 Poster: A snowHead
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@tangowaggon, I am a re-convert to skinnier skis for the simple reason that I now spend more time on than off piste. Currently on Völkl RTM 82, I find that these provide almost as much float in powder as my old Mantras and are in a different league when it comes to hard piste. I also find that they are easier on my knees when skiing pistes all day!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@tangowaggon, no. Wrong. IME.
On piste you want to be carving but with modern initiation and high edge angles.
Once it clicks, it’s very fine indeed. You have to work a little harder. The ski width does bring a castor effect which you have to work against.
But not smearing or skidding as core technique, exactly the opposite.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Yup, I have been skiing the past 6 weeks with the following breakdown, SL skis twice, GS once, all mountain skis twice and my 120mm Bent Chetlers for every other day. They are harder work on piste but carve well, are easy to handle through bumps and absolutely excel at off piste, wet snow, slush and powder. You cant just bounce them from edge to edge rapidly as with a slalom ski and I wouldn't say they are fun on ice but as an all rounder they are fine.
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And I can confirm that flangesax can certainly handle those Big Daddy oil tankers 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I ordered a pair of Legend 96's from Jon and looking forward to testing em out and getting back onto a wider ski. Used to have Mantras about 7 years ago for a touring ski but they weighed a ton were almost too stiff for off piste with a big radius so I sold em. Two friends who are good skiers recon the 96 carves well on piste once you get accustomed to the width.. Just hope there is some deep stuff when they arrive !
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You can carve a longer radius ski you just need to tip it more. Look at GS skiers with c 30m radius. But the main problem seems to be a desire to carve all the time. Fine on groomer (space permitting), less useful off piste.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, I've been carving turns on all radii of skis since the 1980s, it's only the number of turns that I can carve on a specific slope that has changed. 
I think what makes my iRallys easy to turn offpiste is the tips & tails are very wide, wider than some more offpiste orientated skis so when I lean them into a turn, the skinny middle sinks, bending the ski more than a more parallel ski and makes the ski turn just like on piste but for different reasons ie it's the surface area of the tips & tails rather than the width that bends the ski.
All in all, when I stick the skis on edge, I want them to turn and turn sharp! I want to put a nice wiggle in the powder, not just charge down it, any fool can just put their skis in a straight line & go for it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| tangowaggon wrote: |
All in all, when I stick the skis on edge, I want them to turn and turn sharp! I want to put a nice wiggle in the powder |
I think you are confusing new snow on a hard base with powder skiing. Edging and carving as no relevancy in powder skiing.
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| PowderAdict wrote: |
| tangowaggon wrote: |
All in all, when I stick the skis on edge, I want them to turn and turn sharp! I want to put a nice wiggle in the powder |
I think you are confusing new snow on a hard base with powder skiing. Edging and carving as no relevancy in powder skiing. |
No I'm not
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Ok, explain how you are edging and carving in 50cm of powder when your skis aren't touching a solid surface?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@PowderAdict, doesn't he just mean that he rocks his ankles to turn, so that the skis are at an angle? Is that wrong? (Plainly he's not carving a line in the snow base, assuming he's not actually skiing on the base.)
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You know it makes sense.
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| tangowaggon wrote: |
@dp, on the contrary, I've been a skinny skier for the past 32 years and everyone is now raving about fat skis so I think I want to try some but they don't suit my piste style because they are wide. You and others say wide skis are as good on piste as off but I agree with Cameron and others that say it's horses for courses.
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That's not what I'm saying at all.
To me, there is some mileage between "rotten on piste" and "as good on piste as off".
My point is that my Preachers (For example) are not as good - for me - as my Head Revs on most pistes. BUT:
1) They are a lot of fun when the piste conditions are right. Way more than the Heads!
2) They are so much better off-piste that for a day out of mixed-terrain skiing, they're worth taking out.
3) They are completely skiable in nigh on all piste conditions and with the exception of pure ice rink conditions I would not call them rotten.
Different people enjoy different things. I am not making a judgement on whether you should get fat skis I'm just saying, don't draw a blanket conclusion that fat skis are bad for any piste skiing.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@dp, you know my opinion on the preachers albeit a limited experience at the oktobertest but, compared to every other ski I tried that day, some wide, some narrow, the preachers were about as nimble as a bus with four flat tyres. The shorter Directors were much more usable
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Poster: A snowHead
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DPS 112 are pretty good on piste for a wide ski
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@tangowaggon, yes I am aware that you didn't enjoy them and to be honest at the Oktobertest I found them a little bit sluggish on the 2 runs I did with them. But I have had the benefit of spending 3 hours on some on an actual mountain, and I find them nimble and easy to control, and as spyderjon pointed out to you, Eva Walkner seems to have got pretty good control out of them in becoming the world champion so maybe she would disagree with you too. But then I am used to skiing stiff skis that require a lot of working, I don't get on well on the directors... you had fun on them. So evidently it is different suitability, not better or worse. But you can't really compare them, the Directors and Preachers are entirely different designs.
My point, whether you like whatever ski, is still that either maybe you don't like wide skis and should stick to your iRallys... or maybe you need to try a good range of wide skis in actual real life conditions before coming to the conclusion that they all suck!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@tangowaggon,
Not at all. I spend most of 2/4 weeks per-year skiing off-piste with guides, but I used to rent a pair of race skis for the afternoons or days without a guide - I have no reason to do so now. Plenty of relatively fat skis now perform very well on piste and are great fun on moguls, slushy and chopped up snow and they can carve. I love my Salomon Rocker 2s in 115 width but loads of other relatively fat skis perform well on and off-piste - try a variety next time you are skiing, different stiffness, rockers etc. You will not have the same experience with fat skis as you will with a dedicated piste ski but if you chose the correct pair for your style then on-piste skiing can still be really enjoyable. You can carve on piste with fat skis and perform short radius turns with them.
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| tangowaggon wrote: |
@Dave of the Marmottes, I've been carving turns on all radii of skis since the 1980s, it's only the number of turns that I can carve on a specific slope that has changed.
I think what makes my iRallys easy to turn offpiste is the tips & tails are very wide, wider than some more offpiste orientated skis so when I lean them into a turn, the skinny middle sinks, bending the ski more than a more parallel ski and makes the ski turn just like on piste but for different reasons ie it's the surface area of the tips & tails rather than the width that bends the ski.
All in all, when I stick the skis on edge, I want them to turn and turn sharp! I want to put a nice wiggle in the powder, not just charge down it, any fool can just put their skis in a straight line & go for it. |
....and there's your answer really, as a generalisation most modern fat skis are not made for wiggling down the powder at low speed, certainly not Whitedots unless you size down to a much softer, shorter size where that will make a big difference. Out of interest what size/construction of the Preacher did you try in the snowdome?
As for any "fool" being able pointing their skis and charge, I assure you that's not the case and modern big mountain technique is as challenging as it's ever been.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@the_doc, +1
@tangowaggon, I think it's become pretty clear that fat skis just don't fit well with your style and how you like to ski (nothing wrong with that - ski what and how you have the most fun!).
If you want something that'll help a bit more offpiste but in keeping with your style, perhaps take a look at the Salomon XDR 84 (or 8 Ti.
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Hey Tango take a ride on my Faction Chapter 106 next month in StAnton. I have demo bindings so real easy swap. I find they carve beautifully on piste (one big reason I snapped em up after a quick demo).
Be interesting to find out a side by side comparison between you and I - is it the gear or the style???
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@essex, you're on! Thanks. I am planning to get some demo skis too, we can mix n match if you like. The choice in Tignes was surprisingly poor.
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And my Faction CT 3.0 is a great ski on piste, holds a good edge, but like all fatter skis, gets bucked around a bit on a cut up piste, like has been said, a compromise, but a good one! (I have a GS ski for piste but have more fun with the CT 3.0's so rarely gets used)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Nothing wrong with a bit of 80's slarving/scharving! . . .two solutions - keep your narrow piste beasts and only use the fatties when its proper powder . . .or go mediocre like myself and have a play with some mid waisted (80-90mms) all rounders . . .best of both worlds for most real-world holiday skiers . . .Experience 84 / Dynastar Cham 87 / Blizzard Brahma / Head iMagnum/Titan / Kastle MX 84 (if your feeling flush).
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| tangowaggon wrote: |
| Themasterpiece wrote: |
| tangowaggon wrote: |
| under a new name wrote: |
Also, 18m is not ridiculously long radius.
Could the ski be exposing technical deficiencies in the skier?  just sayin’ |
I think therin lies the issue, for a piste ski I wouldn't touch anything more than a 14m radius, I'm not into the big gs turns on or offpiste, for me, offpiste is tree skiing, gulleys and technical stuff where I want a ski that turns on a sixpence and most offpiste ski designers aim them at long charging turns down powder fields. |
I’m no offpiste expert, but I don’t think the ski radius comes into the equation in trees and stuff as you are not carving turns... |
ski radius is very significant in the trees! Short radius, you ski round them, long radius, you hit them! |
Stiff straight wide cambered skis are probably meant for hard charging straight down some 60 degree Alaskan slope, but otherwise can get some combination of radius, flex, torsional rigidity, width, camber/rocker, and technique, makes wide skis work very well in tight spots.
My favorite tree skis are 128 under foot, and I'm pretty sure I couldn't get through tight trees faster (alive!) on slalom skis. I have however skied GS on the same fully rockered super fat skis - not exactly high performance and a bit wobbly, but could crank them over and get them round the gates. Must have been ok because my fat skis have a shorter radius than real WC GS skis? 
A preference thing I guess. I hate having skis with any sort of short radius for more technical off piste, chutes, couloirs, etc. Much prefer to be able to do drops with a big predictable platform, and butter and fineness turns in tricky spots than go carving my way down the super steeps.
Of course this may all be due to a talent shortage on my side? 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| tangowaggon wrote: |
@Dave of the Marmottes, I've been carving turns on all radii of skis since the 1980s, it's only the number of turns that I can carve on a specific slope that has changed.
I think what makes my iRallys easy to turn offpiste is the tips & tails are very wide, wider than some more offpiste orientated skis so when I lean them into a turn, the skinny middle sinks, bending the ski more than a more parallel ski and makes the ski turn just like on piste but for different reasons ie it's the surface area of the tips & tails rather than the width that bends the ski.
All in all, when I stick the skis on edge, I want them to turn and turn sharp! I want to put a nice wiggle in the powder, not just charge down it, any fool can just put their skis in a straight line & go for it. |
Was quite a happy to be a fool laying down some giant turns in the deep pow* on my fat skis at the weekend on a 1500M vertical, almost totally untracked powder run 
*Somehow I also managed to get them through the powder in a bunch of tight trees (and not even on my favourite tree powder skis!)
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Tue 2-01-18 1:20; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| stuarth wrote: |
A preference thing I guess. |
I think it is entirely a preference thing.
We are all different as people. We all have unique legs, backs, brains, feet, knees, hips, and everything else. Yet bizarrely we expect all skis to function identically between different users.
I take my Preachers and I have so much fun on piste and off. I can get them right onto their edges and chuck them around all over the place and have so much fun that I just absolutely had to buy a pair. Yet I can account for the fact that tangowaggon is a very capable skier and he jumped on a pair and felt like he was trying to ski a pair of aircraft carriers.
So I think the point is entirely that the reason there are so many different models of ski out there and yet they all sell enough to keep the company in business, is because we are not all the same. If we were all the same then there would be the best ski for each environment and then there would be all of the others. But there are not because the people who ride them are as different as the skis and the places you take them and that really is all there is to it IMHO!
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| dp wrote: |
| stuarth wrote: |
A preference thing I guess. |
I think it is entirely a preference thing.
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Indeed. So perhaps the OP should change the thread title?
"Are all wide skis truly rotten on piste?" perhaps should be "Are all wide skis truly rotten on piste if the way you ski makes them not your thing?"
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You know it makes sense.
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@stuarth, precisely
It just that this thread reads a bit like tangowaggon is attempting to justify the fact that he's not found any skis he wants to buy, by coming to the conclusion that wide skis which are good on piste do not exist. As if arriving at the conclusion that you just don't like any of them is some sort of failure on your own part. When it clearly isn't!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I used to have Head Titans and replaced them with Sky 7s due to moving to Australia last January via a US ski trip, and expecting to ski Japan / US in northern-hemisphere winter.
Unexpectedly I'll be in Europe this year, so will have a better opportunity to compare like for like, but the Sky7s have been pretty good on the groomed stuff in both the US and AU/NZ, and a lot more fun in slush/bumps/fresh stuff. Whereas the Titans were horrific (certainly partly / mostly down to technique though) on older snow on an offpiste course in Tignes Dec 2016. I occasionally miss the old ones and am keeping my eye out for something maybe 70-75mm at the right price for when it really gets icy, but otherwise would rather optimise for more fun when its good than dealing with tricky conditions.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| dp wrote: |
| ... We are all different as people. We all have unique legs, backs, brains, feet, knees, hips, and everything else. Yet bizarrely we expect all skis to function identically between different users... |
Ahhh...It seems Love Has Taken It’s Toll!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| KenX wrote: |
| but like all fatter skis, gets bucked around a bit on a cut up piste, ) |
This
Many have said that fat skis cope with cut up slopes and crud better, but like you I found that the sky7s bounced me all over the place when the iRallys would have sliced straight through. I can point the iRallys or the hero short turns and be confident on heading that way, when I pointed the Sky7s I was never quite sure where I would end up!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| stuarth wrote: |
Was quite a happy to be a fool laying down some giant turns in the deep pow* on my fat skis at the weekend on a 1500M vertical, almost totally untracked powder run
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That's another issue, having skied the prebb and bb in the Sella Ronda for the past 3 years where all the pistes are so bashed flat that it's quite possible to fall asleep on them and the offpiste has been green fields, my general ski experience is that offpiste has only been worth skiing about one day in ten. I'll try more wide skis but so far I can easily manage any offpiste on skinny skis better than I can manage piste on fatties.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| tangowaggon wrote: |
| KenX wrote: |
| but like all fatter skis, gets bucked around a bit on a cut up piste, ) |
This
Many have said that fat skis cope with cut up slopes and crud better, but like you I found that the sky7s bounced me all over the place when the iRallys would have sliced straight through. I can point the iRallys or the hero short turns and be confident on heading that way, when I pointed the Sky7s I was never quite sure where I would end up! |
That has absolutely nothing to do with the width or rocker and everything to do with the fact the Sky 7s are soft floppy playful bounce around type skis.
Try a pair of Dynastar Legend Factories and you won't even feel the bumps
Construction is as important, maybe more important, than dimensions
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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“Construction is as important, maybe more important, than dimensions”
This.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| under a new name wrote: |
“Construction is as important, maybe more important, than dimensions”
This. |
+1
| tangowaggon wrote: |
| ......like you I found that the sky7s bounced me all over the place when the iRallys would have sliced straight through..... |
That's because the sky7's are made from the sawdust sweepings off the Dynastar factory floor
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| tangowaggon wrote: |
Many have said that fat skis cope with cut up slopes and crud better, but like you I found that the sky7s bounced me all over the place when the iRallys would have sliced straight through. I can point the iRallys or the hero short turns and be confident on heading that way, when I pointed the Sky7s I was never quite sure where I would end up! |
Are you just like really not getting this at all? Just because your Sky7s had the cutting power of a rubber mallet, this is not an indication that all wide skis are so. It really isn't!
Everything I have ever skied from Rossignol has felt like a toy. I would never put you on Rossignol skis because I would thoroughly expect you to bend them in half. You're clearly never going to get agility off a ski that is way too soft and bendy for your ability and style.
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| under a new name wrote: |
@tangowaggon, there’s your answer, “I've been a skinny skier for the past 32 years ”.
It wasn’t until I modified and updated my 40 years skinny ski technique to use modern skis properly that I began to get the full performance out of modern wider skis on piste. |
Forgive my ignorance of the older skinny skis used as a comparison, but by modern wider skis are you talking about fat skis or just modern skis in general? I'm intrigued by the posts here arguing that fat skis are good on piste if you ski them right, as while I have much more limited experience than most here I've been amazed at the difference I've found in my technique skiing short-radius skis versus even more-piste-orientated all-mountain skis. In narrow-waisted skis it feels like I'm carving on rails and I can easily change carve dimensions, etc., which I've never found with all mountain skis. Is it just, as someone said, that fat skis have got better on piste to make them acceptable for a mixed day/holiday but are still a long way behind piste skis, or with different technique can they be pretty close in terms of control when carving on piste?
I'm happy to admit this may be my technique, I'm just curious. I'd like to start doing some off piste but with my previous experience I assumed I'd need two pairs of skis to combine it with a piste holiday. If better technique and better off piste skis makes it possible on one pair that would be great
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| spyderjon wrote: |
| under a new name wrote: |
“Construction is as important, maybe more important, than dimensions”
This. |
+1 |
Apologies for the n00b question, but how important is tuning in this, compared to dimensions? When hiring skis I've been amazed at the differences, and I've tended to find that I ski much better on piste skis with a very short turn radius, though as this is a pretty small sample size I'm wondering whether it's actually the dimensions or more that the skis I've liked happened to have been well-tuned, freshly waxed, etc., especially as those I've particularly liked are ones I've switched to mid-week (so have had time to be serviced rather than given straight to the next guy at changeover day). Part of what's stopped me buying my own skis is that tech seems to keep moving on and as I ski a couple of weeks a year hiring makes sense, though if the tuning is making a big difference it makes it more worthwhile buying some and keeping them tuned right for me rather than relying on the hire shop lottery. Especially if this means I could get an all mountain ski to work for me in different conditions rather than needing multiple pairs if I want to start doing off piste.
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@under a new name,
| Quote: |
@tangowaggon, no. Wrong. IME.
On piste you want to be carving but with modern initiation and high edge angles.
Once it clicks, it’s very fine indeed. You have to work a little harder. The ski width does bring a castor effect which you have to work against.
But not smearing or skidding as core technique, exactly the opposite.
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I think there is a lot of confusing stuff on this thread! Much of it right but only for specific ski designs and underfoot conditions.
But going back to the original question - it depends on which fat skis we are talking about, what types of turns you like to make and how firm the piste is.
If we are talking about carving turns of various shapes on piste then there is a whole breed of fatter ski that are perfectly capable of doing this under most piste conditions (I'd suggest you wouldn't want to try it on an icy race course but perhaps that just reflects the limit of my ability @under a new name,? )
These skis have pretty conventional sidecut (say radius in the teens), perhaps with a little rocker and some stiffness. UANN's bonafides, volkl mantras are classic examples. The OP's sky 7's have a little more rocker and are a little softer but still have plenty of sidecut and are still in this category - my son and daughter have been carving lovely turns on an exact equivalent (saffron 7) for the last couple of years.
At the other end you have skis which are much more designed as soft snow playthings. The ones I have are WD Redeemers - these have very little sidecut (radius 28m or something) and a lot of rocker (very short running length) and are quite wide (125mm waist I think). I can get them to carve a very limited range of turn shapes on piste but it is frankly not much fun and the castor makes it uncomfortable. Even UANN's "modern initiation and high edge angles" won;t go far on these things.
They do however pivot really easily so when I am on piste (getting to some off piste!) I'll tend to actually ski shorter turns in the fall line - just more pleasant. If I was going to be on piste all day I'd find them a compete ballsache. The ability to pivot and drift makes them great in the trees - very nimble - but not via carving!
In between I have WD R108CL - these have less rocker than a pure powder ski but a flatter straighter tail than bonafides or mantras. Unsurprisingly they are a compromise of the two - they will carve a range of longer turns very nicely but I'm not able to link short carves on them like I can on a piste/all mountain ski. They will also pivot easily (tails release very smoothly and quickly) but not with quite the freedom of the redeemers.
So to summarise - some fat skis are rubbish at carving on piste but there are plenty that are pretty good, at least if you are not on boiler plate.
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FAQ
