 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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One day the French will wake to the fact there are resorts outside of France and wonder where the Brits have gone. We used to ski Val D'Isere every year without fail and now go to Austria and Switzerland and wish we had done this earlier. If you do want to ski in France then my challenge to you is to find a fully qualified instructor and not a stagiaire or someone grandfathered under their system. The French do manipulate the rules, and why not it is their country!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| miranda wrote: |
Maybe "the French" just don't like 50 something men from Surrey  |
That's Meribel stuffed then.
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So, let's say that hiking was a really, really popular sport in the UK. The French have decided to set up guiding operations all over (Pennines, Lake District, Exmoor, etc). I have a feeling there would be criticism and a push to shut them down....
It is their land, and their business. EU work rights are irrelevant. We're not talking about Brits taking jobs at French companies. We're talking about Brits setting up companies in another country, which is a completely different situation.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| boofit wrote: |
| EU work rights are irrelevant. |
 Any other laws that you think should be ignored?
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| boofit wrote: |
So, let's say that hiking was a really, really popular sport in the UK. The French have decided to set up guiding operations all over (Pennines, Lake District, Exmoor, etc). I have a feeling there would be criticism and a push to shut them down....
It is their land, and their business. EU work rights are irrelevant. We're not talking about Brits taking jobs at French companies. We're talking about Brits setting up companies in another country, which is a completely different situation. |
I am think your understanding of the principles of EU Freedom of movement is somewhat underwhelming.
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| boofit wrote: |
So, let's say that hiking was a really, really popular sport in the UK. The French have decided to set up guiding operations all over (Pennines, Lake District, Exmoor, etc). I have a feeling there would be criticism and a push to shut them down....
It is their land, and their business. EU work rights are irrelevant. We're not talking about Brits taking jobs at French companies. We're talking about Brits setting up companies in another country, which is a completely different situation. |
Shut McDonalds, KFC, IKEA the list goes on they are foreign company's setting up business in the UK.
Now do you see how pathetic your statements are??
Maybe not but you do need to learn that EU laws have to be adopted by all member nations re working rights. We may not like it at times the French may not like it or the Germans but they are the rules you abide by them or suffer the consequences.
Oh and by the way hiking/fell-walking is pretty popular here in the UK, and is regulated in France if memory serves me right as a friend was training as a guide in the Pyrenees.
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| speed098 wrote: |
| boofit wrote: |
So, let's say that hiking was a really, really popular sport in the UK. The French have decided to set up guiding operations all over (Pennines, Lake District, Exmoor, etc). I have a feeling there would be criticism and a push to shut them down....
It is their land, and their business. EU work rights are irrelevant. We're not talking about Brits taking jobs at French companies. We're talking about Brits setting up companies in another country, which is a completely different situation. |
Shut McDonalds, KFC, IKEA the list goes on they are foreign company's setting up business in the UK.
Now do you see how pathetic your statements are??. |
Without stirring the pot too much- The quote from boofit about "their land and their business" does go along way to explain the attitude of many locals. Unsurprisingly most of them are not particularly interested in EU law. One can also see how people from other EU countries which scrupulously obey the rules can get annoyed!
The French consider the mountains as a national resource, much as we consider(ed) North Sea oil. Now in the latter case, you might argue that the UK populace got a pretty crap deal. Perhaps we should look at ourselves a little too?
As a final comment, I once spent some time in a large EU body, where staffing was supposed to represent the contributions of member states. Of course when we had an Italian or a German in charge, their countrymen and women got a good deal. When we had a UK boss, it was softly softly, let peoples qualifications speak for themselves etc, respect the market...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Boofit - sorry but lots of foreign countries set up businesses and work in the UK and vice versa, this issue seems to arise mainly in certain industries.
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After the trouble SB had, I don't understand why they haven't just got the required qualies just in case. How hard can they be ?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| thecramps wrote: |
| After the trouble SB had, I don't understand why they haven't just got the required qualies just in case. How hard can they be ? |
Hard enough that the vast majority of serving French instructors over the age of 35 couldn't get them themselves today.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| thecramps wrote: |
| After the trouble SB had, I don't understand why they haven't just got the required qualies just in case. How hard can they be ? |
Hard enough that the vast majority of serving French instructors over the age of 35 couldn't get them themselves today. |
Really? Please explain. Are there stats for this or is that hear say? I'm not trying to be obtuse, but I read plenty on here defending SB and his situation, but elsewhere people seemed to wonder why his instructors just didn't just do the speed test and be done with it. Or was there more to that too?
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The speed test criteria are such that it is pretty hard for anyone over 40 to achieve them ( taking into account ability to recover from injuries sustained in training). Plus of e.g. the many BASI L4s that are fully qualified I believe a significant number were grandfathered in and haven't been subject to the current test. It's as clear example of "do as I say not what I've done" as you can come across.
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You know it makes sense.
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My point was that if roles were reversed, I could see the same thing happening here in the UK. So, let's not be entitled, and possibly hypocritical. If you don't like it, you don't have to visit France.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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And they integrate and pay taxes...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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There are many jobs and professions throughout europe where local qualification is required.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Some contributors might like to read my post on a related thread, which should aid understanding of being able to work in different EU member states (part) reproduced below:
So one of the central issues to this is that in the UK (and it is largely a UK issue given that regulation of employment is largely a matter reserved to the UK Government) has traditionally not regulated professions, this is an historic / cultural issue which has been common to governments of various complexions. There has been creeping regulation for example medicine, pharmacy, the law and branches of accountancy have long been regulated. Other regulation tends to be in response to events or circumstances. It was not long ago that we could all bodge the electrics of our houses, now we have to have a certified electrician to sign off our handy-work. However, you I and any Tom, Dick or Harriet can still call themselves a baker or bricklayer, with impunity – the results of my efforts in these areas are very similar. Traditionally trade bodies ... have regulated occupations, this is supplemented by (professional liability) insurance. Insurance companies will in turn tend to rely on the membership of trade bodies to affirm an individual’s competence. The average consumer of services ... will not seek evidence of professional liability insurance. In other countries you will need government approved qualifications before you can call yourself the aforementioned ‘Baker’ the German system is probably the most easy to understand in these circumstances.
The UK system by and large has stood us in good stead over the years, but causes problems when it comes up against different systems operated in other jurisdictions (think, imperial vs. metric, driving on the left rather than the right). It does largely account for such programmes as ‘Rogue Traders’, in other countries the subjects of such programmes would simply be the subject of the criminal law...
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@Hells Bells, to the limited extent I understand it, yes.
Th operation is set up to provide (presumably) talented junior UK aspirant racers with a full time Uk curriculum education alongside race training in an alpine environment.
That may go some way to explain a UK coy. registration.
I don't see what's wrong with that in theory.
As I understand it, while many of the coaches are Uk, the whole thing could only function by being closely integrated into the local community including the ESF.
I suspect that the ESF are subcontracted to provide coaching.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| under a new name wrote: |
@Hells Bells, to the limited extent I understand it, yes.
Th operation is set up to provide (presumably) talented junior UK aspirant racers with a full time Uk curriculum education alongside race training in an alpine environment.
That may go some way to explain a UK coy. registration.
I don't see what's wrong with that in theory.
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I believe the rule is that if you bring customers from the UK, and only accept money in pounds through a UK bank account, you can run as a UK company. This means that you can employ staff- even those who live full time in France- as 'consultants'. I believe that there are significant savings to be made by not paying social contributions as you would for local employees. As a rule, the cost of an employee in France is 2 x salary. There are other things like having to ensure union presence, comite d'entreprise, etc which must be funded by the employer and kick in as the number of employees grows past certain ceilings. You can also fire them easily! All of the familiar UK owned skiing firms that I have used operate in a similar manner.
Perfectly legal, although you can see how locals might get jealous of companies operating like this in their backyard. Given that many skiing companies partner with UK registered accommodation companies etc, there could be a fairly large hit to the local tax payer. Of course, the French get lift pass sales, local restaurant custom etc.
For me it is intelligent business within the rules. Don't hate the player, hate the game I suppose. Now, anyone know how to translate that into French?  I would re-iterate that I know nothing about this particular business and am commenting in general terms. Of course, maybe there is a qualified business person out there who can correct/add to the above, as I am also no expert.
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| JamesHJ wrote: |
| under a new name wrote: |
@Hells Bells, to the limited extent I understand it, yes.
Th operation is set up to provide (presumably) talented junior UK aspirant racers with a full time Uk curriculum education alongside race training in an alpine environment.
That may go some way to explain a UK coy. registration.
I don't see what's wrong with that in theory.
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I believe the rule is that if you bring customers from the UK, and only accept money in pounds through a UK bank account, you can run as a UK company. This means that you can employ staff- even those who live full time in France- as 'consultants'. |
I don't think that is correct and I think the Ryanair case demonstrated that a different interpretation is taken.
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| emwmarine wrote: |
| JamesHJ wrote: |
| under a new name wrote: |
@Hells Bells, to the limited extent I understand it, yes.
Th operation is set up to provide (presumably) talented junior UK aspirant racers with a full time Uk curriculum education alongside race training in an alpine environment.
That may go some way to explain a UK coy. registration.
I don't see what's wrong with that in theory.
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I believe the rule is that if you bring customers from the UK, and only accept money in pounds through a UK bank account, you can run as a UK company. This means that you can employ staff- even those who live full time in France- as 'consultants'. |
I don't think that is correct and I think the Ryanair case demonstrated that a different interpretation is taken. |
I agree that it is possible you are correct , however, do Ryanair not earn money in France from French resident customers? All the UK ski companies are adamant that you must pay in Sterling through UK bank accounts. Not much traction in trying to pay in Euros!
Incidentally, Ryanairs defence was that ""European employment and social security law clearly allows mobile workers on Irish-registered aircraft, working for an Irish airline, to pay their taxes and social taxes in Ireland.""
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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"Many thanks to Regional Minister Marguerettaz and colleagues, and to the ski lift company and regional associations, for welcoming the BSA and our coaching team to the Aosta valley." Well done Italy!
"letters of support have been forthcoming from the British and International ski federations and from the Les Houches ski lift company and local ESF" ... "the Etoile des Neiges will function next winter as a regular hotel for the public."
French Nose to face spite bitten off own?
It's a bit of a shocker really. The Les Houches economy isn't having a particularly great time of it...I bet they're not best pleased.
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On the other hand if they fill the Hotel with normal punters who buy beer, ski lessons and lift passes maybe Les Houches will do better than school kods who spend little.
Only time will tell.......
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I think the fact that the hotel was full for the whole season, and as well as the races that the BSA hosted, this means a loss of income to the area. The BSA interschools races were very well attended. So off to Pila, where Impulse are already based, thumbs upto the Italians and tough on the French, still weve preferred the Aosta Valley for some time now, but we try to keep it quiet 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@chocksaway, have you been to Les Houches, mid-week, outside of the French Vacances Scolaires?
It is not a busy place...
Let me see, if I was a hotelier, would I swap a guaranteed contract to fill all beds, providing food and indeed beer to tired thirsty coaches and teachers, perhaps at a discounted rate, tontaking my chances on the open market, especially after a season where you couldn't ski to the village until January, and not again from end of march or so?
I know what i'd prefer...
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@under a new name, Fair enough, never been to the place. I didn't realise it was a endangered species!
Anybody got any intelligence on who made the complaint to prompt the Police action, given that they appear to have been welcome in this small corner of La République?
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You know it makes sense.
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| chocksaway wrote: |
| Anybody got any intelligence on who made the complaint to prompt the Police action, given that they appear to have been welcome in this small corner of La République? |
Wouldn't BSA have needed to apply for work permits for the coaches ? Maybe it has taken until now for Paris to get around to ordering the PGHM to do something.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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But why the PGHM? And why did they go to Val?
Smells...
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Poster: A snowHead
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| under a new name wrote: |
.......
Smells... |
Rather like the superb French cheese Epoisse!
France is indeed a wonderful country, ........... sadly ruined by the French. Pompous protectionism at its obvious yet again.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| skimastaaah wrote: |
| under a new name wrote: |
.......
Smells... |
France is indeed a wonderful country, ........... sadly ruined by the French. Pompous protectionism at its obvious yet again. |
A bit like Scotland.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| emwmarine wrote: |
| skimastaaah wrote: |
| under a new name wrote: |
.......
Smells... |
France is indeed a wonderful country, ........... sadly ruined by the French. Pompous protectionism at its obvious yet again. |
A bit like Scotland. |
Ouch!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Bit unfair, there's not that many French in Scotland
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@emwmarine, @balernoStu, @Ghost Dog, Maybe Scottish Ski Resorts should bann all things French!
Just imagine the combined spending power of British (including Scottish) skiers NOT buying anything French. For example French skis, French ski boots, French bindings, French ski clothes. In fact anything even midly associated with French anything to do with skiing!
Despite some of the best skiing in the world and some of the best ski resorts in the world I gave up skiing in France about 8 years ago, mainly due to the persistent indifference of the French. Not to mention the over-pricing in resorts and on-mountain.
I'm not calling for a boycott, just be selective if you feel inclined to do so. 
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@skimastaaah, really?
Bueller?
So what are you going to boycott? Salomon? (Not very French)... Croissants?
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| under a new name wrote: |
@skimastaaah, really?
Bueller?
So what are you going to boycott? Salomon? (Not very French)... Croissants? |
Yup .............. buy Austrian, Italian, German........... or should I boycott these because they were Axis Powers?
Nope........... just choose NOT to be tempted by those annoying Frenchies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*apologies to our Snowhead Francophiles for my blatant Frenchie-Bashing!* 
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| skimastaaah wrote: |
| @emwmarine, @balernoStu, @Ghost Dog, I gave up skiing in France about 8 years ago, |
That's great. That means i'm not likely to run into you then.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@emwmarine,
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| emwmarine wrote: |
| skimastaaah wrote: |
| @emwmarine, @balernoStu, @Ghost Dog, I gave up skiing in France about 8 years ago, |
That's great. That means i'm not likely to run into you then. |
But you'll run into plenty of Russians, and kn0b head Brits with their brats in tow having ze pique-nique lunchy, wearing Tog 24 ski gear!!
Sorry, France has had its day as a place enjoy the skiing, overpriced, overly busy, overtly obnoxious, over-rated. That's possibly the attractions for most Brits with all the gear and no real idea.
Try Switzerland, Zermatt.
Zut alors!
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Sat 7-05-16 17:45; edited 1 time in total
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