 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| ise wrote: |
| The UK test looks more stringent then when I took it and yet the standard´s going down as far as I can tell from my infrequent visits. |
The standard of driving in the Uk may be getting worse, but our roads are getting safer. Is there any evidence that pistes are becoming more dangerous places to be?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I wonder how much the tools we use are responsible for that... ABS, independent suspension, and the like. Ditto with the shorter carving skis - you'd think that less skilled skiers would have more control as a result...
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| PG wrote: |
| I wonder how much the tools we use are responsible for that... ABS, independent suspension, and the like. Ditto with the shorter carving skis - you'd think that less skilled skiers would have more control as a result... |
You're probably right in suggesting a similar cause but I'd suggest it's traffic density. Driving here in CH is much easier (where I live anyway), there's less traffic, people are more prepared to give a little.
I drove through the middle of Fribourg at "rush hour" this morning and it was easy, even Geneva at 8:30 on a Monday morning is fine. There's just less people.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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ise
I know we gone off tangent again but comparing using the road with using the piste is relevant.
For those who drive frequently in EU there is no mistake that some Europeans are more polite and observing the laws more rigorously than the others. I would single out the Swiss having the best nature drivers, especially on country roads.
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Ooo goodee - this is going to get like the language thread. Here goes...
The Portuguese are notorious for being the worst drivers in the EU - though I believe things have improved somewhat in recent years.
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| saikee wrote: |
ise
I know we gone off tangent again but comparing using the road with using the piste is relevant.
For those who drive frequently in EU there is no mistake that some Europeans are more polite and observing the laws more rigorously than the others. I would single out the Swiss having the best nature drivers, especially on country roads. |
There's just not the number of people on the road, I think that's all there is to it. BMW's are still driven just the same as every other country, young lads still drive too fast, all the usual stuff.
But, driving to work at 8:30 in the morning is just a breeze, there's hardly any traffic, certainly not enough to back up at roundabouts. In fact I'd say it was extremely rare for there to be a car in front of me at a roundabout on the way to work. It makes the thing more relaxed.
I'm pretty sure on empty pistes and lifts you see the same relaxation. Next week round VdI will be about the same.
Of course the Swiss are pretty relaxed and calm anyway, it's the satisfaction of knowing you've a cellar full of automatic weapons probably.
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| ise wrote: |
| Of course the Swiss are pretty relaxed and calm anyway, it's the satisfaction of knowing you've a cellar full of automatic weapons probably. |
Just don't mention airlines 
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DavidS,
I take comfort in not knowing any piste I could ski in Portugal.
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Ise
Many areas in France and Italy are pretty deserted. Germany is also huge by comparison. Norway has less than 4.5 millions people and their national speed limit is lower too. Somehow I find the Swiss roads are clean, border fence always fully erected, drivers seems to be good nature, road signs are plentiful and most people seem to be able to speak good English to support your statement driving is easy there.
It is definitely cooler especially when one cross over from Italy and France in the summer.
The problem I have is that everthing there is expensive. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I think that driving in Italy is most like skiing - in that drivers only really bother with predicting what the cars in front of them are likely to do and assume that they take priority over anyone behind them...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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To return to the original thread, saikee gets it right on the nose here:
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In my limited experience with North American resorts I must admit my admiration of the ski patrols in Whistler. There are always around to talk to skiers doing things that are not supposed to and have the right to remove their ski passes. They would tell people off politely to move away downstream of a summit point where incoming skiers may not have adequate vision and crash into them. They also shout and chase anybody skiing too fast on the slope.
Never seen such thing in Europe even if such thing exists here.
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In the US and Canada, the Ski Patrol is very proactive in promoting safe skiing. Thay CAN and DO pull people's lift passes if they transgress.
However, the ski areas are generally smaller, which makes it easier for the patrol to cover them.
Another difference is that in North America, it's far less common to see snow users having a long, essentially liquid lundh. I wonder how many accidents are caused by drunks?
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This is getting interesting.... hmmmmmm! It does seem strange to me that Britain has such a good road safety record compared to most EU countries - whenever I go back I'm terrified by the sheer weight of the traffic for the first hour or so. Of course then I hit the M25 ......
As far as skiers/boarders are concerned I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that boarders are necessarily ruder or worse than skiers, indeed I always take the trouble to explain to my students that the easiest thing to do on skis (going straight) is the hardest thing to do on a board. Also that with the latest "across the board" stance, the boarder has no vision when starting to turn backside (on the heel edge for non-boarders). I learnt on an alpine carving board where you have much better vision. In general I think skiers are more dangerous because they go faster and you have less chance of hearing them coming.
It does seem to me that many people are not acquainted with the rules of the piste, or only with the ones they choose: last year I was rushing down a blue run to my next lesson (going very fast), came to a crest, took a turn to check out if there was anyone there and saw a skier standing OFF the piste a little below. As I approached she just skied straight out into the piste without looking. Fortunately, although I was going extremely fast, I was ski-ing within my limits, and was able to avoid her - very nasty moment though!
I do not have any statistics to prove that the pistes are getting more dangerous, but it's just an observation from a pro ski-ing approx. 30 weeks a year. It's definitely linked to speed and lack of technique. In the summer on our glacier, you almost never feel in danger because the standard of ski-ing is so high, and although the skiers are travelling faster, one can see them looking ahead and anticipating.
The worst is when the Parisians are around - they ski how they drive in Paris! Not trying to be racist here, by the way, again an observation. 
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You know it makes sense.
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Acacia, I believe Espace Killy tried something similar a few years ago, but having taken the lift pass away from a dangerous skier, were sued and lost. This is only heresay, but I understand the situation was that a) having sold something you can't then claim it back; and b) you buy the right to use the lifts not the pistes. I don't know if PG has any more information than I do about this. In any case here in Les Deux Alpes there are loads of different landowners, so I can't see how we could sell a piste user permit, as the lift company is a private company - they do all the investment and so on and need the liftpass revenue.
When I started in the job 30 years ago, instructors, pisteurs and lifties had some authority, but now we have none; some of my male colleagues have actually been punched for remonstrating with people!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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ise, I did say I didn't want to specifically pick on boarders, it's just thayt my own personal experiences, ( and only seroius collision), have been due to the inconsiderate behaviour of snowboarders, I accept that skiers are probably also to blame. It is probably 'yoof culture' more than anything. No offence meant.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Helen Beaumont wrote: |
| ise, I did say I didn't want to specifically pick on boarders, it's just thayt my own personal experiences, ( and only seroius collision), have been due to the inconsiderate behaviour of snowboarders, I accept that skiers are probably also to blame. It is probably 'yoof culture' more than anything. No offence meant. |
And the minority I refer to includes people like you Helen.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Philip Prior, i did say that i didn't want to specifically pick on boarders. If I had been hit in the back by a skier, and knocked unconcious it would have been equally as bad. However, we were asked our opinions, which tend to be based on personal experience. I'm sorry if you were offended.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| PG wrote: |
| I wonder how much the tools we use are responsible for that... ABS, independent suspension, and the like. Ditto with the shorter carving skis - you'd think that less skilled skiers would have more control as a result... |
-do you think the shorter, carving skis, mean we all take fewer lessons, and are not as wose about piste safety as we used to be?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| ise wrote: |
| No they don't, this is like starting a sentence "I'm not a racist but" This logic is one of the small building blocks used by the some skiers to justify their behaviour. |
I think that you might have got the wrong impression about my opinion. I ski and snowboard on about a fifty fifty basis, being about the same level of competence on both. I have yet to work out how to do short radius turns on my board down a steep black run, like I do on my skis. When I am on my board I tend to do sweeping large radius turns, which although I can also do on my skis, I don't tend to. For this reason, when I ski, I tend to take a more direct line down the mountain than I would on my board. From my experience this is the same with most other skiers and boarders as well and therefore I stand by my original statement.
I wasn't making a judgement against one method or another, just pointing out that this fact makes collisions between skiers and boarders, more likely than between skiers and skiers, or boarders and boarders. Instead of looking to blame someone because they use a different method to get down the slope than you, perhaps we would be better served developing our awareness of our surroundings.
I would agree with a previous statement that boarders (IMHO) tend to be nicer than skiers. For those of you with an anti boarder bias, I would recommend making friends with some, and going out on the mountain with them, they'll make you think about using the mountain and terrain in a different way to most skiers, and you'll probably have a great time. Some of my best skiing/riding days have been skiing with boarders or vice versa.
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We've done 6 weeks of instruction in Austria, Switzerland and France and at no time did any instructor make a particular point about piste ettiquette, however there were cartoons in various gondolas covering various points.
The only experience of bad behaviour I've seen is people (skier or boarder) passing me very close, at speed, they may or may not be in control, but as a relative novice it is disconcerting. I also note that people don't tend to think very much about where they're stopping and the effect of a number of people stopping in the same place - i.e. close to the exit of a lift, or at the top of a steep section.
I don't think I've ever seen anybody hurtling out of control but I do see people travelling at a speed where I don't think they would have the ability to react to unexpected events.
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| Philip Prior wrote: |
| Countless times I have seen competent skiers (inc instructors) show off by caning it down an easy blue at great speed and often close to beginners. |
Philip, you're quite right: I don't think I have ever seen boarders behaving in this way. It is common with skiers.
Boarders, rightly or wrongly, do have a reputation for causing accidents. Boarding is relatively new and associated with youth, both unfortunately reasons for criticism. I think the record, Philip, is going to keep playing for some time yet.
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Skanky wrote:
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Having never (really) boarded, it took me ages to realise that sometimes overtaking a boarder on a trail, in the same manner as a skier, can cause them problems. I wasn't being inconsiderate, I just had no idea how a boarder steers or brakes
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Could Skanky (or a boarder) please explain how overtaking a boarder on a trail can cause them problems? I wasn't aware of this, and would like to know what NOT to do. Thanks!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Jonpim wrote: |
| Philip Prior wrote: |
| Countless times I have seen competent skiers (inc instructors) show off by caning it down an easy blue at great speed and often close to beginners. |
Philip, you're quite right: I don't think I have ever seen boarders behaving in this way. It is common with skiers.
Boarders, rightly or wrongly, do have a reputation for causing accidents. Boarding is relatively new and associated with youth, both unfortunately reasons for criticism. I think the record, Philip, is going to keep playing for some time yet. |
I have seen both skiers and boarders do this, and it is both inconsiderate and dangerous. At the area where I worked this year, any instructor caught doing that would be sacked and have his pass confiscated (and rightly so, I think).
Anyone who does this to "show off" is likely not that good a skier, anyway.
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I don't think I've ever seen anybody hurtling out of control but I do see people travelling at a speed where I don't think they would have the ability to react to unexpected events.
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I think this is the definition of being out of control
ssh, I agree that to do this to show off proves you are not a good skier. I always try to give novice skiers a wide berth and teach my students to do the same. However here in France we often have one lesson ending and the next starting at the same time, (I work in 2 hour blocks, 4 lessons per day in the holiday weeks) to give each lesson the maximum time and value we may not necessarily bring the finishing lesson down to the town/lower meeting place, and consequently have to rush from one part of the mountain to another (see my previous post), natuarally we will cut it fine and have to ski at speed.
Ski-ing fast, however, is not the same thing as ski-ing dangerously when you have the level to do it. Ski-ing too close to novices is DEFINITELY bad behaviour:(
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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easiski, I see that what I said wasn't quite clear. What I meant was that I'd never seen someone rapidly, but unintentionally so - default behaviour seems to be to fall over!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Lollie wrote: |
| Could Skanky (or a boarder) please explain how overtaking a boarder on a trail can cause them problems? I wasn't aware of this, and would like to know what NOT to do. Thanks! |
I'm not a boarder, so I'm sure someone else will give a better explanation but (I think) boarders find it difficult to go straight down the fall line. They always need to be on one edge or the other, so the only way to go straight is to change from one to the other. If you are skiing and someone pulls in front of you, you can snowplough - losing a bit of speed, but not much. On a board you have to do a sharper turn, usually resulting in a lot of speed being lost, and them blocking the whole track.
Boarders, please correct me if I'm wrong.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Lollie wrote: |
Skanky wrote:
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Having never (really) boarded, it took me ages to realise that sometimes overtaking a boarder on a trail, in the same manner as a skier, can cause them problems. I wasn't being inconsiderate, I just had no idea how a boarder steers or brakes
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Could Skanky (or a boarder) please explain how overtaking a boarder on a trail can cause them problems? I wasn't aware of this, and would like to know what NOT to do. Thanks! |
Here's what not to do from Tony lane above:
"On a number of occasions a skier as drifted along beside me (usually very close on my heelside so that i cannot switch to that edge and therefore have my steering and braking options cut by 50%) and then casually drifted in front forcing me to scrub off some speed or even stop completely. "
It's easy to adversely affect a skier in a similar way if you're too close, so the best thing is if you're overtaking anyone, try and do it on a straight(ish) bit, give them warning, leave them room and get away from them once ahead (staying to the side).
I may have described that wrong, but it works for me. Not left any irate boarders (or skiers) in my wake in the last two years.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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That's about it and, as also mentioned above, you can get a skier in a blind spot that you can hear and not really see. I've to mention this to a couple of friends when I've been on a board, it's something I find quite off-putting.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Can I go off tangent a bit ?
I have tried to avoid crowds by going to slopes and lifts with less people. Thus I wouldn't hesitate to go for a red slope or even a black one, if it looks OK, just to avoid people (equivalent to the blue and single black in North America). It is my experience that there are fewer skiers and boarders in these slopes and they seldom hehave badly. And it doesn't matter if you are a boarder or a skier too.
I know skiers and boarders will have more experience by the time they appear in these slope and greener slope users tend to make more mistakes. So is the bad behaviour is transitory only and we all grow out of it eventually?
Don't think many slope users can afford to behave badly on a red or a black slope if they want to come out of it in one piece. One thing for sure speed is not going to be a problem for those who can control it.
Have I missed out all this fun by getting the thrill out of coping with the difficulties instead of doing it at speed?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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On the subject of overtaking boarders, I am a good skier but a novice boarder so I can see both sides of the argument. Certainly on narrow runs, beginner skiers are easier to overtake as they tend to dump speed by snowploughing, but still travelling in the same direction. Beginner boarders on narrow runs really have to do a relatively difficult quick heelside scrape to dump speed, so any skiers overtaking them should be aware of this and if possible overtake on the boarder's toeside.
Also one thing I noticed while boarding in Snowbird this year was that good skiers who were overtaking me on narrow runs would shout "on your right" (I'm regular) before they overtook me on my toeside. This is exactly what is required, and yet I have only seen this with good skiers in the US. Maybe we should all do both sports, then we'd understand the problems better!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Plake wrote: |
| Maybe we should all do both sports, then we'd understand the problems better! |
Probably not practical but it'd be great, this them and us nonsense would soon vanish of course.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Also I guess that people shout in the US because most people speak English (or a variation of  ). Shouting in France, for example, could just panic people who don't understand, and make you sound aggressive.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I ski and have only been in collisions with other skiers, never a boarder.
I'm suprised at some of the holier-than-thou sentiments in this thread. We all make mistakes and lose control, otherwise no-one would ever fall for example. Following the guidelines simply reduces the number of collisions, it will not eliminate them.
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Helen, apologies for being so terse, but comments like that do get my back up a bit. No hard feelings.
The control of a boarder on a catrack/flat road depends on their ability. For a beginner they can be an nightmare. As a learner I dreaded them since when I braked with an edge I turned heavy, slowed down and took up considerable part of the limited space available and probably annoyed people behind me. A beginner skier has the advantage of just snowploughing or going straight at low speed. There is no answer to this and as a boarder you just have to face being a hindrance until you improve.
A good rider will then just "tap" the edges or alternatively "butter" the rear of the board to keep control, then you take up less piste space and become less annoying!
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I 'll often tell someone when coming through which side - though I'll try and use the language of the country I'm in, so I don't know how well it works. Otherwise, I'll get onto the side of the track I'll be on and make a noise and tap my poles. That seems to work, too.
It's difficult overtaking on the toeside if the boarder's put hie/her toes close to edge to give themselves more room on their heel side (or whatever other reason), though.
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The key to overtaking a boarder on a cat track is to give them a bit of space whichever side you do it. A skier can easily go in a straight line on a cat track and so it would be possible for two skiers to happily glide along side by side.
Boarders can stay on one edge and go straight but it is not very comfortable. Mostly, boarders will go down a cat track in a drawn out S shape. The better the boarder, the less obvious the S and the less space is taken up, but there will always need to be some space.
Therefore, if you want to overtake a boarder, my tips are: let them know you're there, give them a little space and then keep going - do not move up beside them and carry on at their speed and do not drift in front (shouldn't do that with a skier either, of course).
I am convinced that most of this is a simple and understandable lack of mutual understanding but it should be improving as skiers get used to boarders (boarders have always had to be used to skiers and so have less reason to claim lack of understanding of how skiers move - but also there is less evidence of it IMO)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Tony Lane wrote: |
Therefore, if you want to overtake a boarder, my tips are: let them know you're there, give them a little space and then keep going - do not move up beside them and carry on at their speed and do not drift in front (shouldn't do that with a skier either, of course).
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good advice generally as well, I quite often bang my poles together coming down tracks if I think the person in front isn't aware of me.
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It's all about timing too. I tuck up behind a slow boarder on a catrack wait till they turn right left/right and cut in the opposite side and will be past them before they begin to turn back (depending on space and traffic of course).
Tony is right, get past in the shortest possible time.
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FAQ
show off by caning it down an easy blue at great speed and often close to beginners. A hit at that speed only ends with broken bones.
