 Poster: A snowHead
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| Insiders wrote: |
Personally, I'm a believer in that everyone should have a Mountain License.
the rule would be very simple
1. You MUST have a Ski/Board license to buy a lift pass.
2. In order to get a Ski/Board license you complete lessons and a safety course and pass a test at the end of it.
3. You can accumulate points on your license (similar to a driving license) if you are caught speeding, drunk in charge of Ski/Board equipment (breathalyser required), skiing/boarding without due care and attention etc etc
4. If you Injure someone on the mountain you are liable for the injured parties expenses if you are proved at fault.
5. You must provide proof of insurance at the time of buying your pass - or buy a pass with insurance included.
6. If you accumulate enough offenses your license is suspended, your ski pass removed and you must pass a new ski/board & safety test before allowed on to buy a pass again.
7. repeat offenders are banned for 1 year, 3 years or life according to either the severity of the offenses or the amount of time you re-offend
In a world with an ever increasing population one must consider that the slopes will become more crowded. consider it preventative measures. |
That's a rubbish idea.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Nip the problem in the bud, and others : breeding licences.
Bearing children is not a right.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@dode,
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It is the 1% that need educated not the 99% that need over regulated.
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It is an onus on all of us to speak out and let those idiots know that their actions are unacceptable.
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+1
Had I have seen the accident that started this thread I'd have made damn sure that the individual responsible wasn't able to ski away. As with many aspects of life, IMHO, too many people abdicate their social responsibility and then wonder why things get worse. 
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@under a new name, 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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It really doesn't matter. Places like Whistler have "speed cops" not because their customers ask for them, but because it would be negligent to have no traffic control.
As far as the effect on the 99% of responsible people... it's a huge benefit: reduced risk of damage plus more pleasant slopes.
I ride fast at resorts, yet I've never been stopped. Similarly my car will hit its 150mph limit quite easily, yet I've never collected a speeding ticket or a parking fine. Getting "caught" isn't a random hazard, it's something we each control.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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While it's sad I can't help thinking that the billy blue run bomber is largely a Euro phenomenon. The "Whoa slow down cowboy!!" and "Speed monitored by aircraft" fences seem to do a good job in the US augmented by the hobby bobbies who will give the reckless a stern talking to. Maybe the Midwest and East coast is a bit different with more day trippers who are inclined to call Mars.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
@Insiders, that's completely over the top IMO. Vast majority of skiers and boarders are responsible, and the vast majority of skiers and boarders return from holiday after holiday having had a great time. Simply no need to create a massive bureaucracy, which would not guarantee to fix the isolated examples of dangerous skiing we see on the slopes.
Piste Patrol having the ability to dispense advice about responsible slope use, hand out warnings, and in the last resort pull liftpasses for a set amount of time seems like a sensible way forward. |
+1 let's be sensible please, the current legislation which we all have to abide by in our lives is more than enough, no more 'health & safety' personnel...far too many people in uniforms already! 
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If their are rules about picking up dog poo there should be rules governing Mountain Safety. Once upon a time there were hardly any laws, now there are loads - sometimes it takes an horrific accident/act to make a change - Who is willing to be the one killed/paralysed or sustain another life changing injury because someone else wanted to be reckless...
I haven't yet heard an actual sound response
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Insiders wrote: |
| If their are rules about picking up dog poo there should be rules governing Mountain Safety. |
So to synthesise, we should wrap up excessive speedsters in plastic bags and leave them dangling like little ornaments from fences or low hanging branches. Splendid idea.
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| I haven't yet heard an actual sound response |
Pleased to oblige.
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| Who is willing to be the one killed/paralysed or sustain another life changing injury because someone else wanted to be reckless. |
Anyone who goes skiing, apparently. We don't have to and that is the difference versus driving regulations. And yes I have had out of control skiers crash into me (twice in the last 2 years) and I wasn't exactly delighted. Most obvious solution, stop mountain restaurant selling alcohol. How's that for a popular suggestion? Doesn't bother me, I don't drink then ski.
Here's another. Put in slower lifts. 20 years ago we spent half the day queueing but the pistes were far less crowded. Do I hear applause for that one? I'm sure I could come up with others.
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| Insiders wrote: |
| I haven't yet heard an actual sound response |
I think you should say that you haven't heard a sound response you agree with. Several people have suggested that greater presence of police/piste patrol on the slopes would be a good thing, with examples from different resorts and countries. The fact that this doesn't meet your approval doesn't mean it isn't a sound idea.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Enforced long skinny skis, until you can a. zipline an approved bumpsfield and b. pass a written attitude (attitude, not aptitude) test.
Doesn't ruin anyones fun, we used to have a ball on 203s, and would solve the problem. Makes the control one of personal choice.
Would also boost the secondary market in old skis currently cluttering up garages.
Simples.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| ... pass a written attitude (attitude, not aptitude) test. |
That's the heart of the matter. IMO it's not a lack of technical skills that causes the worst of on-piaste collisions, it's a bad attitude. A lack of respect for your fellow slope users, a refusal to exercise personal responsibility for your actions. And then you have hit and run accidents, which takes things to a whole new level ...
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@rob@rar, actually, on the Les Houches home run to Prarion yesterday, there were a disturbing number of "accidents awaiting to happen" displaying both a lack of technical skill and a complete unawareness of that lack. That unawareness being the problem.
With apologies to those who don't know the area; The bloke who "tucked" - well in his head it was a tuck - the approach to the underpass could barely hold it together when trying to control his speed. Let's see, I have limited control so the sensible thing is to go beyond my capabilities and aim at a small gap in a concrete wall. What could possibly go wrong?
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You know it makes sense.
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| under a new name wrote: |
@rob@rar, actually, on the Les Houches home run to Prarion yesterday, there were a disturbing number of "accidents awaiting to happen" displaying both a lack of technical skill and a complete unawareness of that lack. That unawareness being the problem.
With apologies to those who don't know the area; The bloke who "tucked" - well in his head it was a tuck - the approach to the underpass could barely hold it together when trying to control his speed. Let's see, I have limited control so the sensible thing is to go beyond my capabilities and aim at a small gap in a concrete wall. What could possibly go wrong? |
Yes we do get a good few of "Stupid is Stupid does" in Les Houches, but more often in their choice of parking than piste antics.
If they are aproching and you are stationary POINT a ski pole in their direction, if you think they might still head in your direction have the handle against your thigh/hip - tends to discourage most 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@under a new name, it doesn't take a high level of skill to control your speed, even on a relatively steep slope. You must have seen many nervous plough-parallelers slowly picking their way down slopes that are too steep for them be happy on? Those skiers don't cause problems. It's the hotheads who think that going fast in a straight line, then putting in a quick z-shaped turn before going fast in a slightly different direction are the ones to worry about. Both skiers have equally poor technical skills, but only one of them is likely to crash in to the back of someone else breaking their tib and fib.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@rob@rar, no, really, these were rank beginners, but not at all nervous. Maybe the Army team's in town? Utterly bonkers, not all from the same group, just nuts. I most often notice them around Flaine but becoming endemic.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Idris, the parking can be quite choice.
I usually just get out of the way, uphill. The OH has had a few entertaining conversations...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@under a new name, ah, yes, seen a bit of that. All on the same type of skis?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@rob@rar, didn't notice - will pay more attention when we pop up today.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@rob@rar, + 1 as usual. Just recently had exactly that situation skiing with mates. One beginner just learning but very tidy and under control and willing to learn - no problem. Another a skidding bomber who thinks the best skier is the fastest who despite me having a quiet word a number of times took me out from behind when I was working on my turns and he was straight lining out of control. Fortunately I just slid out and he took a heavy fall without serious injury. Problem is I don't know how you educate these people that they are not as good as they think they are. I don't believe in draconian measures but I think a word from Piste patrol, instructors may help.
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@under a new name, been a while since I've seen a group which is obviously Army, but I vaguely remember seeing them on all white skis with holes in the tip to fix skins.
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When 99% of responses are either
'I think that's a stupid idea'
'I don't agree'
I fail to see how these are sound responses
What is the answer to out of control skiers who have absolutely no regard for anyones safety on the mountain ? Please, if there is such wisdom out there why are we not seeing actual responses to an increasing problem
My personal opinion is what I have already given - I'm not saying it makes me right, or wrong, but i'm entitled to my opinion regardless. Piste police should be present more, but apart from pulling passes what are they actually going to achieve when Jo/Joe public generally doesn't ski with any formal i.d. on them, at least a license would be able to bring more reprisals in to force - it is a form of I.d. AND can accumulate penalties. How do you deal with repeat offenders?
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@Insiders, of course you are entitled to your opinion (as are those who who thought your idea unworkable and disagreed with it).
I don't agree with your idea of exams and (global?) licences as it doesn't tackle the real problem (of attitude) because your scheme is based on a skills test.
Despite the severity of some collisions (your wife, IIRC?) it is still a very small risk, and I think your idea is entirely disproportionate. How would you respond if off-piste skiing were banned because of the small number of tragic events when skiers were avalanched by the actions of people cutting in above them? That would be an equally disproportionate response, IMO.
I would like to see something done to moderate the worst of behaviour, but exams and licences would be a huge effort for relatively little return, IMO. More piste patrols with the authority and remit to advise, caution and withdraw lift passes if necessary is a more proportionate response.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Insiders, uniform condemnation from all slope users would soon stop them. Everyone saying nothing, looking the other way and asking for piste police to hand out fixed penalties on some sort of licence is, frankly, ridiculous.
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| musher wrote: |
| Timbobaggins wrote: |
@Insiders,
You could apply that to just about anything,
1. You MUST have a Child Buggy/Pram license to buy a buggy or a pram ( especially those stupid three wheel "look I jog with my sprog ones" ).
2. In order to get a Buggy/Pram license you complete lessons and a safety course and pass a test at the end of it.
3. You can accumulate points on your license (similar to a driving license) if you are caught speeding around the aisle of Tesco/Waitrose/Lidl/Aldi whilst on phone to Chardonnay your best mate discussing rubbish without due care and attention etc etc
4. If you Injure someone you are liable for the injured parties expenses if you are proved at fault.
5. You must provide proof of insurance at the time of buying your buggy/pram ( higher excess for those stupid "I jog with my sprog" ones
6. If you accumulate enough offenses your license is suspended, your buggy/pram is removed and you must pass a new buggy/pram safety test before allowed on to buy a pram/buggy again.
7. repeat offenders are banned for 1 year, 3 years or life according to either the severity of the offenses or the amount of time you re-offend
In a world with an ever increasing population one must consider that the aisles will become more crowded. consider it preventative measures.
Please apply above rules to just about anything. |
I would extend this scheme to supermarket trolleys as well  |
+1
.. and an MOT test for 'em so I do't keep getting the one with the wonky squeeky wheel.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| dode wrote: |
| @Insiders, uniform condemnation from all slope users would soon stop them. Everyone saying nothing, looking the other way and asking for piste police to hand out fixed penalties on some sort of licence is, frankly, ridiculous. |
My point is not ridiculous - It's an idea - perhaps it needs some refining but to write something off simply because you disagree with it is rather fool hardy and rather (i'm sorry to say) narrow.
Cars were invented in the 1800's yet licenses where issued in 1903 with no driving test required until 1930 - I imagine the arguments for licenses and tests were similar to those being had today about skiing - yet, we still have licenses and tests for drving
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Insiders, that would certainly solve the problem, if only because it would reduce by two thirds the number of people out there in the first place. How many holidaymakers are going to bother if they have to do that sort of thing? And who do you imagine is going to administer your test/licence system? Do you envisage roping in every skiing nation in the world? Good luck with the French.
Also, rule 4 is already in force, and rule 5 is just a way of lining the pockets of insurance companies - why shouldn't I self insure if I can afford to? Why should anyone who already has assurance civile (ie pretty much every French skier out there) be forced to pay for duplicate insurance? Besides which, it would be of no relevance at all in the case of hit and run types, who would, by definition, already have disappeared without leaving their insurance details.
This isn't about wintersports, it's about general good manners and consideration. Maybe you should propose your system to the government, which could have schools administer tests and issue people with licences to go out in public and interact with the rest of us. Anyone who failed the test or subsequently behaved in an anti-social manner could be spanked. Or made to pick up litter - that's usually a popular punishment, for some reason.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
This isn't about wintersports, it's about general good manners and consideration. Maybe you should propose your system to the government, which could have schools administer tests and issue people with licences to go out in public and interact with the rest of us. Anyone who failed the test or subsequently behaved in an anti-social manner could be spanked. Or made to pick up litter - that's usually a popular punishment, for some reason. |
Perhaps we should have a board of people citing what is good manners then to give you some kind of clarification - not everyone's version of good manners is the same you know
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You know it makes sense.
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| Insiders wrote: |
| Cars were invented in the 1800's yet licenses where issued in 1903 with no driving test required until 1930 - I imagine the arguments for licenses and tests were similar to those being had today about skiing - yet, we still have licenses and tests for drving |
But - with limited exceptions such as boxing - we don't for sports and recreations where assuming risk is voluntary. That is a key difference.
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| My point is not ridiculous |
I'm afraid it is. There isn't an earthly chance of resorts buying into it or of governments mandating it.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Sun 1-02-15 13:15; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Insiders, we already have speed cops on the roads, it doesn't stop drivers from speeding.
Because one doesn't agree with a unworkable suggestion doesn't make one narrow.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| dogwatch wrote: |
| Insiders wrote: |
| Cars were invented in the 1800's yet licenses where issued in 1903 with no driving test required until 1930 - I imagine the arguments for licenses and tests were similar to those being had today about skiing - yet, we still have licenses and tests for drving |
But - with limited exceptions such as boxing - we don't for sports and recreations where assuming risk is voluntary. That is a key difference.
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| My point is not ridiculous |
I'm afraid it is. There isn't an earthly chance of resorts buying into it or of governments mandating it. |
Well. tough just because I believe it would be a good thing for the mountain doesn't mean I'm wrong or it is ridiculous - otherwise all those who believe in religion could cast with the same brush - oh wait... that's what science does for us 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| dode wrote: |
@Insiders, we already have speed cops on the roads, it doesn't stop drivers from speeding.
Because one doesn't agree with a unworkable suggestion doesn't make one narrow. |
But you still have to have a license and it makes implementing punishments easier
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Insiders wrote: |
| Well. tough just because I believe it would be a good thing for the mountain doesn't mean I'm wrong or it is ridiculous |
It's ridiculous because it is contrary to the economic interests of resorts and what's contrary to the economic interests of resorts is contrary to the interests of governments.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Oh well - looks like we'll have to agree to disagree - neither you or I are wrong or right...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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but, @Insiders, we already have a licensing system. It's called the lift pass.
Consider, how often (ignoring car rental, etc. buying drinks if you're youthful, et al.) do you actually have to produce your driving licence, unless you've done something wrong.
How often is your attitude tested? How often are your skills re-tested? I think I am a safe and competent driver (notwithstanding that I nearly knocked someone down this afternoon - "he jumped out in front of me, honest, officer") but I know for a fact that I couldn't even pass the current UK theory test (cos I've tried the practice and failed miserably. Some of the road signs weren't even invented when I sat my test (passing first time I'll have you know).
So back in the real world, just as if you injure someone while driving, there already exists a robust structure of law that will deal with you. If it's a minor misdemeanour (e.g. speeding in the slow zone) your lift pass will be docked or removed and you might be banned from that hill.
I'm not sure that anything extra is required - other than tuition and better publicisation of the skier's rules.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Simples. Everyone has a camera phone - if you see an offender, take their photo and supply it to any injured party and the piste authorities. No real need for any 'policing' in my not so humble opinion.
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In Europe we cherish Free Skiing.
There is no appetite for American style Ski Patrols.
In Austria there already exists a code of conduct. People take risks but if an accident is caused and you do not stop you can expect a severe punishment.
During the high Season (St Anton) the Federal Police are on the slopes (they where red jackets with a clear Polizei badge)
Millions of people ski in the Alps every season & the actual collisions, fatalites etc if a tiny fraction.
I would suspect that more people die or are injured in transit to the Alps??
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| c44rver wrote: |
| Everyone has a camera phone |
This "everyone" doesn't generally carry a phone when skiing.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@c44rver, yes, a photo of someone wearing a helmet and goggles and with a buff pulled up over their nose should clarify things no end.
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| Insiders wrote: |
| My point is not ridiculous |
True. It's not ridiculous, as it's way beyond that. Skiing is fun and it's certainly not mandatory thing. If you would want to regulate it so much, you obviously have serious issues with it, so why the hell do you even do it? Find some other hobby where other's don't bother you all that much.
Otherwise yes, sure put police on courses. And put all sorts of limits, but too bad you are not getting the point. What is out of control and dangerous? Me going down 100km/h or someone who is "skiing" twice a year and going down 40km/h completely out of control? Based on this, that in all these years of me skiing I have passed by numerous policemen on courses and noone ever giving me any problem, except few nice chats with some of them on lifts up, I would assume I'm not really danger on skis, even if I ski faster then most of others on courses.
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FAQ
