 Poster: A snowHead
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One of the reasons ski insurance costs are higher than insurances for MTB, climbing etc etc is that, almost no matter what the scale of the injury there is an upfront rescue cost of at least about £120 to get you off the mountain. For a lot of knee, wrist, ankle etc injuries a walker, climber, MTB'er could probably get themselves to civilisation easily after the accident (even if in pain). And even if they couldn't, the risks of a lengthy exposure without rescue are far less. A different story completely being stranded at 2500m in -10degC, hence the bloodwagon services etc. And whether or not the bloodwagons *ought* to charge what they do (personally, I'd like to see the service included within the lift pass prices), their charges are not minor.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The only common theme I can discern so far is, don't carry a mobile phone whilst skiing if you want to keep your ribs intact. 
I seem to have been lucky with my skiing, can't remember every having any sort of injury. Cycling on the other hand...nothing serious, but been over the handlebars a few times on the MTB and one good incident of 'road rash' from the road bike. From football, various minor injuries, most serious being a badly twisted ankle from accidentally standing on the ball. Doesn't sound bad but it weeks before I could run on it again and months before I could do anything that involved twisting the ankle.
My one and only trip to the hospital was following a game of Rugby. Fractured skull that involved a 3 night stay before I could escape the boredom, and I still have a dent above my left eye. I'd say the team averaged at least one 'decent' injury per game, so I'd nominate that as 'most dangerous' (although luckily deaths are rare).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
For a lot of knee, wrist, ankle etc injuries a walker, climber, MTB'er could probably get themselves to civilisation easily after the accident (even if in pain). And even if they couldn't, the risks of a lengthy exposure without rescue are far less.
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I disagree, my friends were struck by lightning while climbing a via ferrata in the Dolomites last summer at just under 3000m. It took them 16 hours to get down including a very cold bivi. Much of my climbing/walking is further and more difficult to get to civilisation than skiing. IMHO the risk of a lengthy exposure are much higher not less.And often out of range of mobile phone coverage. But then we factor that in when we are assesing the risks of what we are doing.
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Of course, there will always be significant injuries and rescue tales.
But I'm talking about equivalent injuries to a torn ACL, twisted knee etc. The stuff which is relatively minor, but exacerbated by being at altitude in sub zero (daytime) conditions. If you did those on a bike, you'd just roll back to civilisation. Its hard enough walking around the resorts in ski boots with two able legs, trying to do just 800m down a red run in ski boots carrying even a small(ish) leg injury is nigh impossible (for most).
Being struck by lightning at 3000m+ is a bit more significant and out of the ordinary.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@larkim
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Being struck by lightning at 3000m+ is a bit more significant and out of the ordinary.
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Skiing accidents are "out of the ordinary" I am glad to say.
I ruptured my ACL on a motorbike trial; there was not a possibility of walking anywhere, the lower leg just went sideways. In fact "just rolling downhill" would be nigh on impossible on anything other than a smooth road with no flat or uphill bits.
Most mountaineering and climbing accidents don't occur on nice days. It is usually in bad weather and I reiterate "Much of my climbing/walking is further and more difficult to get to civilisation than skiing." Even a stroll up Snowdon.
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"I'd also consider off piste skiing on a similar level of risk to winter climbing "
I don't have much winter climbing experience but I feel the risk would be a chunk higher than off piste skiing. I'd certainly say that about summer mixed alpine routes. But obviously if you compare 50 degree slopes with horrible run outs vs easy gulleys at low avalanche risk you would get a different balance.
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Much of my climbing/walking is further and more difficult to get to civilisation than skiing
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but if you smash yourself up on an MTB in Snowdonia, or fall climbing, the rescue services won't be paid.
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^
IIRC from an insurance viewpoint they fall into the same risk category.
However I've done some winter climbing and to me it certainly feels higher risk than skiing or indeed summer climbing. The protection is rarely as reliable as you can find on summer rock and if you fall you've got sharps attached to your feet and wrists just waiting for the chance to stab you. Of course it does depend on what grade climb you are comparing to what level of skiing.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm sort of distinguishing between the sort of injury which might happen to a 10 year old with 3 days of skiing experience (or indeed a 40 year old with the same level of experience) and highly skilled, specialised activities (such as winter climbing). As a complete novice at skiing, you could still require a helicopter rescue. That's highly unlikely for an equal novice in most other "dangerous" sports (for whom novice training would often be in very low risk areas).
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My mum, who decided not to ski this year, came with us and went walking on a marked path between Vallandry and 1600. Slipped on patch of ice and needed helicopter rescue and repatriation following rib and fib break. To me that proves, proves I tell you, that is safer to ski on a ski holiday
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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We go to PdS in winter to ski and board and in summer to mtb (downhill, lift assisted) with the kids. I'd say the MTB'ing is more dangerous.
In 5 winters and 3 summers I have only seen the helicopter out once in winter, but 3 or 4 times in summer. Also had an ambulance out for a little lad in les gets.
We found it harder to get insurance to include downhill mtb than winter sports. It's the lift assisted downhill bit that was usually not included.
Perhaps it's also easier to get to people in trouble in winter as they use snowmobiles?
I definitely worry more in summer.....
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I'd say the MTB'ing is more dangerous.
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Me too! I don't ride offroad much but I know a bunch of 40 something blokes who ride every weekend round the Chilterns where I live. This is very tame terrain compared to the Alps and yet the injury rate is pretty striking - the number of wrists and collarbones that have been broken is eyecatching.
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In my (albeit limited) experience of biking both on mountain and on road, I feel infinitely safer on my snowboard than on a bike...
Out of interest, we were chatting to the head waiter in the Cave de Creux restaurant in 3V the other week, during a day of heavy snow and he said that there'd been 18 blown knees that morning just on Marmotte, Creux and the other runs above the restaurant. I'd spent about half an hour digging myself out of hip deep snow after the board submarined going too slow, then going back into it to help a skier who was on the verge of a panic attack get out of the same area.
Think the thing is, that we *think* we know our capabilities and where we can and can't go, but some very simple elements can conspire against us very quickly in the mountains and we can soon find ourselves our of our comfort zone.
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You know it makes sense.
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Only skiing-related injury in my family occurred when son #2 tripped over a backpack on our condo and broke his arm. It's clearly safer on the slopes.
Only sporting injury in the family happened when the same lad carelessly held his board at a dangerous angle in rough surf. He broke his other arm that day, and I have to say that the beach-side medical centre in Lacanau was extraordinarily busy. One guy had to be airlifted to Bordeaux with a serious back injury, and I suspect that surfing might be considerably less safe than skiing.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| jedster wrote: |
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I'd say the MTB'ing is more dangerous.
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Me too! I don't ride offroad much but I know a bunch of 40 something blokes who ride every weekend round the Chilterns where I live. This is very tame terrain compared to the Alps and yet the injury rate is pretty striking - the number of wrists and collarbones that have been broken is eyecatching. |
But is MTB'ing in this context a subset of leisure cycling in the same way that off piste skiing is a subset of family skiing holidays.
Yes, my son could fall from his bike whilst cycling around a french campsite in the summer and break a wrist. But I'd ferry him to hospital myself, I wouldn't need to call a specialist bike injuries ambulance to pick him up and transport him 800m to the local GPs triage centre before ambulancing to the main hospital 20km away.
But a similar / equivalent injury to my son whilst skiing down a blue in the 3V would at least require a bloodwagon.
Ditto the example of someone slipping / falling whilst walking on a randonee in the snow. It's the snowy, cold, inaccessible locations of skiing which definitely add something to the premiums for winter holiday insurances.
I've been on (I think) about 10 weeks of winter skiing holidays, 6 of those with just my wife and myself, and the other 4 with at least 4 family members. So that's 36 equivalent weeks of skiing. In that time I've cracked a rib (twice I think, though no rescue required), I've had a son blooedwagoned off due to a twisted knee and my dad had a tumble which resulted in a chronic subdural haematoma.
My eldest is a keen mountain biker, I've accompanied him (with the family) on numerous days out, either in local parks, on "proper" trails like Llandegla, etc etc. He's had one injury (when he was 6 I think) and since then 9 years of no trouble. I love skiing, but my perception is that it is definitely more at risk of an injury than MTB'ing is!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'd say it depends.
A friend who runs a chalet recons that out of fourteen guests each week at least one always has an incident.
When I go canoeing in bear country I take all precautions, bells, sprays, bear proof food store and a handy axe at all times. Never had a problem, if you don't want trouble with a bear don't try an tap it on the nose. I guess the same goes for skiing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You know you shouldn't have said that...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
| Ditto the example of someone slipping / falling whilst walking on a randonee in the snow. It's the snowy, cold, inaccessible locations of skiing which definitely add something to the premiums for winter holiday insurances. |
I think the cost driver for travel insurance premiums are more likely to be based on what you're prepared to pay for it.
So for example "travel" insurance costs for Canada (where rescue and health care are generally free) are the same as for the US where they are generally not so. You could argue that repatriation costs are greater, although that's such a rare occurrence as not to be a big cost driver in my opinion. The reason you pay more for North America is they are screwing you for a percentage of your holiday cost.
Second example... heli ski travel insurance costs are completely outrageous, even though rescue and cancellation costs are likely to be zero in most cases. The reason is as above: the customers can very definitely afford it and may be quite daft.
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Bears? My experience is Zodiac based, but travelling with Alaskans you end up with a very practical approach to bear safety. So no bells (!) but plenty of beer coolers.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I have a little loop that spins in my head,
What's the chances
What's the consequences
How easy is it to avoid
You need at least one in your favour.
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| Quote: |
I've been on (I think) about 10 weeks of winter skiing holidays, 6 of those with just my wife and myself, and the other 4 with at least 4 family members. So that's 36 equivalent weeks of skiing. In that time I've cracked a rib (twice I think, though no rescue required), I've had a son blooedwagoned off due to a twisted knee and my dad had a tumble which resulted in a chronic subdural haematoma.
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And I've skied more than 60 weeks, as much off piste as on piste and I've cracked a rib once and was quite capable of skiing down.
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A friend who runs a chalet recons that out of fourteen guests each week at least one always has an incident.
[/quote]
I worked in a chalet with 10 guests for a season and we only had two injuries all season that prevent guests from skiing.
I think all this proves is that any person's anecdotes don't tell you much
I don't really understand this:
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Yes, my son could fall from his bike whilst cycling around a french campsite in the summer and break a wrist. But I'd ferry him to hospital myself, I wouldn't need to call a specialist bike injuries ambulance to pick him up and transport him 800m to the local GPs triage centre before ambulancing to the main hospital 20km away.
But a similar / equivalent injury to my son whilst skiing down a blue in the 3V would at least require a bloodwagon.
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I mean I could much more easily ski down with a broken wrist than cycle with a broken wrist. Sure break a leg or rupture a cruciate and you need a lift. In any case I don't see why the need for help getting you off the mountain makes it more dangerous? Expensive possibly.
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In any case I don't see why the need for help getting you off the mountain makes it more dangerous? Expensive possibly.
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This follows from the question raised a bit back as to why is ski insurance more expensive than hiking, cycling or climbing insurance.
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@jedster, you are right. Collarbones and wrists are a nightmare on an MTB. There's a lovely little plaque on a tree in Sherwood Forest/Pines which pays homage to someone's broken collarbone.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@jedster, i broke two ribs and severly bruised the associated inter-costal muscles (sliding down some snowy stairs into the post at the bottom) and I could barely get out of bed for a week.
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This follows from the question raised a bit back as to why is ski insurance more expensive than hiking, cycling or climbing insurance
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it seems from comments above that insurance for lift-served downhill MTB in the Alps is very expensive. Makes sense - just looking at it, it looks far more dangerous to me than skiing on the same slopes in winter. Also, the young downhill MTB-ers tend to be tough, brave and a touch foolhardy. Their numbers are not leavened by the Archetypical Old Punters who potter, mainly fairly safely, round the ski pistes.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@jedster, i broke two ribs and severly bruised the associated inter-costal muscles (sliding down some snowy stairs into the post at the bottom) and I could barely get out of bed for a week.
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Weirdly I was most uncomfortable in bed! That's where I suffered from the worst spasms - rolling over and getting from horizontal to vertical were the worst. Loads of moaning and groaning!
I'm not saying it was comfortable skiing down but I never thought of summoning a blood wagon.
The doctor in Alp d'Huez gave me so many drugs (anti-inflams, pain killers and anti-spasmodics) that I rattled but told me I could ski if it wasn't too painful. So I did, carefully, for the rest of the holiday.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| dobby wrote: |
| @jedster, you are right. Collarbones and wrists are a nightmare on an MTB. There's a lovely little plaque on a tree in Sherwood Forest/Pines which pays homage to someone's broken collarbone. |
The owner of my LBS ("local bike shop") is a MTB champion who has recently broken bones MTBing. So it seems experience and the wisdom of age don't confer immunity.
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| jedster wrote: |
I don't really understand this:
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Yes, my son could fall from his bike whilst cycling around a french campsite in the summer and break a wrist. But I'd ferry him to hospital myself, I wouldn't need to call a specialist bike injuries ambulance to pick him up and transport him 800m to the local GPs triage centre before ambulancing to the main hospital 20km away.
But a similar / equivalent injury to my son whilst skiing down a blue in the 3V would at least require a bloodwagon.
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I mean I could much more easily ski down with a broken wrist than cycle with a broken wrist. Sure break a leg or rupture a cruciate and you need a lift. In any case I don't see why the need for help getting you off the mountain makes it more dangerous? Expensive possibly. |
I was talking comparable injuries - so a collarbone or a wrist might be the most common MTB (or indeed back garden cycling) injuries (which could result from a relatively minor accident) in the same way that a twisted knee / ACL would be. For many people who ski (perhaps not the keen skiers for whom this forum is a home) such a "bog standard" ski injury would result in them needing the assistance of the bloodwagon. Such a bog standard cycling accident would only require rescue in more "extreme" MTB terrain.
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You know it makes sense.
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But again, the fact that there is no road so you need a sledge to get down doesn't make it more dangerous.
I can assure you, you don't need extreme terrain to come off and break a wrist and if you are far from home you are going to need to phone to get picked up. If I cant get back under my own steam I'm being "rescued".
And I'd make the point again - I think you are much more of risk of death pootling to the corner shop on your bike than you are piste skiing. Not that either are what I would describe as high risk!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@larkim, Have you ever broken a collarbone, wrist or ruptured an ACL?
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Poster: A snowHead
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@jedster, Agreed, I had a friend who was a good climber and had done the Noth Face of the Eiger. He lost his life cycling home from work.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@johnE,
sorry to hear that.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| jedster wrote: |
| ...And I'd make the point again - I think you are much more of risk of death pootling to the corner shop on your bike than you are piste skiing. Not that either are what I would describe as high risk! |
Agreed, unless you behave particularly safely on your bike and particularly stupidly off piste.
I would add that it's counter intuitive, but you're actually more at risk walking to the corner shop - statistically walking around cities is more dangerous than cycling around them (reference.. I can't remember, the CTC will have it somewhere). The 20mph limit should help reduce the carnage, so long as more of you don't start texting.
People expect a blood wagon for a broken wrist? I broke my ankle off piste. I rode down using the other one, then waited until I could cadge a lift back to town. There I found a doctor who charged me $50 for some drugs and a pair of crutches, job done.
I've been involved in rescuing lots of people. Irrespective of how the original problem happened, in many cases more competent parties would not need rescue at all. The effect of mobile phone coverage on call outs is well known.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| jedster wrote: |
But again, the fact that there is no road so you need a sledge to get down doesn't make it more dangerous.
I can assure you, you don't need extreme terrain to come off and break a wrist and if you are far from home you are going to need to phone to get picked up. If I cant get back under my own steam I'm being "rescued".
And I'd make the point again - I think you are much more of risk of death pootling to the corner shop on your bike than you are piste skiing. Not that either are what I would describe as high risk! |
I think we're probably arguing at cross purposes. My post at the top of the page was addressing one of the reasons why insurance for all skiers (beginners through to experts) was more expensive; i.e. minor injuries require rescue. So a family holiday with two beginner child skiers and two novice parents was more likely to give rise to an accident creating a necessity of a (moderately) expensive rescue, compared to the same sort of family holiday, caravanning in the Vendee where the whole family happen to take their bikes to do some cycling around.
(However other parts of the skiing insurance equation also involve third party injuries, weather related claims, piste closure compensation etc etc. Much of which wouldn't be relevant for other "extreme" sport holiday insurances).
But to address your point, I do think that skiing at some levels is more "dangerous" - and particularly at that novice level. Perhaps for a competent red / black run skier, on the piste with some common sense behind them, accident risk is lower than for a competent red / black MTB trail rider. I'm not trying to do the sport / hobby / pasttime down at all, but it does seem to me that for some categories of skiers there is a higher risk of injury. Anecdotal reports such as the chalet observation above, or (I can't remember where I heard it) school trips where the school leaders will more or less expect at least one child to require some treatment do seem to back that up.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'm not sure that the original question has a single answer. If you like to pootle down quiet avalanche controlled slopes that are well within your ability, it's probably no more dangerous than a walk in the park. If you like to jump cliffs, speed, push yourself, race or seek adrenaline, it probably has a pretty high rate of at least minor injuries.
Insurance companies unfortunately have very little idea which end of the spectrum you occupy.
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The comparison with cycling is tricky because we all behave in different ways. But rock and tarmac are less forgiving than snow.
I have to say that I'm personally more often in a 'fail and this will really hurt' situation in a trail centre than on skis. Even on a road bike, a 60km/h descent can get nasty very quickly if you hit an unexpected patch of slurry or if a pheasant pops out of the hedge.
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There are so many factors involved it's almost impossible to state what the risk actually is for a specific individual skiing in a specific location. I consider my own personal risk to be extremely low for many reasons and to back it up I've never had a serious injury in 500+ ski days. Just the odd bruise here and there. I'm sure I'm more at risk of injury/death in everyday life so the inherent dangers of skiing are not something I worry about at all. But then again I do take mountain safety seriously and don't get out of my depth or do stupid things.
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I reckon to 1,200 ski days and I've - fractured 2 vertebrae, broken a few bits of my hand but that's about it. I reckon that's pretty good comüared to the list from Big Nights Out in Glasgow and London, where death has been avoided by a whisker on numerous occasions, from all sorts of bizarre and unusual mishaps.
Spacehoppers anyone?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| larkim wrote: |
| I love skiing, but my perception is that it is definitely more at risk of an injury than MTB'ing is! |
For me it's very much the opposite. I'm a keen mountain biker (hardcore side of trail riding, but not full on DH) and had far more injuries from biking than skiing. Thankfully nothing too serious, but the guys I ride with (very experienced and skilled riders too) have had more than their fair share of broken bones over the years, one requiring rescue services. I feel much less exposed when skiing, but as I said in my earlier post, the risks for any individual can vary massively as you have shown from your personal experiences.
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| ... I'm sure I'm more at risk of injury/death in everyday life so the inherent dangers of skiing are not something I worry about at all. But then again I do take mountain safety seriously and don't get out of my depth or do stupid things. |
That's my perspective on it. The subjective/ objective risk business makes risk assessment not particularly intuitive. That drives profits in the insurance business too.
So you may think I'm the crazy extreme sports nutter, yet I'm often the only person who fastens my seat belt on the bus.
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FAQ
