 Poster: A snowHead
|
@tangowaggon,
| Quote: |
Its not impossible in the slightest for even a small resort to leave a small percentage of the pistes ungroomed
|
Indeed, but I suspect that most resorts know their punters pretty well and the current set-up is designed to pelase the maximum number of people. Most people would prefer runs to be immaculately pisted. If you set aside a proportion of the runs for the few who prefer them unpisted then you reduce the number available for the majority. I guess they reckon it's not worth it.
Pisted blacks may make them faster, and hence more dangerous, but fewer bumps makes them a great deal safer. Are people more likeley to hurt themselves going too fast down a black or lurching down the bumps? I'm 90% sure it's the latter.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
@tangowaggon, found it..... I'd not misread it. On the other thread about daft skiers in the PDS. Zarroc wrote
| Quote: |
| For the past 3 years les carroz is even grooming a black (was red, but always mogulled) all the way down, they usually groom the top of them and then leave the lower. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| Are people more likeley to hurt themselves going too fast down a black or lurching down the bumps? I'm 90% sure it's the latter. |
They're more likely to hurt others hooning down a groomed black…
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
@foxtrotzulu,
| Quote: |
Pisted blacks may make them faster, and hence more dangerous, but fewer bumps makes them a great deal safer. Are people more likeley to hurt themselves going too fast down a black or lurching down the bumps? I'm 90% sure it's the latter.
|
I disagree at least in terms of serious injuries, by and large it is speed that causes the serious injuries and people travel a lot slower with moguls around.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
@T Bar, You may be right in terms of serious injuries, but I don't know what the equation is. Would a resort rather have one serious injury or 100 minor injuries? 1:50 ? 1:10? Who knows? Of course you also have to take into account the fact that fewer people will want to ski a mogully black than a nice smooth one, hence more skiers and more accidents. Does grooming a black relieve overcrowding elsewhere and help to reduce accidents there? We need RobRar or someone who has insider knowledge to advise.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
@foxtrotzulu,
I'm pretty sceptical that moguls contribute much to minor injuries unless you count wounded pride. Most skiers I know who have self inflicted minor injuries pick them up on straightforward slope being slightly careless usually blues and greens.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Watch vids of 80s skiers pn the steep and you LL see why they got mogulled. America led the way in piste groiming and Europe caught up. Thee s a lot less snow abouttoo than twenty years ago so you have to get the bashers out to push snow on to the piste and cover up the holes. Mostskoers want to ski on something reasonablerather thana cutup,rutted, rocky, bar in places piste
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Les Gets rarely pistes its (few) blacks and has also left the middle part of the (very wide) main learners piste unbashed for the last month or so.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
What about the 'free ride / snowzones ' that have been incorporated as Avalanche protected areas in many resorts. For example in Avoriaz there are a number of snowzones of varying grades some have steep pitches eg gulleys in Fornet. In this respect moving towards the American model.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Serre Chevalier has several runs marked as "brut neige" which means they aren't pisted - their a mix of reds and blacks.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
Have to say I always find plenty of churned up slopes. One day a breeze, the next its mogul heaven/hell. Have only ever skied in France/Scotland and one Norway trip
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
@Shimmy Alcott, one day a breeze, the next day wind crust, surely? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tignes/ Val d'Isere, les Arcs, have no shortage of proper challenging black runs, pisted and unpisted
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
What you have to remember is that all resorts, no matter how hard or otherwise their terrain, feel they must have some blacks, and some blues (greens in France & Spain).
So in resorts which don't have any genuinely very difficult runs, there will still be one or two pistes marked as black, but which any competent red run skier can still ski reasonably comfortably.
That doesn't mean that blacks everywhere are getting easier, just that they are easier where you happen to be now than they were in the place you were on a previous trip.
I don't think it has been the case at any time I have been skiing that most of the runs marked as black on the piste maps have been regularly left unpisted in Europe.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| MeMyselfandI wrote: |
| Les Gets rarely pistes its (few) blacks and has also left the middle part of the (very wide) main learners piste unbashed for the last month or so. |
Is that in part to slow down any stray beginners from going right across the slopes?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
Of the two resorts that I remember best from the 80's for black runs because I went there and have been back since they have definitely changed.
Zermatt has relabelled virtually all of the ones I can remember Itinaires de ski except the National which last time I skied it had all its bumps pisted out.
Tignes has acquired many black runs most of which were formerly labelled red but are now black, often easier now than then because of widening and grooming. There have been a few genuinely new runs created.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
I was always under the impression that different countries tend to have different approaches to grooming runs, although obviously attitudes still vary from resort to resort. French resorts often leave a lot of blacks ungroomed. In Italy this is rarer. In Austria, rarer still, but with greater use of marked itineraries which are usually unpisted. In the USA, the whole approach to boundaries is different so you can ski on unpisted, very knarly terrain that's still avalanche patrolled. In Scotland, black runs are almost always ungroomed. And so on.
Attitudes varying between resorts probably depend on the customer profile. For example, l'Espace Killy probably attracts a higher-than-average proportion of good skiers, so there's likely to be more demand for a variety of surfaces. Whereas somewhere like the Ski Welt attracts a higher proportion beginners and early intermediates, who wouldn't want any bumpy surprises when trying a black for the first time. I guess there's a kind of positive feedback there too: easier terrain -> attracts less experienced skiers -> more piste grooming -> easier terrain... etc.).
@tangowaggon, Les Arcs comes to mind as somewhere with a large number of deliberately unpisted steeper runs. Alpe d'Huez has a few marked on the piste map as never groomed. Or try somewhere busy at half term, and all the runs will appear unpisted by the afternoon
Personally I much prefer well-groomed runs no matter the gradient, so I've no problem with piste bashers running amok!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
When the ski press reviews resort they often comment on the quality of piste maintenance. Well groomed pistes are definitely seen as a positive.
in addition, you can keep groomed pistes open for longer in the season and % of open pistes sells lift tickets. Grooming pistes is very expensive business but resort do it to remain competitive.
One thing I've noticed over the years is the disappearance on piste bashers during the day. Twenty years ago you could be caning down a run with your hair on fire, fly over a hidden lip and fins a piste basher in your path. I suspect the insurance industry has had something to do with this change.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Quote: |
Pisted blacks may make them faster, and hence more dangerous, but fewer bumps makes them a great deal safer. Are people more likeley to hurt themselves going too fast down a black or lurching down the bumps? I'm 90% sure it's the latter.
|
My intuition would be that it's the former. But I have no evidence, not even chats with pisteurs.
I don't think Chamonix is a good example, so I won't use it. In the PDS however, particularly LG, Morzine, Avoriaz, Linga I don't see a great deal of difference in how the blacks are managed compared to the late 80s. With the exceptions that when new lifts were installed on Nyon (1990?) and Chamossiere (2012?) the re-siting of the top stations and remodelling of the runs in general made them easier. A particular disappointment wrt Aigle.
Fornet (Avoriaz) has always been the way it is, the "free ride/snowzone" label is just that - a label. Natural topography makes it a little tricky to groom!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
I am not sure that skiing has become more accessible
|
I'm sure it has, but more because (in the UK at any rate) the much greater affluence and growth of cheap flights etc now means that many families can afford a ski holiday whereas in the past it was just for the elite.
|
Define "elite". My state school ran skiing trips in the 1970s. Hardly "elite" even by then. Cheap flights are not new either, they just used to be called "charter flights" and those go back to the mid 1960s at least.
Bummer, I'm old enough to remember this stuff but not yet so old I've forgotten it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
@denfinella, I would agree with you on les arcs, it is my favourite for ski terrain, something for everyone. To be fair espace killy had quite low snow levels last January so everything was pisted to maintain the integrity of the pistes, EK was awesome when I was there on my 2nd week on skis in 1987, masses of snow, blue skies and a 6' tall nymphomaniac to keep me warm at night. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@tangowaggon, simple answer, Glencoe. Only the beginners greeen runs get pisted regularly and parts of main basin/happy valley to move the snow about if needed. Otherwise it is all as nature left it. Even the lifts are pretty 80s 
Hmm, fresh snow this week, when can I skive off??
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| T Bar wrote: |
@foxtrotzulu,
| Quote: |
Pisted blacks may make them faster, and hence more dangerous, but fewer bumps makes them a great deal safer. Are people more likeley to hurt themselves going too fast down a black or lurching down the bumps? I'm 90% sure it's the latter.
|
I disagree at least in terms of serious injuries, by and large it is speed that causes the serious injuries and people travel a lot slower with moguls around. |
In litigation terms, going to fast is a choice made by the skier. An unmarked hazard on an open piste due to poor maintenance is the fault of the resort. The ski industry is quite happy for skiers to hurt themselves, as long as it is the skier's fault, not the resort's. I'm surprised some US resorts don't get you to sign a disclaimer before skiing down some runs.
Piste grading has always been a subject of debate. Conditions are far more important than steepness in terms of difficulty to get down a run. The Rockies are famous for steep and deep but the snow's generally good, whereas I've heard it said that if you can ski the front four at Stowe you can ski anything in the world. I certainly found them very steep, mogulled, icy and busy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
|
|
|
|
@cameronphillips2000, bumps are not unmarked hazards  besides, it's a mountain, innit? I understand your point in the case of an indoor slope of course.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| under a new name wrote: |
| @cameronphillips2000, bumps are not unmarked hazards besides, it's a mountain, innit? I understand your point in the case of an indoor slope of course. |
It's not so much the bumps as the bare patches and big rocks. Those orange fencing boards with slow down, danger etc all over the mountain in Spring in front of big bare patches...
Anyway, if you want it tough, go to Stowe.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
Just back from my first ski trip to USA (Winter Park, Colorado). Lots of black runs there (especially in the Mary Jane zone), and I don't recall any of them being groomed. Bumps galore. Excellent! I may not be very good at skiing bumps, but I have in the past struggled to find on-piste bumps that are a suitable size, spacing and gradient upon which to practice. Here I am mainly referring to EK, 3V and Sella Ronda. There ARE good bumps to be found in 3V, but they all seem to be off to the sides of the groomed runs. I too like the American way (skiier's left = groomed, skiier's right = bumps) on the diamond blues. I also really like the terrain concept out there, where you can pretty much ski where you like within the resort limits.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
on-piste bumps that are a suitable size, spacing and gradient
|
my problem exactly. They are often the wrong size and nearly always in the wrong place.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
I'm not sure that a steep slope 'needs' moguls on it to be difficult. Nice to leave some blacks natural, but not all.
I strongly disagree that there is any place for moguls on blue runs. Blues should be pisted to within an inch of their lives. Its horrible when you are with an early intermediate and faced with a massive mogul field on what was a nice blue the day before.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| dogwatch wrote: |
| Define "elite". My state school ran skiing trips in the 1970s. Hardly "elite" even by then. Cheap flights are not new either, they just used to be called "charter flights" and those go back to the mid 1960s at least. |
Obviously I wish I'd picked your school, although it's unclear to me how that would enable my parents to pay my skiing bills. Maybe I should have picked richer parents? More "elite" parents?
---
Oh yeah, Winter Park - classic bump land, some brilliant steep runs there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| philwig wrote: |
| Obviously I wish I'd picked your school |
You didn't pick it. It picked you, if you passed your 11+. Elitist in that sense. Not socially or economically elitist, far from it. Lots of bright kids from a tough background.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Quote: |
Its horrible when you are (with) an early intermediate and faced with a massive mogul field on what was a nice blue the day before
|
Too true
The trouble is with resort grading variation black can mean anything from 'somewhat difficult red' to 'its so steep and mogulled, you'd better write your will before skiing it'. Steep and groomed is probably skiable for most intermediates, steep and 'au naturel' or steep and mogulled and most intermediates will be looking for a way out. I'd sooner not go up to anything that I can't see from below isn't bumped-up in case there isn't a way out once I'm up there. At least if the blacks are groomed at least once a day the moguls shouldn't be too huge and I can see that being attractive for most intermediate skiers. I'd say 'please carry on regularly grooming the blacks.'
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
@dogwatch, I did a ski trip in the 60s too - my school ran one, first ever, and the only one in my time there. It cost £40 which was the entire sum in my post office savings bank, which grandparents and others had been topping up since my birth.
Mine was a grammar school too - and the best one in the area. However, I had no friends whose families went skiing, and everybody on the trip was having their first ski holiday. There wasn't the slightest chance of my parents affording any kind of package/charter holiday, let alone a ski holiday. I didn't meet anybody who was a "skier" at university either - it wasn't at all common and any family who had a regular ski holiday in the 60s was, I would contend, much better off than average.
The size of the travelling public has increased enormously since then. The statistics are very clear - I'm surprised that anybody would query that. Interesting article http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/article-2672561/Package-holidays-flashback.html
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
@tangowaggon, exactly - black runs are supposed to be a test for good skiers, not an ego boost for intermediates. sorry if that makes me an elitist or pricks anyone's ego
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All ski runs are the same colur (IMV) -- white. Unless they are brown or grey.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Les ARCs piste map has red and black (pisted but not often) and "natur" red and black which are not. Similarly in Austria a lot of places have "skiroutes" or "freeride zones" which are avi controlled but not pisted, marked runs of all grades are normally pisted. Both systems let you know what you are getting.
Personally I like the skiroute/natur option, but only after fresh snow when they are safe semi-offpiste options. Once runs have been skied out into mogul fields I (and my knees!) would rather have a smooth steep black any day. I don't see many people who are so good at skiing smooth steeps properly (controlled fluid turns at the speed they want) that they need more bumps as a challenge. I reckon I could ski pisted runs for the rest of my natural life and not run out of challenge.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
I don't think it is just a matter of challenge it is also interest. I certainly haven't got the knees or stamina to bash moguls solidly but they undoudebtly add variety, they also add challenge at times,I welcome both at times.
Unbashed pistes also help people learn the transition from skiing nothing but groomed snow to skiing natural snow.
I am anything but a high end skier but the idea that all pistes should be manicured is a complete anathema.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@T Bar, with correct technique moguls are not necessarily hard on your knees, provided adequate flexibility and no existing joint damage...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
