 Poster: A snowHead
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There seem to be refurbishments/upgrades all over. People are getting very demanding and the resorts have to compete for bums on (heated or unheated) seats.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@pam w, I think we are very lucky in Europe, with so many ski resorts in competition with each other, and a demanding clientele. A quick search of Google shows that total numbers of winter sport visitors and holidays are pretty flat over the past few years, so resorts have to fight each other for a fixed number of paying customers.
I think the situation is much better than in the USA, where large corporations seem to own many of the resorts; and they just suck the money out, rather than re-investing it new and better lifts etc.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Although I spend most of my ski season in Austria, last year I spent a week in Val D and found a high mountain restaurant that did quiche or pizza, help yourself salad / sprinkles with a vin chaud for ten Euros. Great value.
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Laurent Vanat makes a few interesting comments about the various Alpine countries and their differing approaches to mountain tourism, in his "2016 International Report on Snow & Mountain Tourism". (see Page 27 onwards in http://www.vanat.ch/RM-world-report-2016-vanat.pdf ). The rankings on page 14 are also revealing, in that it is clear that the most popular French resorts tend to be high, purpose-built ski stations, with (paradoxically?) a reputation for unattractive architecture, soulnessness and high prices, whereas in Austria popular resorts tend more often to be original farming villages that have grown and developed with the ski industry over the past 50 years or so. The difference in climate and lower snowline in Austria no doubt partially account for the differences between "typical" ski resorts in the two countries.
It should also be noted that French ski resorts depend to a much higher degree on visitors from their own country than on foreign visitors. The converse is true in Austria, where winter tourism is a major industry and foreign visitors are represented in a far greater proportion than its own nationals. (Incidentally, this difference between the two countries in the relative importance to the economy of winter international tourism may well explain some of the fundamental differences in approach - planning, investment, type and quality of accommodation, attitude of service providers, education policy in regard to the teaching of English, etc.) The fact that around 70% of visitors to French ski resorts are French nationals may help in particular to explain the preponderance in France of relatively utilitarian ski resorts and notoriously basic/cramped self-catering accommodation, as well as the success of British chalet companies in exploiting a niche in the market, and also the less cosmopolitan atmosphere of typical French ski resorts. Conversely the fact that nearly 70% of visitors to Austrian resorts are from other countries may to some extent explain the greater emphasis on harmonious developments, attractive accommodation, slick lift systems, and a far greater emphasis on "gemuetlichkeit" and sociable, apres-ski entertainment. Obviously I'm speaking in general terms - there will be exceptions in both countries.
Leaving aside (for the purposes of this topic) the many differences in style and culture between the most popular ski resorts in the two countries, and focusing on price differentials, many of our guests here in Saalbach comment favourably on the relatively inexpensive prices for food and drink, both in the village and up the mountain; also the reasonable prices of lift passes and equipment hire. Some might consider that they are drawing possibly unfair comparisons: it's a while since I skied in France, but there may well be a world of difference, for example, between prices in the Paradiski/Espace Killy/3 Vallees and the likes of Serre Chevalier/Les Gets/Rissoul (oh, and Les Saisies, Pam W  ). Similarly there have been plenty of comments on this forum about the relative price differentials between the likes of Lech/St Anton/Ischgl and the Ski Circus/Ski Welt/Si Amade/Zillertal Arena. Also many people make the transition from the ubiquitous catered chalet accommodation in France to B&B or self-catering accommodation in Austria (where catered chalets are not only far less prevalent, but also less needed), so, when comparing prices, they may not be starting from the same baseline.
Comparisons are perhaps only meaningful when comparing resorts that enjoy a similar degree of popularity in the two countries, otherwise it's like comparing apples with oranges. Most people I encounter are looking for well-located, affordable accommodation in a resort with a bit of a "buzz", and in a good, well-connected, reputable ski area. Consequently they tend to be comparing (perhaps unfairly) prices in popular (for a reason) Austrian resorts like Ischgl, St Anton, Ski Circus, Ski Welt, Kitzbuehel, Ski Amade, Mayrhofen/Zillertal with major French resorts like Val D/Tignes, 3 Vallees, Paradiski, Alpe d'Huez, LDA, Chamonix (as well of course as Swiss resorts like Verbier and Zermatt). Some, if not all, of those major French resorts may find it difficult to compete on price, but I have stayed in delightful French ski villages (e.g. St Martin de Belleville, Monetier, Les Gets, Montalbert, Vallandry), where it may well be possible to find good, self-catering accommodation, comparable with the norm in similar small villages in Austria in terms of aesthetic appeal, comfort and price. The prices of other essentials may not be quite so attractive in those particular French resorts, but there must be thousands of smaller ski villages that offer good value. However my experience has been that such villages tend to be quiet backwaters, and many visitors, who appreciate some conviviality after skiing may well be dissatisfied and be better advised to opt for the catered chalet formula of a ready-made social group with dinner parties every evening - which may in turn have price implications. Obviously it depends on what you're looking for.
If any of the above makes no sense, please don't be too hard on me - I've just spent two days driving back from Saalbach and am feeling a touch sleep-deprived!
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Thu 18-08-16 9:50; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Old Man Of Lech wrote: |
| If you want a warm, friendly welcome? It's worth paying a bit more and go to Austria. |
To be honest, that's a long way down my list of priorities.
I might go to Austria again when they catch up with the rest of the world on smoking in public places.
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| dogwatch wrote: |
| Old Man Of Lech wrote: |
| If you want a warm, friendly welcome? It's worth paying a bit more and go to Austria. |
To be honest, that's a long way down my list of priorities.
I might go to Austria again when they catch up with the rest of the world on smoking in public places. |
Agree, very annoying. When I stayed at a hotel in Ischgl, the inside smokers bar at ou hotel was impossible to avoid when coming back from a day of skiing.
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Agree, very annoying.
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Speaking as non-smoker I'm inclined to agree and find it mystifying - it's as though they have some kind of cognitive block about it and think that they're being easy-going, laid-back and welcoming to all - including smokers. Or they're so competitive and eager to grab their share of the 3.5 months winter tourist revenue that they fear the consequences of excluding smokers, especially as so many young people and social animals apparently think that it's "cool" to smoke - or even chain-smoke. Having said that, these days I spend the whole winter in Austria and have found that one gets accustomed to smoky environments, much as we used to be accustomed to it years ago in the UK. Guests who arrive for a week sometimes comment on it, and I then realise that I've not noticed because I'm used to it. Also I've found that, if it gets too much, there are always quieter or better ventilated places to go.
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Fattes13 wrote:
@skimastaaah,
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(please remember "cheaper" frequently means "cheap")
I would say the lift infrastructure in Austria is far superior to France, .
Hmm some examples please.
IMHO the opposite is true but enlightenment is always possible.
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Number of French resorts have a high % of older lifts, Chamonix, Megeve, flaine Chatel, Les Deux alps as examples.
https://www.thefrenchskiresort.com/skipass/ski-lifts-comparison.html Considering the price of the Chamonix lift pass and the standard of its infrastructure! Especially in Les Hoches. Another example is the fact that the 2 valleys pass is more expensive than Swiss 4 valleys, when you are more expensive than Switzerland
Compare that to the average lift infastructure in Mayrhofen, (98% of lifts are modern high speed) Ski Circus, St Anton, Lech etc.
The vast majority of Austrian resorts use modern high speed lifts, or much younger lift infrastructure compared to their French Piers. I would say Austria, Switzerland, France, Italy in that order of infrastructure taken as an average across resorts. French have severely under invested in modernization of lifts. Austrian lift companies, lead the world in new lifts, primarily for their home market.
Just for context the most resorts I have skied in a single year is 80! Clocked 48,000 Km driving for 3 years back to back in the Alps and am Swiss based now. Working full time in the Snow sports industry. Still think the Austrians have the best lifts. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Austrian lift companies, lead the world in new lifts
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A good example is that a few years ago “Where to Ski and Snowboard” gave Saalbach-Hinterglemm a special award (the Ski Circus sent a delegation to London to receive it) for "Best European Ski Development". It was also noted that the Ski Circus then had the highest proportion of fast lifts of any major resort in the world, and it would seem that it still retains the number 1 position (unsurprising in view of the massive investment in new lifts in recent years - including the current one). See this Telegraph report: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/ski/resort-guides/Saalbach-piste-guide/
On the more general subject of relative costs, I've been reminded that during the 2008/09 season, “Where to Ski and Snowboard” (www.wtss.co.uk), in conjunction with Post Office Money, conducted a major survey, involving a study of costs of eating and drinking in ski resorts. After months of analysing the results, it concluded that the top French and Swiss resorts offered the worst value for money, Courchevel winning the wooden spoon for the most extortionate prices. The surprise finding was that Austria offered relatively cheap prices, being generally on a par with Italy. This is also confirmed by this more recent article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/ski/news/Italy-and-Austria-best-for-budget-skiing/
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French have severely under invested in modernization of lifts
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They're doing a fair bit round my way. We bought our apartment in 2002. Since then there has been at least one completely new or upgraded lift every season. And one 4 man detachable chair being changed for a faster 6 man, right now.
Again, it depends what your priorities are. There seems little argument that Chamonix's lifts are very far from top quality - but people still go there in droves, for other aspects of the resort!
It's interesting about the proportion of foreign visitors. I hadn't realised how comparatively few Austrians there are in Austrian resorts. In French resorts it varies a lot - in some resorts you hear more English than French (Meribel being a particularly dismal example) but in many places hearing English is a rarity. I expect there are plenty of small Austrian resorts where Austrians who don't demand big linked areas of well groomed pistes, and fast heated chairs, go to escape the crowds of foreigners. Plenty of French skiers avoid the 3 Valleys because of too many Brits. 
Personally I enjoy speaking French to people whose English is worse than my French and who prefer to speak French! Gives me confidence. When they do that raised eyebrow thing and answer a perfectly coherent French sentence in English, it does the opposite.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The surprise finding was that Austria offered relatively cheap prices, being generally on a par with Italy.
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Why was that a surprise? It seems well accepted on SHs that eating and drinking in Austria is cheaper than France. I found a big distinction in Italy between the price of coffee and hot chocolate on the mountain, which was low (for outstanding quality) and the price of beer, which was similar to what we pay in my part of France. Beer seems not to be a cheap drink in Italy away from the mountains either. I didn't find eating on the mountain in Italy cheap, but it was extremely good, and good value.
Places like Courchevel and Megeve have some eye-wateringly expensive restaurants, but their clientele seem to want fine dining, not spag bol. I believe Megeve has one of the highest concentration of Michelin stars outside Paris.
One of the most annoyingly high priced mountain eateries (for very ordinary food) I've encountered in France was in Flaine. I'd not expected it, and no doubt there were cheaper prices but I didn't know the resort well.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Italy does not do bad or mediocre coffee, by law.
Italy for sure wins the food quality vs price award. Yes there may be cheaper, but Italy doesn't do "anything avec frites".
Austria beer prices are, like Germany, standard everywhere. What you pay on the mountain, in the hotel, down the local ratskeller will vary by no more than €0.10. Italy definitely more expensive. But not by a massive amount.
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@pam w,
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Why was that a surprise?
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Good question - perhaps because Austria used to have a reputation for being expensive if you go back far enough. Also, although Austrian resorts are generally cheap, certain resorts, like St Anton and Ischgl, buck the trend.
On the subject of Courchevel's prices, when I last skied there, over 10 years ago, I well remember stopping for lunch at a mountain restaurant and finding the cheapest item on the menu to be a bowl of clear soup at over 10 euros. I recall that we used to ski down to Le Praz in the valley below to find more affordable prices.
@andy,
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Austria beer prices are, like Germany, standard everywhere.
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...but they do seem to go in for a fair amount of "buy one get one free" type happy hours, when a half litre will therefore cost around 2 euros.
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You know it makes sense.
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I well remember stopping for lunch at a mountain restaurant and finding the cheapest item on the menu to be a bowl of clear soup at over 10 euros.
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 I was saved from paying something similar for a hot chocolate when one of the women in the group I was skiing with (from a catered chalet) had been stung there the day before. A few hundred yards away, prices were manageable. You really need to know where you're going in those places.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| pam w wrote: |
It's interesting about the proportion of foreign visitors. I hadn't realised how comparatively few Austrians there are in Austrian resorts. In French resorts it varies a lot - in some resorts you hear more English than French (Meribel being a particularly dismal example) but in many places hearing English is a rarity. I expect there are plenty of small Austrian resorts where Austrians who don't demand big linked areas of well groomed pistes, and fast heated chairs, go to escape the crowds of foreigners. |
I'm surprised you're surprised
There are just under 8.5m people living in Austria and apparently 426 ski resorts. France has a population of 66 million, with (apparently) 256 ski resorts. Seems fairly logical there will be fewer Austrians in each resort at a time!
If everyone living in Austria went to a resort at the same time, there would be just under 20,000 in each resort. If everyone living in France did the same, there would be ~260,000 in each French resort.
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Poster: A snowHead
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It's interesting about the proportion of foreign visitors. I hadn't realised how comparatively few Austrians there are in Austrian resorts. In French resorts it varies a lot - in some resorts you hear more English than French (Meribel being a particularly dismal example) but in many places hearing English is a rarity. I expect there are plenty of small Austrian resorts where Austrians who don't demand big linked areas of well groomed pistes, and fast heated chairs, go to escape the crowds of foreigners.
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1. You're an expert on German dialects and accents I presume? (As you appear to be able to distinguish between Austrians, Swiss and Germans)
2. English=the only foreign language to the Alps? You are aware there are about 1 million skiers in The Netherlands? (excluding Flanders that is...talking about accents) (Which makes it very well possible that there are more Dutch speaking skiers, than there are skiers coming from GB)
For our hotel in Lech Germans are the nr.1 guests, with Austrians steady in 2nd place. (Dutch probably 3rd)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Langerzug wrote: |
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It's interesting about the proportion of foreign visitors. I hadn't realised how comparatively few Austrians there are in Austrian resorts. In French resorts it varies a lot - in some resorts you hear more English than French (Meribel being a particularly dismal example) but in many places hearing English is a rarity. I expect there are plenty of small Austrian resorts where Austrians who don't demand big linked areas of well groomed pistes, and fast heated chairs, go to escape the crowds of foreigners.
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1. You're an expert on German dialects and accents I presume? (As you appear to be able to distinguish between Austrians, Swiss and Germans)
2. English=the only foreign language to the Alps? You are aware there are about 1 million skiers in The Netherlands? (excluding Flanders that is...talking about accents) (Which makes it very well possible that there are more Dutch speaking skiers, than there are skiers coming from GB)
For our hotel in Lech Germans are the nr.1 guests, with Austrians steady in 2nd place. (Dutch probably 3rd) |
You often come across as very aggressive... The person you quoted was commenting on someone else's assertion (which they took from a fairly detailed study), so I'm not sure why you're directing your ire at her.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Langerzug wrote: |
| Quote: |
It's interesting about the proportion of foreign visitors. I hadn't realised how comparatively few Austrians there are in Austrian resorts. In French resorts it varies a lot - in some resorts you hear more English than French (Meribel being a particularly dismal example) but in many places hearing English is a rarity. I expect there are plenty of small Austrian resorts where Austrians who don't demand big linked areas of well groomed pistes, and fast heated chairs, go to escape the crowds of foreigners.
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1. You're an expert on German dialects and accents I presume? (As you appear to be able to distinguish between Austrians, Swiss and Germans)
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Where has anybody suggested they can do that?
The study quoted (which was nothing to do with the poster you responded to) did not attempt to classify visitors by talking to them 
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2. English=the only foreign language to the Alps? You are aware there are about 1 million skiers in The Netherlands? (excluding Flanders that is...talking about accents) (Which makes it very well possible that there are more Dutch speaking skiers, than there are skiers coming from GB)
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And?
Nobody suggested anything different.
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For our hotel in Lech Germans are the nr.1 guests, with Austrians steady in 2nd place. (Dutch probably 3rd) |
Again, and?
Firstly, one hotel is hardly representative.
Secondly, the study above was, I believe talking about number of people skiing/snowboarding (i.e. "skier visits"), not number of people staying in local tourist accommodation.
Almost everybody in Austria lives within a couple of hours drive of several ski resorts, so most of their "skier visits" will be day trips.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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so most of their "skier visits" will be day trips.
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I have to agree with this. I meet loads of people in the resorts I ski that have popped out from Innsbruck for the day or are weekending, and those are just the ones that understand my crap German or speak English.
On that subject, I reckon I can tell the difference between a Munich German, an Austrian, a Schweizer Deutsch speaker (think Swedish chef) and a cloggie.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
1. You're an expert on German dialects and accents I presume? (As you appear to be able to distinguish between Austrians, Swiss and Germans)
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My german is fairly poor, six years in school and now mostly limited to when I'm skiing in Austria but I can always tell the difference. I assume you don't speak German? It's very different to Swiss German, anyone with a bit of either will tell you that
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Well, this is a bizarre tangent
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| moseyp wrote: |
| Quote: |
1. You're an expert on German dialects and accents I presume? (As you appear to be able to distinguish between Austrians, Swiss and Germans)
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My german is fairly poor, six years in school and now mostly limited to when I'm skiing in Austria but I can always tell the difference. I assume you don't speak German? It's very different to Swiss German, anyone with a bit of either will tell you that |
'melodic' tone - it is Austrian, if it is like barking - German there is a noticeble difference indeed, and I only stddied basic German for 3 years looong ago
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| mooney058 wrote: |
| moseyp wrote: |
| Quote: |
1. You're an expert on German dialects and accents I presume? (As you appear to be able to distinguish between Austrians, Swiss and Germans)
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My german is fairly poor, six years in school and now mostly limited to when I'm skiing in Austria but I can always tell the difference. I assume you don't speak German? It's very different to Swiss German, anyone with a bit of either will tell you that |
'melodic' tone - it is Austrian, if it is like barking - German there is a noticeble difference indeed, and I only stddied basic German for 3 years looong ago |
No, it's the Swiss (and Vorarlberger) who sound like they're singing! The regions of Austria have huge variations in dialect too - if there's lots of sch (Innsbruck - Inschbrugg) or u/oa (gute - guate), then it's Tirolean.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Depends what is most important to your group.
Italy is a winner for value, great food, lovely people but tends to be a bit chaotic but I quiet like that.
A couple of years ago I did two trips, one to Les Arcs and the other to Sauze d'Olux.
The lift pass in Les Arcs was €280 and was €180 in Sauze. A pint was €7-8 in Les Arcs and €4-5 in Sauze. Food was the same kind of price difference. In fairness the lift system is usually better in France
I know you asked about Austria V France but if it's value you want ( and a bit of charm) Italy is hard to beat.
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FAQ
