 Poster: A snowHead
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SkiPresto wrote:
Summarising:-
(Edited)
Mistress Panda wrote:
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@SkiPresto, @GrahamN, so they skied an itineraire, after asking at the hut at the top and being given the ok, presumably an ideal opportunity for whoever was in the hut to say "you can ski it, but the avalanche risk is high at the moment, and it is off piste because no piste markers are out, have you guys got any avi gear?" - and none of that happened.
We assume that the slide was started by the group, and they were dragged further down onto the normal pistes below, where many other punters were skiing.... |
Yes, Mistress Panda. Your assessment there is reasonable - that (whether the pisteurs gave it the OK or not for the avalanched groups to go offpiste) the group purposely skied the (unmarked / offpiste) top run (Paquerettes) and were taken by an avalanche on to the marked pistes below (Trolles probably). (edited)
I hope that you are now a bit more sure that you didn't make a mistake that took you in at the top of the Paquerettes. It looks like you didn't ski any part of Paquerettes. I think you skied round the usual blue piste (Henri) from the top of Tufs chairlift station and down the usual path to the area where the Aeroski lift passes over at the point where the Trolles (Marked Black) commences and goes off down to Lavacher/ Lac. (From your next post (and earlier post), You say (below) that this occurred half an hour prior to the fatal slide. This may explain why I couldn't follow your statements.
Clarky wrote:
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| I get the impression that you're talking about different slopes, albeit in the same area... |
Yes. That looks like what's going on here.
The only reason I'm persisting with this is to try to reassure folks that this incident wasn't some unlucky nav "wrong turn" mistake that anyone could have made from the piste.
I agree with eye witness GrahamN when he says :
| Quote: |
| The slide started well above the piste, and there is no way you can get to that slope "by acccident" off of the main descent. You have to make a very deliberate double back from the exit of the top-stations in a completely different direction from the main piste down from Toviere. There is no way those people were there unintentionally. In those conditions it was rash to ski with full avi gear (not least because of the danger you created for those on piste below), but without avi gear it was EXACTLY the criminally stupid act others believe it to be. |
Malaise Meleze writes (To Mistress Panda)
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| " Making the same navigation mistake does not make you necessarily criminally stupid. But it is something to think about ...and you obviously have. |
But Mistress Panda didn't make a navigational error. She was on the piste, albeit she has now explained that it was some time prior to the avalanche on the steeps above. The avalanched group didn't make a "Navigational Mistake" they were deliberately led offpiste down the Paquerettes steeps.
In my view, the big error of judgement was skiing offpiste at all (let alone leading two large groups off) just after the first snows of the season, where there is no consolidated base. No pro's would do that, even with a well-equipped group in clear vis. And we know that this offpiste group were not equipped properly, and the slope can't have been assessible owing to the misty vis.
I would note that:-
The reason I mention this error of judgement as the problem rather than the non-use of transceivers is: Transceivers do not add to safety. They don't protect you from an avalanche. Transceivers are for rescuing, and that's different. The leaders are there to make good decisions every time, not to rely on transceivers to keep them out of jail. It's good decision-making that protects you from avalanches.
Also:-
I'm not convinced of the truth of "_titi"'s statement that they got permission ("on avait l'aval des pisteurs pour y aller") with the pisteur at the top of Paquerettes. She was also fully supportive of her trainer, the ones who made the fatal decision to ski offpiste on the Paquerettes that day.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 12-08-15 14:29; edited 2 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@SkiPresto, just for clarity, we weren't digging people out of avalanche debris, this was before it all happened and we were digging people out of snow so deep and light they were struggling to get back to their feet. Many of the people on that run had clearly never encountered really deep snow before, and certainly had no intention of being off piste.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Mistress Panda Thanks for the clarification that you skied and helped people on the piste, in deep snow below the offpiste avalanche slope - but that this was some time prior to it occurring. I've corrected the summary above in the light of this.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Interesting to read this thread. I can clearly remember being taken onto this slope when we did our off piste training course a few years ago, held in early December as I recall. As someone else has commented, the little chutes are quite steep and will funnel a slide if the conditions are unstable. It's a nice slope in the right conditions.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| halfhand wrote: |
Slightly OT but I thought Itineraires were patrolled and avalanche controlled and hence full off piste avalanche equipment was not required? Yes/no or is it a case of "mmm, well maybe" |
I can't see anyone answering this (though I might have missed it. Yes, I understood that itineraries are avalanche controlled in the sense that if an itinerary is considered to have avalanche danger it is marked as closed. Certainly that is the case in some countries. Either way this seems like something that should be specified on all piste maps and be the same everywhere.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| snowball wrote: |
| halfhand wrote: |
Slightly OT but I thought Itineraires were patrolled and avalanche controlled and hence full off piste avalanche equipment was not required? Yes/no or is it a case of "mmm, well maybe" |
I can't see anyone answering this (though I might have missed it. Yes, I understood that itineraries are avalanche controlled in the sense that if an itinerary is considered to have avalanche danger it is marked as closed. Certainly that is the case in some countries. Either way this seems like something that should be specified on all piste maps and be the same everywhere. |
In Austria *normally* they are avalanche controlled but not patrolled, and may or may not be marked on the ground with poles. Also not always roped off when closed - though closures will be indicated on the piste map boards.
However there are some places where they are totally uncontrolled offpiste routes, just marked on the map.
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The person died because the person responsible for them failed to look after them.
This ^ sums it all up
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@clarky999, Sorry hadn't read your post before I replied to snowball 
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@halfhand, I think it depends on the resort - there's usually an explanation on the piste map about what they are. In Tignes specifically they are called naturides, and are controlled and patrolled:
http://www.tignes.net/en/skiing-in-tignes/slope-grooming-111.html
The same is true of the "piste natur" runs you find in Paradiski.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Halfhand wrote:
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If I come upon an itineraire/ski route and it is not marked as closed then is it acceptable to ski it without full avi gear?
My assumption (yes you can) would appear contrary to SkiPresto's statement |
Hi Halfhand:
Of course it isn't acceptible to go offpiste without Probe, shovel and transceiver!
My statement is in line with e.g. Valdinet current practice.
Also in line with BASI practice for always being properly equipped for offpiste.
Going offpiste without transceiver, shovel and probe is not something that responsible, experienced skiers do.
Q1
What would you do if you witnessed an avalanche and thought someone might be buried somewhere in a 200m slope? But oh dear, you couldn't be bothered wearing your transceiver and had no probe and shovel? Answer.. Let the sucker suffocate? Someone else's problem?
What if it was one of your mates? As the whole Paquerettes saga illustrated, there's a lot of guilt that will stay with the survivors because they couldn't find and save their friend Chloe.
Q2
If you were taken in an avalanche and didn't have a transceiver on, that means you may well be requiring the entire village to turn out to look for your sorry ass with probes. Wouldn't that be somehow selfish?
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Wed 12-08-15 21:29; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Going off piste is without transceiver, shovel and probe is not something that responsible, experienced skiers do?
Just out of interest, how many people have skied off piste without this equipment in the last year or so?
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@SkiPresto, Well thanks for the clarification. I was under the impression that there was a difference between the definitions of an interaire and off-piste. Glad to have been put right by an expert 
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You know it makes sense.
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@cameronphillips2000, most of us here are wholehearted adherents to transceiver shovel probe etc. But being honest most of us will probably admit to having jumped into the sidecountry at least in the last year unequipped. After we had made mental assessment risk was low.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@halfhand, It isn't that clear actually. this run- Paquarettes is a piste - but it is not posted. It is a Naturide. There are quite separate itineraries (not In Espace Killy) free ride zones (in Espace Killy previously I think) Itineraries (e.g. in Austria / Switzerland) and off piste routes- everywhere.
Probably best explained with a table. But my skills aren't up to that.
Paquarettes is marked on the piste maps, has a start that is marked as open or closed, is marked on the mountain both sides, has obstacles marked on the slope, is patrolled and avalanched controlled. But it isn't groomed. It is steep- very and potentially really bumpy and icy. There is no need to have avalanche kit when skiing an open naturide in Espace Killy.
Itineraries are marked on the map and on the slope- but usually only the middle. They aren't groomed. They are opened or closed by the patrol depending on conditions generally.
Freeride zones- usually rather steep and gnarly- often require avalanche kit. Marked on the map and gated
Off piste- everywhere not marked as a piste . naturide / zone / park or itinerary. You decides.
@cameronphillips2000, just about everyone I'm guessing, from cutting a corner, bashing through some trees, under a lift line or a little more. Some blue angled stuff between pistes- seems perfectly sensible.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@ed123, Thank you for that explanation.
| Quote: |
| @cameronphillips2000, just about everyone I'm guessing, from cutting a corner, bashing through some trees, under a lift line or a little more. Some blue angled stuff between pistes- seems perfectly sensible. |
Yep done that.
Anyway. I've derailed this thread long enough.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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If the leaders of that unfortunate large group had followed Henry's Avalanche Talk of late Nov early Dec 2012, they wouldn't have got into bother.
http://www.henrysavalanchetalk.com/28-november-hat-piste-snow-report-savoie
It was the first snow, there was a metre of it on N. Facing slopes, and it was very light, soft and very unstable. It doesn't take the brains of an archbishop to catch-on that all that offpiste was lethal.
Certainly Henry was telling everyone at the time that he wouldn't be going offpiste until it had settled down.
I would criticise Tignes marketing for trying to make these short offpiste runs more punter friendly. Sometimes, they are lethal. On some pages runs like Paquerettes and Grizzly are referred to as "Easy off-piste" - "Naturides". . This is some kind of made-up word. It doesn't even appear in Wikipedia! However, it's worth searching for the word here on Snowheads, where it is frequently in use. It's supposed to be accessible, offpiste, ungroomed snow, but some sort of run marking is used and a certain amount of pisteur assessment is done with appropriate signage.
http://www.tignes.net/en/skiing-in-tignes/slope-grooming-111.html
These runs change status all the time with the weather and what's happening with the snowpack, and anyone who isn't skiing with a guide should go and have a chat with the Pisteurs in Tignes when planning a route. They say they have hired a British pisteur to be a liaison with the English-speaking peoples.
I think I might get to like "Naturides" as a term for short, lift-served managed usually inbounds offpiste slopes, whereas the word "Itineraire" could be kept for a longer, more distant, less managed slope that is used as part of a larger route. There are a few big long Itineraires I know that no way are swept on close of play.
Of course, the Americans are way ahead of us in splitting up the definition of Off-Piste into Frontcountry, Backcountry, Sidecountry and Slackcountry. http://blog.canadianmountainholidays.com/heli-ski-blog/bid/91454/Backcountry-Slackcountry-Sidecountry-Frontcountry
In Europe, we treat skiing 2m outside the piste as "Offpiste". We treat skiing the North Face of the Grand Caisse as "Offpiste". We need a more comprehensive vocabulary, and we need to have anyone venturing offpiste even if it is Front/ Back/ Side or Slack to be carrying Probe, Shovel and Transceiver - whether it's for their own emergency rescue - or someone else's.
It's one thing taking a risk in solo skiing or with your mates. Quite another if you are leading an offpiste group.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Interestingly, the witness statement says the trainer tried to start a slide at the top to check it. How many of us have done that, unequiped?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@SkiPresto, I have never seen the Naturides in Tignes described as easy off piste. The description on the piste maps for a naturide is very clear. I do not have a piste map in the UK but in the legend the statement is absolutely clear that the 'run is made safe but is not groomed' - those words may not be the exact ones but there is no room for interpretation as far as I am concerned, they are pistes but will certainly be tricky. I don't think Itineraire is used at all.
There has been a British Pisteur for a number of years in Tignes - he's called Pete and is a buider in the summer. Each year there is also an Australian and an American on exchange and all the pistteurs under 40 that I have met speak more than passable English.
At the time of this accident there were many pistes that were not open (including the two we are talking about IIRC) - as there were no wooden piste markers out - yes the lollipops with numbers were there as they are in the summe,r but no wooden posts every few metres means no piste.
You can legislate all you like with names - in the end its personal responsibility with off piste. If you wish to reduce the risk ALARP stay between the poles. But when the vast majority see a GoPro as a priority over a transceiver no amount of words will stop those who want to take a risk.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@SkiPresto, Thanks for the links above, like a few others I was in Tignes that week as well, but on the day in question was keeping very much to piste or very safe areas. As has been mentioned the snow conditions were IMHO very dangerous, I think the warning was at 4, but to be fair I reckon it should have been a 5.
Just to add, unless its been mentioned before, if your a guide or instructor and you take your group on a closed run, itinerary, naturide, or whatever a resort calls it, then as the guide instructor then your insurance is also not valid  I have not heard anywhere if the instructors had this problem ?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Chocksaway wrote
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I have never seen the Naturides in Tignes described as easy off piste. The description on the piste maps for a naturide is very clear. I do not have a piste map in the UK but in the legend the statement is absolutely clear that the 'run is made safe but is not groomed'
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Chocksaway :-
I'll see if I can find more of the Naturides descriptions I was referring to. I'd like to see a number scale for difficulty too.
Here's an example:-
http://www.action-outdoors.co.uk/resorts/winter/tignes/ski-areas
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Tignes Pistes
The terrain is very varied over the Espace Killy. With over 300km of piste there is plenty to keep you occupied throughout your stay and a good spread across all the grades. For beginners there are special ‘tranquil’ zones in which strict speed limits are enforced making for a much more enjoyable experience. At the other end of the scale there are a number of ‘Naturide’ runs in Tignes which are un pisted but within the patrolled area, a great concept taking away some of the additional risk of off piste skiing for the more advanced skiers and boarders looking to venture into the back country.
| Tignes Off Piste
As well as a superb piste network Tignes can boast one of the largest lift served off piste areas in the world. Areas of note include the Chardonet Bowl, the classic Vallon de la Sache or the P Couloirs (P1-3) all of which are steep and serious undertakings. If you are not an experienced off piste skier it is highly advisable to hire a guide or even better come on one of our great off piste courses. |
This is just one example. It's a British skiing holiday website, but the problem this gives ( "taking away some of the additional risk of off piste skiing") is that they are trying to sell a reduced risk to "more advanced" skiers. (i.e. still non-experts).
The "Tignes Off Piste", in contrast, is billed as "steep and serious" for "experienced off-piste skiers".
Key point about the piste map at Tignes
The point you made about the
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| "The description on the piste maps for a naturide is very clear." |
is an excellent one.
There is a Plan des Pistes here:-
http://www.tignes.net/data/template_iframe/23970-plan-des-pistes.pdf
Here they say "Naturides are marked black runs that have been made safe but have not been groomed, therefore the natural snow conditions are preserved depending on the weather"
Also shown on the piste map:
Discover your playground
The ski area in Tignes spans
3680 hectares (1550m - 3456m).
It is divided into 2 distinct zones.
11% - Marked, patrolled pistes that have been
made safe: 480 hectares
Highly-secure zone, where dangers and obstacles
are marked, with preventive avalanche control
and regular patrols. Pistes suitable for all levels:
green, blue, red, black, Naturides.
89% - The off-piste area: 3200 hectares
The mountain at its best, a space for freedom
with all its pleasures... but also its dangers
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The problem there is with Tignes and its current piste map is that "Naturide" has no difficulty value in the name, as might be imparted by "Natural Red", "Natural Black".
For instance Grizzly and Paquerettes are both quite serious undertakings, under the Toviere lift, but are marked exactly the same as the Campanules, which is much milder and heads off lower level towards the Bollin/ Fresse lift at Val Claret.
Other points that I would argue, make the piste map not as clear-cut as it would seem:-
Grizzly, Paquerettes and Campanules are are marked on the map as black asterisks (********). However the key on the map shows "Naturide" should be marked with black "xxxxxxxxxxxx".
In my view, that's not good enough.
Leaving it there.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Thu 13-08-15 14:17; edited 1 time in total
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@ski presto
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The avalanched group didn't make a "Navigational Mistake" they were deliberately led offpiste down the Paquerettes steeps.
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Yes agree. I was adding navigation as another of the safety skills needed.
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Transceivers do not add to safety. They don't protect you from an avalanche. Transceivers are for rescuing, and that's different.
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100% agree. Not having working transceivers in the group symbolises how ill-prepared they were for the conditions and the terrain. Had she had one on, she may, or may not, have been found more quickly (but let's assume that with so many trained people in the resort involved in the search, she would have been). That speed of finding her may, or may not, have altered the tragic outcome. But without one, she didn't even have that chance.
@philwig nails it:
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The person died because the person responsible for them failed to look after them.
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....and in these circumstances, the sentence is light.
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^agree but to reiterate, that the decision to venture on to slope in the reported condition would have been wrong even with transceivers for reasons of deep new first season snow on a weak base, bad visibility and far too many people.
The coaches should have looked after their people by skiing somewhere else. Other witnesses say there was no shortage of deep snow on open pistes.
Too much testosterone swilling around would be my suggested observation.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@skipresto Yes of course - EVEN with transceivers. No doubt about that. Once that mistake was made, transceivers may just have altered the outcome, given the number of people in the search. Perhaps.
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Too much testosterone swilling around would be my suggested observation.
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Isn't that the truth!
So what are training organisations doing to ensure this all too-human trait can be avoided?
It is a while since I have had the pleasure of a training course, but in the past I have seen the potential for this situation to develop....
Light sentencing does not fill me with confidence that attitudes have changed, at all. What message does it send to current trainees, and those who have graduated from within this kind of environment?
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I think that's been pretty well done generally and there doesn't seem to be much disagreement.
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This below is a different question, because what you would do your and what you should do with a bunch of people you are responsible for are different.
| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
Going off piste is without transceiver, shovel and probe is not something that responsible, experienced skiers do?
Just out of interest, how many people have skied off piste without this equipment in the last year or so? |
As you're asking... It depends how you define your terms, but it's something many responsible and experienced people do. Me, I regularly do precisely that, and in all cases the slide risk is not zero:
- I ride my local golf course whenever I can.
- I ride the luge hill in a Canadian town, typically when there's more snow than you could swim through.
- In a North American resort I won't ride much on piste, and I mostly don't ride with a transceiver.
Note that I don't compete for "back country" lines at a resort though - it's not what you think.
Perhaps an analogy would be solo rock climbing. Almost always it is "safer" to use ropes, but if I'm soloing then I assessing the risk as a "responsible and experienced" climber and I take my chances as I see fit. Boy scouts aren't able to make that assessment and so should not.
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If I'd been riding that day I'd not have had a transceiver on, although I'd have been riding on the piste on me own. I've seen plenty of slides across the piste in Tignes before now, so I'd be taking a calculated risk. I take the point that I can't rescue others without a transceiver and gear, but this is a resort so I would consider the priority being calling help and possibly crowd management - for example ensuring other people not burried aren't still transmitting.
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On testosterone,you have to have rules. So if you have formal responsibility for people, you need the gear and you can't ride off-piste when the risk is X irrespective. Or if a slope is closed, you can't ride it irrespective of your gear (unless your dad owns the resort). It's in fact breaking these rules which is negligence.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
On testosterone,you have to have rules. So if you have formal responsibility for people, you need the gear and you can't ride off-piste when the risk is X irrespective. Or if a slope is closed, you can't ride it irrespective of your gear (unless your dad owns the resort). It's in fact breaking these rules which is negligence.
Thu 13 Aug, 15
12:27
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Yes. So what are the formal rules for training courses in Basi, (or the French, the Swiss, the Austrians and Italians etc )?
If I were a parent about to see a child train as a ski instructor, these rules and understanding them would seem a little opaque. Does anyone know how to find out?
Obviously all training systems have separate off piste modules, such as European Mountain Safety, the advice of which these trainers did not follow.
But in normal and general training, trainees will be tested and trained on variable terrain. That can be off piste, of course.
Are they as safe, as they reasonably can be, when training?
How can they know they are safe, especially if they have not yet taken a mountain safety module?
How can they whistleblow (in real time) if they do have a concern?
Beyond the training environment, these trainees will graduate in time, and transmit the values learnt on their training to their paying clients.
This accident, and the light sentencing, impacts both the professional training world, and the paying public, imo.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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There seems to be some debate on this thread as to the rules for On-Piste, Off-Piste and Itinerary runs.
This is also clouded by the Tignes concept of the so-called "Naturide", which is (according to the piste map) a controlled, marked run that is not an unpatrolled itineraire, that is left with a natural (i.e. un-groomed) snowpack. It is usually marked on the Tignes piste-map map indistinguishably from an Itinerary run.
Here is a link to the official FIS document:-
RULES FOR SAFETY IN WINTER SPORT CENTRES, FIS ENVIRONMENTAL RULES
(It's the latest version I can find).
http://www.fis-ski.com/mm/Document/documentlibrary/Administrative/04/22/77/10fisrulesforconductsafetyandtheenvironment_newFISCI_Neutral.pdf
See page 7to 10 of 33 "III. Rules for Safety in Winter Sports Centres"
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C.
Skiing areas: pistes, itineraries (unpatrolled runs), off piste
The concept of skiing areas in Europe has developed around the marked
runs/pistes.
1.
The marked piste
a)
The pistes are classed according to their mounting degree of difficulty by
green, blue, red and black signs.
b)
On the piste, skiers are entitled to standards of safety as recognised by
the national jurisdiction of that state.
c)
A piste must not be laid out over terrain exposed to avalanches.
d)
Pistes must be "opened" and "closed" every day.
e)
Both the entire length and immediate boundaries of pistes must be free
from exceptional and abnormal danger points.
f)
There must be an organised permanent rescue service in operation from
the opening to the closing of the piste.
g)
A skier is entitled to the same standard of safety even where for whatever
reason an area operator has opened or laid out a piste which has not been
marked.
2.
The itinerary (unpatrolled run)
a)
Itineraries should not be laid out in areas where the skier might encounter
unusual and unexpected dangers.
b)
The marking must be continued until the end of the itinerary.
c)
Any avalanche danger should be signed in the resort and at the lower lift
station leading to the start of the itinerary which itself should be closed off.
d)
Itineraries are not graded according to their degree of difficulty. Any
difficulties however, which are beyond the capability of the skier of medium
ability must be indicated on the information boards in the resort.
e)
Itineraries are skied at the skiers own risk or at the risk of his instructor.
3.
Off piste skiing
Except for the obligation of the ski centre to provide information regarding
the weather and especially avalanche dangers, any skiing
off piste is undertaken at the skier's own risk or at the risk of his instructor or guide.
4.
Information for the skier provided by the ski centres, e.g. information
boards, piste maps, pamphlets etc.
a)
The pistes will be shown by continuous lines of the colour corresponding
to their degree of difficulty.
b)
The itineraries will be shown by dotted lines or by continuous lines in
yellow or orange.
5.
The concept of pistes
In countries where the organisation of skiing does not stem from the
concept of pistes, but from that of a skiing area within a defined boundary,
the ski area operator must within this area protect skiers from foreseeable
dangers which are not obvious or which cannot be foreseen by a careful
skier.
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We must remember we are discussing this because a very tragic accident happened that should have been avoided if the professionals escorting this group had acted with the prudence we should expect of them and/or they had been suitably equipped.
However, on behalf of Tignes (!) the piste map is clear. Firstly, I can find no mention of the word itinerary in either language. In the legend it (yes there may be a bit of a snag with crosses vs asterisks) it says Naturides are black slopes (so there's the clue to difficulty) that are patrolled, marked and not groomed. In the amplification on the back page it adds that natural snow conditions are maintained based on the weather. In the section on signpost it states that if you go beyond the wooden markers you are off piste - no ifs no buts. So I don't think anything Tignes does contributed to this accident. As I have said before a ski area is not a theme park - you have to understand the local rules and apply them.
All the above is reinforced by the Municipal Arrete, which is the law under which any action would be taken against a plaintiff - available here:
http://www.tignes.net/data/template_entetecontenu/6497-securite-prevention.pdf
This is the law as applied in France - not a set of rules from a governing body and is therefore the overriding document. As for
As for Action Outdoors - they have fallen into a marketing trap, if they had said that the naturides are pistes which are not groomed to allow you to practice on more tricky terrain before venturing off piste in complete safety - the I would have no heartache. But, like many other ski schools where every day off piste is a powder day (sorry - that's another hobby horse!!) they have fallen prey to 'providing bragging rights' which I experience all to often.
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You know it makes sense.
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^Good info @chocsaway.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I must say I am a little confused myself now. I have never considered itineraries as off piste just because they aren't bashed. The whole point of an itinerary, as opposed to off piste, is that it is considered avalanche safe unless closed (in which case you shouldn't go on it just as you shouldn't go on a closed piste).
Not all normal pistes are bashed all the time (and some steep ones never were in the past but may be now, I don't know). But when a normal piste has deep snow on it it is not considered off piste. Generally itineraries get as skied out as a normal piste.
I happen to always ski with a transceiver but wouldn't feel in danger without one on an itinerary which was open.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@snowball, One of the problems is that there is no standardisation from country to country and even resort to resort on descriptions of various parts of a ski area, I think you just need to check the local details rather than apply assumptions. In Tignes the Naturides do get skied out quickly (as does most of the off piste) but they are easily distinguished from other pistes by the size of the moguls!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Ha ha. That used to be the difference between piste and off piste, but the other way round.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| snowball wrote: |
I must say I am a little confused myself now. I have never considered itineraries as off piste just because they aren't bashed. The whole point of an itinerary, as opposed to off piste, is that it is considered avalanche safe unless closed (in which case you shouldn't go on it just as you shouldn't go on a closed piste).
Not all normal pistes are bashed all the time (and some steep ones never were in the past but may be now, I don't know). But when a normal piste has deep snow on it it is not considered off piste. Generally itineraries get as skied out as a normal piste.
I happen to always ski with a transceiver but wouldn't feel in danger without one on an itinerary which was open. |
This was my.................. oh what's the point 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| SkiPresto wrote: |
^agree but to reiterate, that the decision to venture on to slope in the reported condition would have been wrong even with transceivers for reasons of deep new first season snow on a weak base, bad visibility and far too many people.
The coaches should have looked after their people by skiing somewhere else. Other witnesses say there was no shortage of deep snow on open pistes.
Too much testosterone swilling around would be my suggested observation. |
I would contribute that the unforgivable infraction was taking a group under their supervision off piste without transceiver. Not the choice of route per se.
The choice of route was a mistake. Mistakes are made. I'm sure the instructors(mistakenly) thought it would be fine. They went as far as discussing it with pisteurs. I have often been off piste with guides/ instructors on risk 4 days. Those guides made their best judgment those days but no one is immune from mistakes.
It is a little presumptive to attribute it to testosterone.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@SkiPresto, Naturides are v simple. They are pistes but are not (usually) groomed. That's it. It isn't complicated at all. It is quite alright to ski them with your kids / someone else's kids/a perfect stranger. Paquarettes is a bit steep mind so they better be good.
Also there are no rules for anything. Whatever anyone might say. You may or may not ski anything anywhere with or without a; helmet, avalanche cord, shovel, probe, transceiver, buddy, guide, instructor, fit Swedish bird, SCGB leader/rep/Ambassador (with or without a box of Fererro Rocher), EPRIB, satellite phone or clothes.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@ed123, where can you get a fit Swedish bird?
(Is that what Fererro Rochers are for?)
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hum might have messed up a spelling there
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Nooooooo not the avalanche cord...........
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Reading between the lines here, what I've witnessed is a change in culture, custom and practice.
fifteen yearsago, when a little younger, I regularly hopped off piste with instructors or my mates. In those days a shovel was something you loaded the fire with, a probe was to take the dog's temperature and a transceiver was something off Star Trek.
I then took a break from skiing when my kids were born and when I started again with toddlers off piste. Was back in the distant pre kids days filed with happy memories like beer, nights out, small fast cars and sex.
A couple of years ago I join Snowheads and read regularly about this new off piste untrue of shovels, probes etc. not only area the tires full of this terminology but there is also a new opinion that venturing off piste, even by a metre, without them is like driving without a seat belt, riding a bike without a helmet or shagging in Magaluf without a condom.
these developments are probably a welcome thing. I'm not sure if they have reduced a I deaths as a lot more people now seem to venture off piste with their new knowledge and kit.
back in the day, La Grave was for tanned people with long hair called Pierre or Brad. If you'd skied there you were a god and girls would throw their underwear at you.
Now, people called Donald and Brenda ski La a Grave with all the gear and some idea.
joking aside, maybe skiing off piste without the gear becoming socially unnacceptable like drink driving, speaking on the phone whilst driving is the way forwards.
having read this thread I feel pressure to conform in future.
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I don't think it's a single culture change. Sure when I was a kid I skied off piste with my brother without kit but in reality it was a little bit to the side of the piste at fairly mellow gradients in well tracked out conditions because I simply didn't have the skills to ski long straight skis in deep snow (& as an annual family holiday booked well in advance the chances of hitting a legit heavy storm powder day were pretty slim). So we had a kid of self limiting risk
That sort of skiing is 99% safe still I think. The point is if you can't positively identify why it is or isn't safe you probably shouldn't be doing because educational opportunities now are vast.
Equipment evolution has made it easier for those lacking the education to venture further off piste (starting with snowboards and then fatter skis). Then it becomes a matter of the message being you should not. I suspect a highish correlation between not owning kit and not understanding avalanche risk factors, terrain triggers, good off piste protocol etc and further correlation with not having the skills to ski a potentially dangerous slope quickly then get the hell out of dodge. So those people are a danger to self and others - I do not want some clown shadowing my group then dropping in higher in chute and hitting a potential trigger that we've consciously avoided.
Now none of this is helped by old skool instructor machismo - they've been skiing the slopes for ever without even a hat on for protection so know those aren't slopes that trigger so no need for gear, as that sets a terrible example and I suspect a touch of arrogance that they are too good to get caught.
La Grave is for people that treat it with the appropriate amount of respect (& this year for those with their own private helicopter as you sure as hell can't drive there easily)
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FAQ
. I still don't think you've answered clearly either 
