 Poster: A snowHead
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Pub talk. That's not correct in my experience. Have you actually ridden bottomless powder with that gear - I'd like to see a video of it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@foxtrotzulu, whatever makes you happy. Don't worry about it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The old sage that 'corrects' me tells me that for true powder it must be at least -10 deg C with little wind, which is unusual in the Alps where are climate is mainly maritime. He also subscribes to the snowball explanation and also bangs his pole horizontally into a snowbank - if the indentation does fill in like grains of sand it ain't powder. So the snowball/powder chat is absolutely valid - but which came first? I guess we would have to ask the first 'skiers' whether they threw snowballs (and I don't speak sami!).
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| Nickski wrote: |
| @foxtrotzulu, whatever makes you happy. Don't worry about it. |
Yes and no.
You don't have to "worry" about not enjoying powder. You can stay in until it got groomed.
You just don't get to "enjoy" powder.
Let's just say I've been in that position before, not "liking" powder. It took some lessons (not a lot of lesson, just a few). Then I knew the joy I was missing before. Do I wish I knew how to ski powder long ago? Not particularly. Because powder comes relatively rarely, it's really not a big part of my skiing.
Clearly, if skiing powder doesn't come "naturally", it's ok to admit it. Whether you want to do anything about it or not is a completely separate issue. After all, how much effort do you want to put in to enjoy something that you can only have unreliably?
You can also substitute in the above sentences whatever else you truly enjoy but only get to have infrequently: favorite food, drink, sex... 
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 23-05-16 2:26; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| under a new name wrote: |
@philwig, irony 
But seriously, a good skier can ski anything on anything... |
Seriously, Alberto Contador can climb Mont Blanc on a bike without gear. But why did he never use that during le Tour?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I think bad meat Bertie is no stranger to the gear.
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@philwig, i was skiing bottomless powder in 1988. (On 66mm wide 201cm long slalom skis. So were all my mates, unless they were on 207 GS sticks. Or lightweights like my wife and her sister on 195s. I'd never have lived that down, had I known her then, I can tell you! )
I don't think snowboards had been invented.*
*Joke. I know Jake Burton's first EU importer**...
** to be clear, I know someone who claims such... 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Meribel, 8 December 2012
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@rob@rar,
I remember that week. I think it was fairly bare before and then just dropped over a metre of snow the night before and then another metre just around xmas.
I didn't look as cool as you in the photo. I remember getting the chairlift up to plein sud in VT and launching off and just disappearing up to my neck in the stuff. Took ages to find the skis and then to find a tiny bit of the piste that they had managed to piste bash. They were having real problems managing the snow and got a couple of piste bashers stuck for a while.
The best powder i have skied on was last april, the week before the EOSB, when an overnight dump left about a foot of powder on top of all the pistes.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@emwmarine, yes, that's right. Snow arrived late, but was a bit insane for a few days. Was nice snow - not the coldest, lightest imaginable, but most enjoyable, especially in that well known high-altitude Pow Mecca called Meribel 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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^^We proving here that Euro pow also comes in the deep blower variety?
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You know it makes sense.
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I prefer pisted ice.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Hah hah ha hahhahahahhaahhahahauuuaua hahahahhaahhaahhahahh
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Poster: A snowHead
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@under a new name, don't sit on the fence.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I always say "everyone is different, what you choose is entirely up to you". But IMO the OP went wrong with the line "It's hard work and I find myself 'getting down the mountain' rather than skiing it". This is a matter of technique (and to some extent, equipment), not the conditions themselves.
Don't put something down because you can't do it yet. If you learn to do it, get it right, do it properly, and still don't enjoy it because it's just not your flavour that's all cool. But this is like saying you don't like a certain dish simply because you can't cook it properly.
Get some off piste lessons (it is a different technique to the piste), hire some skis with a bit more float (wider underfoot and possibly a bit longer than normal), give it an open-minded try, stick with it, see what you think, and if you still don't like it then you know it's not for you. It's far too easy to say "I don't like that and I'm perfectly happy not doing it" just because it's out of your comfort zone and you can't do it confidently.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@dp, My original comments weren't a complaint about fresh snow and I am more than happy to acknowledge that the failing is mine and that my technique is lacking. My point was slightly different. There is this aura about fresh snow where almost everyone 'oohs' and 'aahs' about it while I suspect that quite a few people, like me, don't particularly enjoy it. Yes, I could get some lessons, but the one thing I know that I don't particularly enjoy are skiing lessons. Over the years I've found they tend to be eye-wateringly expensive, difficult to arrange at short notice, poorly timed (usually over lunch), not massively enjoyable and not always very beneficial either. Then again, much of that could be the ESF and the rest of it down to me.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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And it's the Emperors new clothes.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| dp wrote: |
| this is like saying you don't like a certain dish simply because you can't cook it properly. |
Which is fair enough - how else are you supposed to judge whether you like something or not, other than by your direct experience of it?!
foxtrotzulu are you talking about skiing off piste or a layer of fresh on the piste?
(if it's the latter than it probably would be worth trying a lesson at some point, as that's sort of unavoidable other than skipping the day of skiing, isn't it?)
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It sounds as though you might have had the wrong sort of lessons, @foxtrotzulu. When I've had "off piste" lessons they've always started on piste, as unless you can get it right there, it ain't gonna work off piste. I've found that even if my forays off piste have not been massively successful (though most have been enjoyable) the work done in the lessons has greatly improved my skiing on piste. So the techniques wouldn't be wasted.
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| dp wrote: |
| ...Get some off piste lessons (it is a different technique to the piste), |
Is it different technique?
As for the mystique or the aura of "specialness", skiing light, untracked snow is very special. That doesn't mean that all off-piste conditions are more enjoyable than all on-piste conditions - ultimately isn't it all just about making linked turns as you head downhill with a smile on your face?
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @philwig, i was skiing bottomless powder in 1988. (On 66mm wide 201cm long slalom skis. ... |
Sometimes in daily cat skiing you get people who refuse to listen to advice about powder equipment, even from guides. There's no reasoning with them. They usually bring park gear, not slalom skis these days. The cat company carries spare "day saver" boards on the roof for them. Usually one easy meadow is enough to get these chaps to switch equipment. Sometimes it'll take two or three runs for the conversion, but I could sell "day savers" to those people for any price.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@philwig, haha.
My first ever afternoon heli skiing was spent on GS cheaters. It was fun but rather more tiring than my chums on their fat K2s. I learned.
The head guide was on skinny Atomic touring skis. He said tha point of powder was to ski in it, not on it.
But he had a lot more practice than me...
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| That doesn't mean that all off-piste conditions are more enjoyable than all on-piste conditions - ultimately isn't it all just about making linked turns as you head downhill with a smile on your face? |
Rattling around on refrozen chunder a long way from the haven of the groomer is pretty "special". Perversely it can still be enjoyable if you're avoiding having to scrape it out with the masses on piste.
I both agree and disagree that skiing powder requires different technique. On one level if you are on the right kit you can ski in the same way as on a softish groomer with base planing substituting for edging - however at entry level anyone relying on park n riding on an outside edge or turns facilitated by upper body rotation is going to have a bad time.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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From what I've seen most people skiing in powder use different technique as they unweight and weight their skis when turning.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
Perversely it can still be enjoyable if you're avoiding having to scrape it out with the masses on piste.
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I can't abide "scraping it out with the masses on the piste" but would prefer to relax with a drink and a good book than rattle around on refrozen chunder. When pistes are going to be crowded (only a few weeks of the year in my area), I don't bother.
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@foxtrotzulu, I do also get what you mean, but I think that the whole excitement of fresh snow stems from the appreciation of how much nicer it is to ski off-piste on something which is completely fresh, than something which has been completely tracked out by everybody else. Putting your own lines in, beyond the psychological value of "this mountain is mine!  " , there is a nicer feeling in your skis too.
If the piste is where you live (I can relate - I often go that way), then you're right really, bashed snow - with a light dusting on top to give you a little resistance to turn in - is great. And I have been on plenty of pistes on days where it's snowed so hard that since they bashed it, it's taken on another 2 feet of snow and before you know it you're waist deep, on the piste. And that sucks a bit for sure. But I genuinely think that once you are a keen and confident off-piste skier, you will come to appreciate the value of fresh pow that currently doesn't make so much sense to you.
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You know it makes sense.
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For most people, one or two weeks a year isn't long enough in the mountains to spend half of it whinging about being too hard, too soft, too bumpy, too icy, too slushy, too cold, too warm, too much snow... you ski the snow you've got. Get a good bag of tricks and it'll be fun, whatever.
That's my outlook anyway. Sit in the bar if you want, I'm going skiing 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| francium. wrote: |
| From what I've seen most people skiing in powder use different technique as they unweight and weight their skis when turning. |
Is that different technique, or just an adaption to the core skills we use in skiing regardless of the setting?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| I both agree and disagree that skiing powder requires different technique. On one level if you are on the right kit you can ski in the same way as on a softish groomer with base planing substituting for edging - however at entry level anyone relying on park n riding on an outside edge or turns facilitated by upper body rotation is going to have a bad time. |
Isn't it the case that we use the same core skiing skills, just adapt them to whatever the conditions are (and how we want to ski them)?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Isn't it the case that we use the same core skiing skills, just adapt them to whatever the conditions are (and how we want to ski them)? |
That's very illuminating - I am very sympathetic with the OP, having had my first off piste sessions at the EOSB where I struggled to remotely resemble a "real skier"  I'm definitely still trying to find these core skills - why are they so elusive?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| motel wrote: |
| I'm definitely still trying to find these core skills - why are they so elusive? |
Some things about skiing are counterintuitive, and initially you can get down slopes by a combination of bad habits and physical input. But neither of these two things make for a good foundation for progressing to skiing all the mountain, in all conditions. Sometimes it's best to get some external input to ensure your core skills are developed to a high level, whether that be lessons, videos, textbooks, copying good skiers, etc.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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1. Balance.
You MUST be centered on your skis.
2. Vertical motion.
The skis MUST be in constant motion in both planes. The horizontal plane is taken care of as you are going downhill. Vertical is the tricky part.
Of course these two things are needed for any good ski turns. On piste you have a firm surface underfoot, this provides a much greater margin for error. In powder, once the motion stops or you get off center the snow snakes WILL find you.
I don't consider this "different" technique, it definitely is an exaggeration of vertical motion. Coming into a turn I raise the inside hand way up high, often over my head. I am sure to make a smooth deep finish to each turn.
Can this be taught in a lesson? Maybe a few concepts can be introduced, but powder requires lots of mileage. I agree with an earlier poster - start with easier terrain. I would take this further - take every opportunity to ski through loose snow - even on the sides of green runs.
Oh yeah - one more REAL important thing - move slowly. As soon as you make a quick movement the snow snakes will get you.
As far as equipment goes, my current skis are 98 mm underfoot and they work very well in powder. I learned to ski powder in the 1980s on K2 slalom skis. Back then any ski was an "all mountain" ski. The technique was the same, the old skis were more exacting. The new skis are great, but not a substitute for technique.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| On one level if you are on the right kit you can ski in the same way as on a softish groomer with base planing substituting for edging |
"base planing" is a great way to tackle softer snow. Skis turn much more easily if snow is allowed to build up under the bases by running along their length to bend them, while leaned over, whereas a ski travelling sideways or flat will catch and trip. Wider skis will tolerate more sideways travel than skinny skis, making skinny more demanding in deep snow, but they can still work well if skied accurately.
Good technique can work in hard or soft snow, but coping strategies when things are less than perfect may be quite different: on hard snow an emphasis on outside ski pressure is key to getting grip, and an early pivot may be employed to keep speed under control, whilst on soft snow an early pivot is unhelpful as it doesn't allow snow to build up under the base, and outside ski pressure is of less importance because there is more than enough lateral support. In soft snow leaning the skis and running them along their length is more important, speed control coming from the buildup of snow and a round turn line. It does take commitment to avoid an early pivot and a more go-for-it approach is rewarded, moving forward into the new turn instead, which of course can can feed back into better hard snow skiing.
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| Quote: |
| Maybe a few concepts can be introduced, but powder requires lots of mileage. I agree with an earlier poster - start with easier terrain. I would take this further - take every opportunity to ski through loose snow - even on the sides of green runs. |
And I agree with this - with one alteration, which I think is another theme of the thread. Forget powder, just think off piste, skied out, crud, crust, mince, slush... it's all just a myriad of off piste conditions. And the beauty of off piste, for me at least, is to meet all those challenges - and to be able to ski them with a degree of skill and enjoyment. The opportunity to ski fresh untracked snow is fairly rare, having the opportunity to ski real powder even more so. If you only ever dabble off piste "in the right conditions" and then expect to be able to ski it fluently it is just not going to happen. It's going to be unsettling and hard work at first but you got to stick it out - keep coming back to the fundamentals of technique and it can and will happen.
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More often than not, when you ski deep powder in Europe it will often be in trees. Hence why you see so many of those classic photos.
Reason why is that following on from a big snow fall which is more often than not associated with a storm, upper lifts are often shut due to wind and more importantly avalanche risk is high so you have be careful where you ski etc etc
And when it's deep you have to ski steep gradients and at speed, otherwise you'll just get stuck!
I believe resorts are now being far more careful as to what and when they open post a big snow fall. I know that to be the case in Serre Che and even La Grave, people were expressing their surprise as to why the lift had not opened on a few days when in past seasons it might well have opened, but there again the lack of a decent base and snow lower down did produce problems.
And then the snow you get in January (cold) can be different to the snow in March / April. However given the right atmospheric conditions after a spring snow fall, that heavy fresh snow, if you get a clear cold night immediately after it can get the moisture sucked out of it and it turns to dry powder. But you only get that for one day and you have to be early, as during the day in the warm spring sunshine it melts, and the next day you have frozen croute in the morning which we all love skiing 
Though I must admit to almost enjoying the challenge of skiing crust, and OH being lighter can ski it far better than me!
We joke about this past season as how we're now much better skiers in shite off piste snow, as we had to ski a lot of it as it was not a great season with perfect conditions.
To ski fresh you have to practice practice and more (as Layne says above), ski the side of the piste, in between the pistes, ski the tracked, ski the crud, and dabble in the trees and then above all else, be prepared to get up early and do first lifts to get to the untracked.
Or as a complete aside, take up ski touring and go in Spring and enjoy the wonders of spring snow which has already been mentioned. It is so easy to ski however you need someone who understands when and where to find it, which is just as much a skill as skiing powder.
This shot was a day after the snow fall (lack of snow on the trees) after a clear night
And what was spectacular about this day*, and I have hardly ever experienced it in Europe was how the powder hung in the air as a trail of dust for a good few seconds
Christian our guide, who was letting more whoops out than us!
Lower down it was heavy.
And day before when it was snowing, good all the way down
* according to a guide mate, that day was the best conditions he'd ever experienced in ten years of skiing - inc Japan and where he was they had less snow than we had
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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FAQ
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- I read your post with some relief, but I really would like to like it 
