 Poster: A snowHead
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Some adult beginners just find the plough difficult and people with knee/hip injuries often have trouble. In such cases I try going to direct parallel, starting with sideslipping and braquage. This does require moving to slightly steeper terrain but if necessary I use a 2m pole (i.e. a slalom gate pole) and we ski side by side holding the pole so that the beginner gets some help with balance and gains confidence. We then go back to flatter terrain and learn the hockeystop. Although the snowplough is the time-honoured stepping stone to learning parallel skiing, it's not the only method.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@nailzstomp, I had a huge problem with the snowplough when I first started. After 4 days of ski school I was still getting right turns wrong but couldn't work out why and the instructor couldn't either - she just kept saying 'like this, like this!'. Obviously I wasn't but she couldn't see or tell me what I was doing wrong.
On the verge of giving up, someone else spotted what I was doing - on turning right I was trying to put the left ski on it's outside edge. I wasn't doing the opposite when turning left so I can't even explain why I was doing that.
Maybe there is something that you're not quite doing right and it just needs someone to spot it and explain.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Unfortunately, skiing is quite technical and, like everything, gets better with practice. I often go into a snowplough when going through a thin traverse in busy traffic as I find it gives me the best opportunity to change direction to both sides very quickly. When I do it, it reminds me of just how hard work it is. You wouldn't drive a car with both front wheel pointing inwards - it would soon wear out! It is part of the early learning curve though and can be frustrating. The only tip I have is try and learn on very wide slopes as going sideways across the slope lessens the gradient and allows you to keep your speed down. Take your time getting the right boots too, even when hiring. The boot is the connection between you and those things guiding you down the slope. Too tight and you'll be in pain, too loose and you'll have no control. I remember changing boots on day 2 of my first ski trip 28 years ago. It transformed my holiday.
The great joy of skiing, however, is that the better you get, the easier and less painful it becomes. As you get older, it helps exercise between the skiing too.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Without reading the whole thread...
When teaching the plough it should be presented more as a means to aid balance than for speed control. Steering helps speed control through line choice and turn size/shape a snowplough helps you to develop all of these skills. I introduce the plough by comparing it to when you learn to ride a bike, it is you stabiliser a means to an end.
It is useful in plenty of places though even for a high level skier, just arriving in a queue or slowing behind someone on a flatter and perhaps narrow pathway.
I have taught perhaps 1500-1700 hours in the last 4 seasons. You do see some odd things going on in the plough. Most commonly I will see people trying to use their outside edges of the ski. Or going weak at knees and allowing the knees to touch one another. Often the issue is psychological and so they simply need you skiing in front and offering a helping hand and additional speed control to give them a safe learning environment. I have never taught a single person who could not make a plough given the right guidance and time. That includes people with severe dyspraxia.
Good luck with it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Just quickly scanning this thread... looks like FranzClammer is the closest to 'the truth'. Some got close - as it is a fundamental - for a brief time. It should be mastered eventually. The real deal with the snowplow is that it is called THE WEDGE: The GLIDING WEDGE. A Narrrow Gliding Wedge is a very handy thing.
In the wedge the outside leg is the same as the outside leg in a parallel turn. The body shape is similar because the basic stance ( Getting Ready For A Serve in Tennis ) is balancing on bent legs. Legs that turn in the hip sockets with the feet; turning - STEERING- in the same direction at the same time and same amount.
Wedges are why our first vehicle is a tricycle... or a bike with training wheels
The real trick is learning on shallow slopes so you can fearlessly GLIDE ON FLAT SKIS. In a narrow wedge; use gravity to slow you down by completing the turns, to the same speed you started them with.
The reason WEDGES are an early exercise is that the new outside ski already has some STEERING ANGLE built into a turn.
LEARN TO STAND ON THIS NEW OUTSIDE SKI AT THE START OF A NEW TURN. Ride it right around until it becomes the new INSIDE SKI = Independant Legs at first.
Basic fundamentals of some amount upper/lower body separation apply - as you come across the fall-line; keep your body facing a bit to the outside of the turn .
The body only faces the same direction as the skis while you are pointing downhill - in the fall-line.
So many instructors teaching WEDGE TURNS miss the upper/lower body separation and this delays learning the power of edging the (outside) ski through angulation.
Any faint evidence that the inside ski can turn parallel by moving and turning the inside knee/foot to match the outside foot/knee/leg is to be rewarded and praised immediately.
Slither around into parallel ASAP. Continue slithering and looking for Steering + Edging and Separation + Angulation.
This is not a braking snow plow - which is, as you have found; wayyy too much like work. Riding both inside edges at the same time is only for slow speed stops.
Learn how to side-slip and glide diagonally on a flat ski.
** Learn about how ski boots fit and where FLAT is so you can learn that ski bases should move in parallel.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| gforce wrote: |
Just quickly scanning this thread... looks like FranzClammer is the closest to 'the truth'. Some got close - as it is a fundamental - for a brief time. It should be mastered eventually. The real deal with the snowplow is that it is called THE WEDGE: The GLIDING WEDGE. A Narrrow Gliding Wedge is a very handy thing.
In the wedge the outside leg is the same as the outside leg in a parallel turn. The body shape is similar because the basic stance ( Getting Ready For A Serve in Tennis ) is balancing on bent legs. Legs that turn in the hip sockets with the feet; turning - STEERING- in the same direction at the same time and same amount.
Wedges are why our first vehicle is a tricycle... or a bike with training wheels
The real trick is learning on shallow slopes so you can fearlessly GLIDE ON FLAT SKIS. In a narrow wedge; use gravity to slow you down by completing the turns, to the same speed you started them with.
The reason WEDGES are an early exercise is that the new outside ski already has some STEERING ANGLE built into a turn.
LEARN TO STAND ON THIS NEW OUTSIDE SKI AT THE START OF A NEW TURN. Ride it right around until it becomes the new INSIDE SKI = Independant Legs at first.
Basic fundamentals of some amount upper/lower body separation apply - as you come across the fall-line; keep your body facing a bit to the outside of the turn .
The body only faces the same direction as the skis while you are pointing downhill - in the fall-line.
So many instructors teaching WEDGE TURNS miss the upper/lower body separation and this delays learning the power of edging the (outside) ski through angulation.
Any faint evidence that the inside ski can turn parallel by moving and turning the inside knee/foot to match the outside foot/knee/leg is to be rewarded and praised immediately.
Slither around into parallel ASAP. Continue slithering and looking for Steering + Edging and Separation + Angulation.
This is not a braking snow plow - which is, as you have found; wayyy too much like work. Riding both inside edges at the same time is only for slow speed stops.
Learn how to side-slip and glide diagonally on a flat ski.
** Learn about how ski boots fit and where FLAT is so you can learn that ski bases should move in parallel. |
To be fair, you'd hope Franz Clammer would know what he's on about, what with all those medals and stuff.
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Hi Nailzstomp,
Another that hasn't read the whole thread (scanned through a bit) but just wanted to let you know you're not alone.
20+ years ago on a dry slope I really struggled with skiing, specifically snowploughing and getting my legs to go in different directions to each other.
A few years later I tried dry slope snowboarding and loved it! However all my friends ski...
After not being a beginner anymore on a snowboard I tried skiing again. I didn't know how to snowplough but could do hockey stop style stops and skids to take speed off and seemed to ski ok (and enjoyed it). I have subsequently learnt to snowplough and now I can happily snowplough with a child between my legs when she wants to have 'cuddle ski' time (and use it other times too).
So although it is a useful skill, I don't think that for everyone it is necessary to learn it first! It's probably a lot easier for the instructors to know you can 'fall back' into the snowplough though if things become too difficult.
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It's not essential to learn to plough as a beginner skier - it's mainly used as a wider base of support and as a quicker way to learn to turn basically because the outside ski is already on the inside edge and ready turn. If you don't use a plough to slow and stop at first then it is essential to turn to a stop - turning all the way across the slope and slightly up hill (just don't hold it too long or you will slide backwards). Most people who learn direct to parallel will eventually automatically wedge/plough at some point, and most of us ski permanently in a small wedge even when we think we are parallel.
If you really do want to wedge/plough then it's essential that you are not just pushing the heels out (a rotary movement), but also tipping on to your inside edges (edging movement). You can make as big a plough/wedge as possible but if your skis are still flat then you won't slow down (little kids ski in a flying wedge with flat skis). "Think" about using your feet and ankles to wedge, rather than your knees and legs, it usually results in a much finer movement and helps to avoid the knees collapsing inwards and locking together.
I will also say that if you aren't learning with one instructor then find someone else - we all teach and learn differently. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| call me dave wrote: |
| I know this is tantamount to blasphemy, but have you tried snowboarding? Others may have some feedback as to whether it's the dark side and must not be touched at this point in your learning process with skis, but it could be worth a try if you find parallel to be a huge struggle too? Given the amount of time spent falling over it's probably best tried in a dome in the UK though rather on icy Swedish slopes... |
If he's on icy slopes I would not recommend switching to boarding!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Took me ages to get a half decent braking plough. Fine turning but just could not brake in a straightt line. Can now, but only really useful in queues. Turning is a far more effective brake than a plough.
The edging movement is easier once edges in general are understood, and the angle required initially isn't easy when tense...
Still wish there was a straight line braking option for exiting full lifts into messy unload areas - got caught with no space to snowplough (neighbours' skis) and aimed straight for idiot stood in exit area with gaps for neighbours but not me once. Not impressed, and still hate full chairlifts as couldn't see anything I could have done differently to prevent the crash.
Lifties enforcing the move out the way idiots stuff would help most of all
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Randomsabreur wrote: |
Still wish there was a straight line braking option for exiting full lifts into messy unload areas - got caught with no space to snowplough (neighbours' skis) and aimed straight for idiot stood in exit area with gaps for neighbours but not me once. Not impressed, and still hate full chairlifts as couldn't see anything I could have done differently to prevent the crash.
Lifties enforcing the move out the way idiots stuff would help most of all |
You're allowed to shout "Get out of the way!!" Add expletives as required 
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