access to the summit and there is little reason for repeat summer visits because passengers are not allowed out at the top.
In retrospect a do nothing strategy would have been much better. Perhaps the old sideways chair could have been maintained for longer, until a more modern unit could be sourced.
A replacement chair would still have been frequently closed by the wind but crucially it would not have bankrupted Caingorm leading to the premature closure of five other ski lifts, greatly reducing uplift capacity on the hill.
A more conventional Lift would have been easily recyclable at the end of its life and would also have allowed plenty of time to carefully think through future options.
Cairngorm now has to find £15m just to get back to the situation of having a functioning lift but still facing another big bill sometime in the future.
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@Peter S, Probably plenty of button lifts available in good condition too as alpine resorts replace them with chairs.
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Imagine if they had built a gondola down to Glenmore instead of a funicular up to the Ptarmigan. The ski road could have been closed and the Gondola would provide year round access to the hill. The ciste and the cas car parks could have been removed, healing scars in the landscape and returning tranquility to Cairngorm.
Since the Gondola would only extend as far up as the day lodge, or possibly the Sheiling, there would be no reason to restrict visitor access from the top station making the gondola attractive to walkers, climbers and touring skiers. The Gondola would be accessible to all and would open up new opportunities for downhill cycling.
Instead of a bleak car park half way up a hillside the base station would be part of an attractive visitor hub in the sheltered and accessible Glenmore forest. It’s easy to imagine a popular cafe bar, event space, accommodation and a myriad of year round activities centred there, better linked to the rest of the Spey valley.
On storm bound days the base station cafe would still be open and there would still be plenty to do. The hill road would not need significant maintenance at public expense and the skiing would be more responsive to good snow. In exceptional conditions it might even be possible to ski back down to base.
Since there would be year round income with repeat customers, the Ciste chairs, Aonach poma, white lady and Fiacaill Tbars would still be running maintaining uplift capacity on the hill and therefore ticket sales, in good conditions.
A detachable chair from the top of the Gondola would run up to the Ptarmigan and the White Lady would not have been robbed of snow by the funicular viaduct. The ptarmigan cafe would not have needed to be rebuilt and would have retained its unique character.
On days with too much wind it would just be accepted that there would be no lift served skiing.
Of course none of this would have prevented climate change or the attraction of cheap continental skiing and no doubt we would still be moaning about some other aspect of Cairngorm, but it probably wouldn’t be bankrupt.
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@Peter S, spot on with your comments.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I must admit, having spend a fair amount of time there earlier in my skiing/ snowboarding life and in the summer for hillwalking I've never been since the funicular was put in and never been tempted to.
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| Peter S wrote: |
Imagine if they had built a gondola down to Glenmore instead of a funicular up to the Ptarmigan. The ski road could have been closed and the Gondola would provide year round access to the hill. The ciste and the cas car parks could have been removed, healing scars in the landscape and returning tranquility to Cairngorm.
Since the Gondola would only extend as far up as the day lodge, or possibly the Sheiling, there would be no reason to restrict visitor access from the top station making the gondola attractive to walkers, climbers and touring skiers. The Gondola would be accessible to all and would open up new opportunities for downhill cycling.
Instead of a bleak car park half way up a hillside the base station would be part of an attractive visitor hub in the sheltered and accessible Glenmore forest. It’s easy to imagine a popular cafe bar, event space, accommodation and a myriad of year round activities centred there, better linked to the rest of the Spey valley.
On storm bound days the base station cafe would still be open and there would still be plenty to do. The hill road would not need significant maintenance at public expense and the skiing would be more responsive to good snow. In exceptional conditions it might even be possible to ski back down to base.
Since there would be year round income with repeat customers, the Ciste chairs, Aonach poma, white lady and Fiacaill Tbars would still be running maintaining uplift capacity on the hill and therefore ticket sales, in good conditions.
A detachable chair from the top of the Gondola would run up to the Ptarmigan and the White Lady would not have been robbed of snow by the funicular viaduct. The ptarmigan cafe would not have needed to be rebuilt and would have retained its unique character.
On days with too much wind it would just be accepted that there would be no lift served skiing.
Of course none of this would have prevented climate change or the attraction of cheap continental skiing and no doubt we would still be moaning about some other aspect of Cairngorm, but it probably wouldn’t be bankrupt. |
^ This. Funicular can't make money in summer for reasons your describe.
Ideally I would also close the road to Glenmore and extend the steam train track from Aviemore. Stops en-route for hikers, bikers and skiers. Make it proper car free national park Scotland can be proud of.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Peter S wrote: |
Imagine if they had built a gondola down to Glenmore instead of a funicular up to the Ptarmigan. The ski road could have been closed and the Gondola would provide year round access to the hill. The ciste and the cas car parks could have been removed, healing scars in the landscape and returning tranquility to Cairngorm.
Since the Gondola would only extend as far up as the day lodge, or possibly the Sheiling, there would be no reason to restrict visitor access from the top station making the gondola attractive to walkers, climbers and touring skiers. The Gondola would be accessible to all and would open up new opportunities for downhill cycling.
Instead of a bleak car park half way up a hillside the base station would be part of an attractive visitor hub in the sheltered and accessible Glenmore forest. It’s easy to imagine a popular cafe bar, event space, accommodation and a myriad of year round activities centred there, better linked to the rest of the Spey valley.
On storm bound days the base station cafe would still be open and there would still be plenty to do. The hill road would not need significant maintenance at public expense and the skiing would be more responsive to good snow. In exceptional conditions it might even be possible to ski back down to base.
Since there would be year round income with repeat customers, the Ciste chairs, Aonach poma, white lady and Fiacaill Tbars would still be running maintaining uplift capacity on the hill and therefore ticket sales, in good conditions.
A detachable chair from the top of the Gondola would run up to the Ptarmigan and the White Lady would not have been robbed of snow by the funicular viaduct. The ptarmigan cafe would not have needed to be rebuilt and would have retained its unique character.
On days with too much wind it would just be accepted that there would be no lift served skiing.
Of course none of this would have prevented climate change or the attraction of cheap continental skiing and no doubt we would still be moaning about some other aspect of Cairngorm, but it probably wouldn’t be bankrupt. |
Imagine installing snow cannons on the road and using this as a several mile tranquil green run from the current base station down to Glenmore. This would give seasonal skiing from December to March regardless of conditions higher up the mountain.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
Cairngorm is like a headless chicken.
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But a very decent ski area with a reliable (for Scotland) snow record and a long season. Great access to surrounding ski touring terrain too.
Needs saving....
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| Peter S wrote: |
Building a funicular on a concrete viaduct has proved a disastrous choice. It didn’t achieve its objective of providing all weather access to the summit and there is little reason for repeat summer visits because passengers are not allowed out at the top.
In retrospect a do nothing strategy would have been much better. |
HIE ultimately persuaded a lot of the snowsports community to support the funicular because they presented it as having reached the stage it was the funicular or do nothing, they are basically playing the same game now - the funicular gets repaired or it is game over. HIE and CML are the problem, not part of the solution and CairnGorm can not succeed while HIE remain owner and the present long term operations team remain in situ. To be brutally honest, if CairnGorm closed, Aviemore would have the ski area it deserves, when things could have been different, Aviemore didn't want to know. 
What HIE weren't open about until the 2009 Audit Scotland report - the original DO NOTHING option, was not do nothing, it involved building the new Base Station and Ptarmigan, extending the Carpark Chair into the Base Station, the White Lady Chairlift would terminate inside the Ptarmigan Station and through running at the middle would again have been possible with a new build Sheiling as well. As an extra, the Carpark and White Lady Chairlift were always capable of running with 4 seat gondolas, utilising 2 chair grips on an articulated arm to cope with the curvature of the guide rails in the stations.
From what can be ascertained, we are now looking at £15m to fix the viaduct, £2m to upgrade the rolling stock and control system / running gear refurbishment and £3m to rebuild the Ptarmigan Restaurant. Visitor numbers will rise sharply for a couple of years as people go for a look to see what's happened, HIE will trumpet how fantastic they are and hope no-one notices in a couple of years when it's back to declining visitor numbers below sustainable levels and more money needs to be ploughed in. Will it be 2030 or 2040 before the viaduct needs another £30m chucked at it?
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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The whole story might make an Insightful TV programme ?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Highlands MSP wants further probe into running of Cairngorm Mountain.
Quote:
"He told the Strathy the Audit Scotland report had highlighted a number of serious failings at the attraction. "It suggests that HIE mismanaged their commercial contract with the previous operators of Cairngorm Mountain. There was a lack of scrutiny, a lack of regular monitoring and a lack of documentation," said the MSP.
"However, the report raises more questions than answers. This is why I am requesting that the PAPLS Committee hold an inquiry and take evidence from the Scottish Government, HIE and the previous operators of Cairngorm Mountain".
Finally someone with some, albeit limited, authority is speaking out on this omnishambles. Perhaps all hope is not lost.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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So the Scottish Government has accepted HIE's proposal to repair the funicular at a cost of more than £16million. An additional £4m of new investment is to be used for improvements at the ski centre, including upgrades of paths and car parks and the electrification of "cannons" used to distribute artificially-made snow.
Not mentioned in the BBC report, but identified in HIE's "business case" for repairing the funicular (see Executive Summary here) is that they acknowledge that even with the funicular back in operation the Cairngorm operation will run at a loss, with a provision of between £9.76m and £14.57m over a five-year period to support the operating company until 2026.  Quite what happens beyond 2026 is anyone's guess.
I'm sure the other Scottish ski areas would welcome an equal share of HIE's largesse that they have thrown at Cairngorm (some might say in an effort to salvage their original flawed decision to build the funicular in the first place).
All I can say is, I'm glad I'm not a Scottish taxpayer.....
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Alastair Pink, if your an English taxpayer your are subsiding the Scottish government under the Barnett formula
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Really no surprise, they'd never decom something they put in badly. Good investment for the area.
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| orange wrote: |
| Really no surprise, they'd never decom something they put in badly. Good investment for the area. |
It's not good investment, it's a financial disaster pouring between £29 and £35 million of public funds into a blackhole to achieve nothing other than re-establish a failed status quo which the 'business case' admits is not and cannot be economically viable! All to save face at HIE, and save Fergus Ewing MSP's blushes for some really stupid things he said in support of the funicular when an opposition MSP! By spending this money in this manor, it is robbing CairnGorm and the other ski centres in HIE's area of the opportunity for transformational investment that would deliver a real return and spread benefits across the Highlands.
The team on the hill who've run Cairngorm into the ground have known for years they were being looked after, they will be very smug now, because they know their salaries are safe for years no matter what, why bother when you know the salary will always be in the bank at the end of the month. What an unbelievable kick in the teeth for the other four areas who have to get enough coin in the till and make the ski season work to get a pay packet each month, particularly for Glencoe with all thats happened in the past 12 months with what turned out to be the season from hell.
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Should have ripped the thing down and installed more chair lifts, and built a gondola from aviemore.
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Cairngorm is the ultimate camel.
A horse designed by committee.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| stevew wrote: |
| @Alastair Pink, if your an English taxpayer your are subsiding the Scottish government under the Barnett formula |
Lord knows how we would have coped over the years without you, massa.
I suppose if Scotland had ever been a net contributor to the British Exchequer then it might be reasonable to expect some kind of return but as I am sure you have determined from your extensive reading on the subject, we are perennial charity cases.
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Absolutely spot on Haggis.
The brave but logical decision would have been to dismantle the funicular over time and accept it has failed. Then properly consider how a modern chair could work and simply accept there will be many days when it is just not possible to reach the Ptarmigan by lift.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Can't help feeling it is the wrong decision, £20 mill is an awful lot of money on one lift.
I appreciate that high winds are a problem when considering chairlifts but with money clearly available there must be an effective solution, at a far lower price.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Modern snow cannons can work miracles these days, as they do across Europe. It doesn't even have to be freezing temp.
But the wind is becoming an increasing problem in the UK and is probably the biggest long term challenge facing Scottish skiing and I'm not sure what the answer to that one is.
Aviemore and the Highlands need Cairngorm. seems like a good investment to me.
I wonder if Val D'sere will lodge a complaint the EU about lost business to a government-subsidised competitor? Presuming we get a deal - and government handouts are banned.....
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| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
| I wonder if Val D'sere will lodge a complaint the EU about lost business to a government-subsidised competitor? Presuming we get a deal - and government handouts are banned..... |
Well the other privately owned Scottish resorts would have an even stronger case to complain about lost business to a government-subsidised competitor! OK several of them have had some modest HIE financial support recently in getting snow making equipment, but an order of magnitude less support than the money HIE is spending at Cairngorm!
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You know it makes sense.
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| GreenDay wrote: |
| stevew wrote: |
| @Alastair Pink, if your an English taxpayer your are subsiding the Scottish government under the Barnett formula |
Lord knows how we would have coped over the years without you, massa.
I suppose if Scotland had ever been a net contributor to the British Exchequer then it might be reasonable to expect some kind of return but as I am sure you have determined from your extensive reading on the subject, we are perennial charity cases. |
I made my comment as an embittered Northerner see that we get the poor end of any funding deal compared to the South and the devolved nations
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| stevew wrote: |
| ...I made my comment as an embittered Northerner see that we get the poor end of any funding deal compared to the South and the devolved nations |
I think the north of England was pretty solidly behind brexit and Mr Johnson though, so I guess they're looking forward to reaping those benefits anytime now.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| philwig wrote: |
| I think the north of England was pretty solidly behind brexit and Mr Johnson though, so I guess they're looking forward to reaping those benefits anytime now. |
The larger cities were not, don't know about Bradford.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| philwig wrote: |
| stevew wrote: |
| ...I made my comment as an embittered Northerner see that we get the poor end of any funding deal compared to the South and the devolved nations |
I think the north of England was pretty solidly behind brexit and Mr Johnson though, so I guess they're looking forward to reaping those benefits anytime now. |
I wish and personally I voted against Brexit.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Ricklovesthepowder, Actually cheaper to repair the funicular than to remove it.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Rabbie wrote: |
| @Ricklovesthepowder, Actually cheaper to repair the funicular than to remove it. |
Surely the cost of removing it will be incurred at end of life anyway? Key question is whether it is worth having after the repair.
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| Ricklovesthepowder wrote: |
| Should have ripped the thing down and installed more chair lifts, and built a gondola from aviemore. |
But of course that will never happen, because it is sensible, and sensible decisions and Cairngorm don't mix.
Out of a point of principal I'll continue to refuse to ski at Cairngorm and the other 4 Scottish ski centres will get my business, weather gods (and work patterns) willing.
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| Ravelin wrote: |
| Ricklovesthepowder wrote: |
| Should have ripped the thing down and installed more chair lifts, and built a gondola from aviemore. |
But of course that will never happen, because it is sensible, and sensible decisions and Cairngorm don't mix.
Out of a point of principal I'll continue to refuse to ski at Cairngorm and the other 4 Scottish ski centres will get my business, weather gods (and work patterns) willing. |
I agree your last point, I will use Coe and Shee.
New uplift to replace the funi - yes.
A 10 mile gondola from Aviemore? Not really.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The main reason I do not go to Cairngorm is that it is too far away. Also, every time I have been there it has been a nasty place in high wind. Other Scottish ski areas have more sheltered areas from the wind, but Cairngorm is very exposed.
I have climbed a few of the munros there in summer time, before the furnicular was built.
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| GreenDay wrote: |
| A 10 mile gondola from Aviemore? Not really. |
Quite, that's not practical. However what would be practical is a gondola from Glenmore Forest up to the Cairngorm day lodge. It would also mean people could get to Cairngorm ski area straight away without having to wait for the steep access road to be cleared of snow after a snowstorm, which can often take quite some time.
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FAQ
In their "business case" for repairing the funicular they just state a total cost for removing the funicular of £16.92million, with no reference to a) how many quotes it obtained or b) a detailed itemised breakdown of the activities and costs involved. Permit me to remain a bit sceptical with regards to HIE figures. 
