@Designer156, ok - ski gear is made with a range of people in mind. Most people sit within this range. People that don't may need to pay more attention to their gear than others. Plagiarising those on the forum more expert than myself: 14" is considered a typical calf circumference and for every inch above this you will be pushed forward about 1/3" compared to what the boot designer had in mind. So your knee is about one and a third inches forward of where someone with less bulky calves would find themselves. I think that's worth a conversation with a fitter.
I had a similar experience with a well known west London bootfitter beginning with with "P". I ended up in a boot that fitted very well in every aspect other than I was tipped too far forwards as a result of my overly large calves. This was made worse by my lack of ankle flex. Took ages to work out what was going on partly as I assumed that the problem was purely technique based. The reality was that I had technique problems that were exacerbated by my gear dumping me in the backseat. Of course, fiddling with gear won't make you a better skier. It will just get you to the same starting point as everyone else.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
This is definitely an equipment issue. In pic 1, your centre of gravity (COG) looks like it's near enough above the centre of your boot, which is good. However, to achieve this correct COG position, you're having to take a back seat stance, which will become very tiring on the thighs even for the fittest skier. If you were to ski like pic 2, you'd have your COG over your big toe - too far forward - and would find it very hard to make anything other than snowplough turns.
Boots' forward lean can usually be adjusted. Another adjustment that is often overlooked is the angle that the binding gives. The difference in height between the toe plate and heel plate can be anything between 0-6mm as standard and can be adjusted as appropriate by the insertion of shims.
Out of interest, why did pro feet stick a heel lift in your boots?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Probably with checking out the recent thread titled 'thigh burn' on this forum. A user has posted a very useful pic that demonstrates appropriate and excessive forward lean as a result of the angle made by a combo of your boots and bindings. [/img]
I disagree, having seen some of the video posted by the OP. I don't think it is boots which mean his fore/aft is too far back, I think it is the movements that he is using. I don't think the boots are a contributing factor, but if they are it's very minor. I'm pretty sure that the OP will have no problem flexing the boots, so at some point in that range of movement his fore/aft will be balanced. However, if he habitually pushes his skis sideways and over-flexes at the knee early in the turn then he is always going to be relying on his quads to do more work than he would like.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@rob@rar, all the video shows is that he has some technical flaws. Those could easily be caused either by poor technique or he could be compensating for a combination of poor ankle flex and too much forward lean. We also know that he is way out of the normal range for calf size. I think that's worth a conversation with a fitter.
Having dealt with the big calves/too much forward lean issue personally, I have lost count of the number of instructors who told me that I skied in the backseat, that I needed to get forward, that bringing my hands forward would deal with my balance issues. And on and on and on. In order to actually get forward and come into balance I would have needed to flex my boots about .75"backwards. Funnily enough I could not do that. A handful of tweaks to my equipment and the issues evaporated. To be clear, I'm not saying it is definitely that. But he has all the signs and I think that is worth getting an expert view.
@gorilla, agree there's no harm in getting a decent boot fitter to look at his boots (and perhaps his bindings) to look at how they affect his alignment. Every little helps, as they say, but I think his boot setup will be more about fine tuning than making major changes. Photo 2 in the OP (described as standing/resting) shows him with his CoM above the balls of his feet, so clearly the boot setup doesn't make make a balanced fore/aft position impossible to achieve. Photo 1 shows him with his CoM on his heels, but the 2nd video he posted his fore/aft was further back than that because of over-flexing at the knee. I don't believe that's a compensatory measure because his large calves are closing his ankle joint too much and his hips are dropping back in response. I think it's a patterned movement.
@Designer156, apologies for talking about you in the third person!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Zero_G wrote:
KenX wrote:
2 bits of advice:
1/ ski like pic *2
2/ Drop the pink pants
Totally agree, pink pants make my legs tired too. I find I get less tired when wearing blue pants
Let us help with a free group analysis (we need you to post pictures and at least 2 videos)
After all it is free
After all it is free
The bloke has stated that even when just standing in them off of his skis his thighs are taking the strain. There's no way that this is a skiing tekkers issue. And you can marry my sister Dorris if I'm wrong.
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Quote:
Photo 2 in the OP (described as standing/resting) shows him with his CoM above the balls of his feet, so clearly the boot setup doesn't make make a balanced fore/aft position impossible to achieve.
He mentions that in photo 2 he is using his thigh muscles just standing in the boots. He's not in a balanced fore/aft position even if it might look like it. If you cannot achieve good fore/aft balance just standing in the boots - and he is clear that he can't - I'm not sure what movements you can make in order to bring yourself into balance on the hill.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
OK, best of luck to the OP. New boots might fix the problem, but I doubt it.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@rob@rar, It'll definitely fix the problem of burning thighs while standing up in the bar in his boots - this is a good start.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
A good workman always blames his tools
Burning thighs is exactly what I had as a week 5 skier. Think the OP even mentioned it... fighting the hill. Exercise can do nothing but minor alleviation of symptoms, and being able to take the punishment for longer.
My money would be spent on a few extra lessons, preferably with video, since they can/will always help. Then worry about kit if the lessons show you're a natural expert compromised by kit.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:
New boots might fix the problem
No one said new boots. If it is the boots, which it may not be, then it is probably a cuff stretch. That's a simple job for someone with the right gear and skills. Hence "have a chat with Colin".
Quote:
Then worry about kit if the lessons show you're a natural expert compromised by kit.
The guy has an 18" calf muscle. If you want to know what that feels like, put a 1" thick shim down the back of your ski boots.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I know all the suggestions for lessons and tekkers advice is well intended, but no amount of instruction on ski stance will affect the fact that his thighs are taking too much strain just by standing up in his boots on the floor. If that's the case then he'll never be able to ski well without thigh burn.
I'm not usually dogmatic, but from the description of his anatomy etc. and sexy pants pics, I'm 100% certain that this is an equipment issue.
It doesn't necessarily need new boots, just a visit to a fitter that knows his onions and can make the appropriate adjustments on the forward lean.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:
The guy has an 18" calf muscle. If you want to know what that feels like, put a 1" thick shim down the back of your ski boots.
Well given that every single buckle on my boots is at max extension, and only just clips the first available notch. Indeed need to do the velcro strap first to hold the clippy bits close enough together to hook the clip over, and clamp the ankle one down first to get the calf clip close enough.
Might get a ruler out tonight.
I'd wager that if I tried to recreate standing "normally" (which isn't really that normal compared to standing normally in walking shoes/boots), and tried to recreate ski position, it'd look much like pics 1 and 2 on the first page. And probably nothing like the ski pose captured on video on a coaching course.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I would guess that the 18" calf is a red herring too - the ski boot cuff is usually lower than the bulk of the calf and only the thinner tail end in the boot.
My calf is 16 inches at it's largest, so is 2" circumference smaller, which is a difference of 0.6" on the diameter, so as it is usually all on the rear of the leg, equivalent of a half inch wedge, not a one inch wedge.
But that is based on the widest part. the part of my leg at the top of my boot is 12" circ. so the wedge is 12/16 * 0.6 = 0.45 inches. Not so crazy.
From his photos and video - he needs to do what we all did as 5 week skiers - learn to be a 6 week skier. He is soooo in the back seat he gets tired and has to stop for rests all the time. I was still working on my back seat stance at 20 weeks.
So Designerthingyman : 1. Go skiing. 2. Find a way of standing up from your knees. 3. Enjoy long days int the mountains
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
There are some times where technique is not the answer. A few years back I was skiing with a woman who just could not get it. She had many days with instructors, and was always timid and tired. She was not particularly unfit, and had a generally positive outlook, enjoyed the whole skiing experience but was obviously not progressing as a skier.
She had professionally fitted boots (somewhere in London) but...when she stood on a flat surface with her boots a normal distance apart, they only touched ground on the outside edges !
Unfortunately, my observation that the boot fitter was in error and that her legs were not quite straight was a taken wrongly, and I know not if she ever got it sorted
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
lampbus wrote:
...when she stood on a flat surface with her boots a normal distance apart, they only touched ground on the outside edges !(
I once taught a beginner who had a very, very pronounced bow-legged stance. Made it very difficult to balance on the inside edge of his ski, and just about impossible to balance on both inside edges when trying to form a snowplough. Resulted in not much control and significant levels of frustration. It was only his second lesson so I said that his biomechanics would probably cause him difficulties for as long as he skied, but that he might like to try snowboarding where his stance would be much less of a problem. Saw him a few weeks later on a board, looking like he was making decent progress. Only time I've ever suggested someone give up on skiing!
@rob@rar, obviously it depends on the amount of leg misalignment, but many boots have a small amount of correction in the cuff for this - and I am sure either removing the pivot and re-machining it/new one OR wedging the boot sole OR for own skis, wedging the binding>ski mount would do wonders.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Designer156, your best bet would be to get some lessons before your bad habits are too engrained. And possibly, if you are serious, lose a bit of weight. But even overweight and unfit people can ski for a good long ime on undemanding terrain without getting tired legs if they have decent technique. And you get to rest on the lifts.
@lampbus, this guy's shape was pretty extreme, and while boot/binding modifications would have helped that seemed like a major commitment for someone who been on snow for less than 3 hours. He didn't seem particularly wedded to skiing and was happy to give boarding a go. Seemed like the easiest solution all round.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@Designer156, I get stuck in the backseat sometimes; especially at speed. Try to relax n focus on just flexing your ankles while you ski with arms forward. Notice how your body naturally repositions for balance and your shins rest on the front of your boots. I was doing just this today and it helped me - No aching quads.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Dear GOD! . . . that's so far past pink that even a flower that shade should be a night flowering embarassed hybrid
Just stop standing on your heels, relax your ankles, bring your pelvis forward and let your boots support your shins whilst feeling most of your mass through the balls of your feet.
As fer commando: Having discovered over here, old man jeans that are elasticated waistband, fleece lined with a built in mesh pouch for incontinence pads . . . going commando has never been so mmmmmmm 8)and stress free . . . it's like sticking your legs into a bag of warm puppies.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Blimmey some really interesting posts above.
My opinion is it is very hard to get into a ski position without actually having the skis on your boots, I certainly cant exert the pressure on my boot tongues that I use when actually skiing just standing in boots on a flat floor.
My calves are just over 17'' and have no problem with boots fitting this area of my legs, however having large calves and narrow ankles could create problems, but looking at your photos I don't think this is the case.
If you suffer with thigh pain while skiing, then this is probably down to tension in those muscles, caused by leaning back/sitting or by fatigue (maybe because of permanent tensing of muscles due to having anxiety about the terrain you're skiing on or speed) The cure for either could be covering high mileage to become more at ease with what you are doing and constantly pushing the hips forward, as well as many things already suggested.
One thing that has not been mentioned above (as far as I remember) is boot flex. If being of a larger size and your boot flex rating is too low, this might mean a more comfortable boot but also your leg muscles are not getting as much support as they may need and are having to work harder to keep you balanced. To explain, a skier who changes from high flex to low will perhaps feel like they are wearing Wellington boots as there is so much movement of the boot which is not transferred to the ski. The other way around and the skis will feel more responsive and less effort is needed. Before everyone rushes out to exchange their boots for Fischer Vacuum 150 flex, its worth bearing in mind that there is a trade off for comfort over longer periods of time in the boots. Much of the time my boots are left undone with the exception of the power strap, but when I need real performance they are fastened.
I hope you find resolution for the issue.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
mayr wrote:
My opinion is it is very hard to get into a ski position without actually having the skis on your boots, I certainly cant exert the pressure on my boot tongues that I use when actually skiing just standing in boots on a flat floor.
Good point, the delta angle of the bindings could change Mr-Pink-Pant's stance. Maybe renting a ski with a different binding for a day to see if it's any better might be worthwhile.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
It isn't the boots.
@rob@rar, has hit the nail on the head (as usual!).
See how day one goes (taking the hints above onboard), then grab a lesson on day 2.
Back-seat skiing makes hurty legs.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
OK last comment I'll make on this thread:
He's skiing back seat; this is correct. However, this is to compensate for the excessive forward lean that his boots are forcing his lower leg into (so that his weight can still be over the middle of the binding). This can't be corrected by any number of (costly) private lessons.
He should be able to stand up when not on skis in a relaxed extended stance without his thighs being 'tuned in'. Again, no skiing instruction will correct this, obviously.
The above can be probably fixed by a boot fitter for less than the cost of a 1 hour lesson. Speak to @CEM to either arrange an appointment or to get a recommendation of someone local.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@ben76, I disagree.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
1 costs money and might benefit
the other costs money and will benefit
everyone could benefit from option 2 regardless of their boot lean angle
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@rob@rar, guess it's up to the OP on what he wants to do then. Interested to see how and if he resolves this.
FWIW my assertion comes from a similar equipment issue I had about 5 years ago. I was getting knackered thighs for the first time in 30 years of skiing. It was due to the bindings on my new skis having a ramp angle that was putting me too far forward.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
ben76 wrote:
He should be able to stand up when not on skis in a relaxed extended stance without his thighs being 'tuned in'.
Assuming you mean while wearing ski boots? Just a minor forward lean of the boot cuff forces the leg into an unnatural position, so just standing there, statically, will eventually cause some burn no matter how your boots have been fitted.
But we're not talking about standing, the leg is not static when skiing. There are so many factors: strength, flexibility, stance and, of course, technique. He needs more lessons and practise anyway, as is evident from the clips he posted. So, that should be his first port of call.
The human body is adept at making necessary adjustments to outside forces as long as you have the strength, flexibility and skills/knowledge. Even after all the skiing I've done and the lessons I've had, I still fall into the backseat sometimes when I'm on very steep terrain that is variable. Because I know the signs and because I know what I should be doing, I can make the necessary corrections. No amount of boot adjustment will have given me these tools.
@rob@rar, guess it's up to the OP on what he wants to do then. Interested to see how and if he resolves this.
Of course. Good to have a discussion about a range of issues, and then the OP can make what he wants of the advice offered.
It's not that I'm discounting equipment issues, it's just that I think they rarely make a significant difference compared to the way in which the skier actually skis. I spend a lot of time trying to get my kit setup so it works for me: CEM is one of my favourite people in the industry who has done a lot of work on boots, liners and footbeds for me and who I always recommend to my clients; I'm one of the few people I know who shims bindings, where possible, to ski on a zero delta angle; and I shim both my baseboards by 3 degrees of supination. All these things make a difference to my skiing, but compared to whether I stand well on the ski at the beginning of the turn they are relatively insignificant.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Zero_G wrote:
But we're not talking about standing, the leg is not static when skiing.
Exactly right. There's too much chat about 'stance' and not enough thought about 'movement'. The skiers I see with a static stance are often unbalanced, mostly aft but often laterally. Help them to make movements during all three phases of the turn and the body will often find dynamic balance and their 'stance issues' automagically get resolved without talking about 'stance'. If they are making good movements but there are still stance issues then you can clean things up at that stage, but IMO it's not worth trying to perfect the perfect stance if it creates a static image in the skier's mind and a static position when they ski.
rob@rar, for me, the biggest revelation/improvement in my skiing (when everything changed), was when I finally got that dynamic thing going below the waistline while keeping a controlled upper body. I think of it as belly dancer skiing, if that makes sense
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
DB wrote:
Zero_G wrote:
KenX wrote:
2 bits of advice:
1/ ski like pic *2
2/ Drop the pink pants
Totally agree, pink pants make my legs tired too. I find I get less tired when wearing blue pants
Let us help with a free group analysis (we need you to post pictures and at least 2 videos)
Just for you Of course, in my country, 'pants' refers to outerwear, not underwear
After all it is free
After all it is free
Zero_G wrote:
I think of it as belly dancer skiing, if that makes sense
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
There's also 'the la bamba' (pulling/tucking the one hip back to initiate the turn).
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@Zero_G,
You know what I mean, here with the belly dancing pics & vids.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
