 Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
| ... for an appropriate fee. |
And there you have it folks...safety my ar$e!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| TTT wrote: |
| If this is a service that people really want then far better that it is offered by someone who is qualified to do it for an appropriate fee. If it is not something that people are willing to pay for then it is not something that they really value. |
I think the point is whether you really need to be an instructor to guide people around the mountain on piste.
I agree there should be some sort of qualification for it, but not as stringent as being an instructor or an off-piste guide. I worked as a rep for Crystal in Les Arcs a few years back when "ski hosting" was allowed; all reps were instructed and assessed on skiing ability and guiding ability by a BASI instructor and needed to pass that assessment to be allowed to progress (there was also a day or so of classroom based instruction on "how-to" guiding, emergency action, avalanche instruction from Henry's and other stuff). I'd be the first to argue that the level of instruction was pretty light, but I'd also suggest that you don't need that much more to be a host for social skiing other than knowing the resort runs inside out (which I and everyone else in the team certainly did within a very short time; after a couple of weeks of in-resort training which included quite a few days on the mountain I'm pretty sure I never had use of a piste map once customers turned up).
As for the comment about people being willing to pay for it, I think many would be surprised to see how few people actually take up the offer of free guiding. From my experience there were typically around 500-600 guests in resort, yet we never had more than 30 odd for a day. Most often it was less than 20, on a few occasions just single figures. I've seen various comments such as "it's why I booked with XXXX", but I feel this is very much a minority opinion and in most cases it is a nice to have service that less than 5% of guests actually make use of. That's just my personal experience of it though.
I see it as a shame that it is biting the dust, but I also feel there could be a compromise to be made from both sides.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I imagine the tour operators hate that they can't do this as it offers something extra to customers which isn't really available elsewhere and which costs the tour operator pretty much nothing, as they are employing the reps anyway.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| madlondoner wrote: |
| I imagine the tour operators hate that they can't do this as it offers something extra to customers which isn't really available elsewhere and which costs the tour operator pretty much nothing, as they are employing the reps anyway. |
Well yes. Haven't you just summed up repping there? There are many things that TOs do that aren't available elsewhere except for a cost, and which TO's offer "as they are employing the reps anyway" . Guiding is just one. That's kind of the point of a TO holiday, isn't it?
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@Dav, it is an aspect of a TO holiday IMHO. Not the point of a TO holiday.
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I'm capable of reading a piste map but have found skiing with a host a congenial way to spend half a day. It's daft to regard it as either instruction or "guiding".
I haven't the slightest interest in peering at an unreadable app in bright sunlight.
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It really is a very small minority who use the service so it comes across as yet again a small vocal minority using any excuse to get into a froth about the different culture of people from other countries.
The problem is people tend to get led into group mode rather than make a decision as a group and do things they would not otherwise do led by people with very little if any training, experience or language skills. My experience is reps really should not be leading groups. On the other hand had a great experience with a fully qualified local instructor who had the skills to assess the group, deal with situations, speak the language to deal with any problems, give us some local background and spend the day with people from other countries. If there really is a demand for such a service then this is what should be offered. Personally don't see the big deal about reading a Piste maps and markers.
Some Brits seem to get excited about these things because of the general inability to speak a second language unlike people on the continent and a small stretch of water between the island mentality and the continent.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@TTT, you are over-analysing it I think. The holidaymakers who use the service tend to do so as a social event, to meet other holidaymakers and make friends. Some people are just more sociable than others. The rep 'leading' the group really doesn't need any qualifications to do this (other than local knowledge of where the best snow is). If they weren't skiing as a group then they would be skiing independently, on the same pistes.
I don't see any frothing going on in this thread....
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| TTT wrote: |
| It really is a very small minority who use the service |
Very small minority of those taking package holidays? What's your evidence for that? Anecdotally, I doubt it is true and I also doubt TOs would offer a service that only a "very small minority" wanted.
Sorry but all evidence is that few Brit holidaymakers very much want to socialise with those from other countries. If they did they would and mostly, they don't.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I understand the concept. I've used it and it has been good fun but I also understand the issue as I've see the problems caused by being led by someone without appropriate qualifications as the group dynamic is different.
When I've used such a service very few have turned up compared to those in hotel/opening meet up but that is anecdotal and refer to comment from rep above who knows better which indicates very small percentage use service once a week.
Liikewise what is your evidence that Brits are generally xenophobic? Mates I ski with happily mix with locals. I don't think the majority of the UK population reads the daily mail or is a member of UKIP so not sure that is true. The main barrier in practice is the generally relatively poor language skills of Brits. My experience is that people from other countries also just want to have fun on snow. Curiously just like me even though they come from a different country. Strange as it may seem to some people.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@TTT, it is you that is getting into a froth, it is not a thread about xenophobia. Crystal did not discriminate the nationality of the group. I would not spend money to hire a guide to tootle around the pistes, piste maps are provide free. I will pay for tuition or for an off piste adventure where knowledge of the terrain & avalanche danger is essential.
| Dav wrote: |
| That's kind of the point of a TO holiday, isn't it? |
The point of a T.O. holiday v DIY is a package of flight, transfer & accommodation is organised for you and it is the T.O.'s responsibility to sort things if things go wrong. Anything else is incidental
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| TTT wrote: |
| It really is a very small minority who use the service |
So why ban it?
IMHO it's less about culture or language and more about business. Times are tough, folks are cutting back with fewer ski trips and perhaps even fewer lessons. Instructors are seeing revenues drop and feeling the squeeze, perhaps? But all those punter-pounds are still coming in by the bus-load, week-in-week out. 'Hmmm...how can we get more of their money?' That's business and it's understandable; but then so might be the protest, non? Little to do with lingo.
Anyhow, I doubt the protest will amount to more than a good whinge.
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You know it makes sense.
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@TTT, what would you regard as appropriate qualifications for taking a bunch of holidaymakers down a piste? What problems have you seen that wouldn't have occurred if they had these qualifications?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| TTT wrote: |
| Liikewise what is your evidence that Brits are generally xenophobic? |
Not what I said. Not even vaguely close to what I said.
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Poster: A snowHead
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It is about different culture and language otherwise people would not make a fuss about it as they would understand that different people have different ways of doing things. Not something I can get excited about personally at all as never featured in a debate about where to ski and ski with lots of different people.
If other people are not willing to pay for it seems they don't value it much either. That not many use service suggests the grounds for banning it are indeed safety.
Personally will only follow minimum experienced level 2 or level 3 otherwise I make my own decisions. I've said previously the problems I've seen and on that basis I can see that being led around by reps who really have no idea is not a great idea.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@dogwatch,  just giving you back some of your own repeated medicine. So why do people want to stay in their own herd?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@TTT, "the problems caused by being led by someone without appropriate qualifications as the group dynamic is different. "
What conceivable problems are you talking about?
I did 3 seasons as a rep/guide. We had 70 bed capacity in our company and my recollection is that we had more or less all clients ski with us at least one day and full 10 pax parties every day.more of a social thing I think, although I was working the PDS which is not a small area.
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@TTT, it's a bit harsh on the reps to say they really have no idea. On reading back to find the problems you experienced, it is wrong to bring off-piste into the thread, that is not what this is about.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| TTT wrote: |
| @dogwatch, just giving you back some of your own repeated medicine. |
Then perhaps you should consider why your communications are, apparently, so often misunderstood.
| Quote: |
| So why do people want to stay in their own herd? |
Shared culture. Shared language. Not the same as xenophobia. I spent half last week in a meeting conducted half in English, half in German. The Germans spoke perfectly good English so why switch to German and exclude the English speakers? Because it was easier for them. Nothing wrong with that, not "xenophobic".
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I really can't get excited about the topic one way or the other as not something often use and not seen other people use it much either. I'm just explaining their perspective.
In a group I find we make decisions as a group and as I have more experience it is often myself but you know people's abilities and we make a decision as a group and we do different things if someone is not comfortable. If someone is a leader of a group then there is a tendency for people to follow where they would not otherwise go so a greater propensity for potential problems. E.g. I know the resort, I know the reps to talk to and I'm thinking interesting route selection for holiday skiers to take a marked route at end of day when the conditions were likely to be difficult. They got down fine just not a lot of it was on skis. Another time we helped the tour rep down. No big deal. Anecdotal but I can see why it might be an issue based on my limited experience where issues arose.
I think my communications are misunderstood because people choose not to read what I have said or the relevant laws, rules and regulations as they have an agenda which blinds them. I think a lot of xenophobia which is a natural biological defensive tendency is down to language and culture. Speak the language and the barriers invariably come down and you realise the similarities. Different countries have different ways of thinking so it is difficult for them to understand that you might not have to be qualified to do something.
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When I used it was because I was skiing on my own and wanted the social side of people to ski with. It wasn't anything to do with getting direction or instruction from the rep and I doubt many people are actually doing it for that reason.
I've already paid for the hotel, flight, ski hire and lift pass. Why should I pay what would be overpriced cost for someone to ski us to lunch when if it weren't for local ski schools wanting to make more money, it would be included anyway. Furthermore when people have paid loads, it turns into a lesson by default, rather than skiing to lunch.
Anything which makes people enjoy their holiday in that resort more and therefore more likely to return is in the resort's best interest.
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| TTT wrote: |
| I think my communications are misunderstood because people choose not to read what I have said or the relevant laws, rules and regulations as they have an agenda which blinds them. |
I see, all your readers' fault then.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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You survey the mkt and if that is a reason for choosing a resort then you lay the service on. My perspective is it is not a reason for choosing a resort for the vast majority? A lot more people are willing to pay a fee for a bar crawl then attend the free social ski in my experience so not a decision maker for most people.
I think only a few people with a dogmatic agenda choose to misunderstand me.
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OK, so what percentage of the
| Quote: |
| very small minority who use the service |
will think, "Oh, now my TO is not doing hosting, I'm going to book lessons with ESF instead."?
Yeah, right  .
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Very few indeed I'd imagine. The vast majority of holiday skiers are happy to skid around out of balance. Some people may have to concede it's being disallowed for safety reasons. The indignation against the french even when it's a thread about Italy when the Italians barely get a whimper suggests some people's issue really is nationalistic.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| TTT wrote: |
| Very few indeed I'd imagine. The vast majority of holiday skiers are happy to skid around out of balance. Some people may have to concede it's being disallowed for safety reasons. The indignation against the french even when it's a thread about Italy when the Italians barely get a whimper suggests some people's issue really is nationalistic. |
But there's no indication that the Italians are in fact taking action. Seems more about Crystal finding a pretext to save some £££.
Personally, I'm well aware that Brits would be more likely to find anti-Brit sentiment in Italy than in France. WWII casts a long shadow.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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What do they save though if reps there anyway? Seems more that it is because it is illegal also in Italy and they want to avoid any legal or insurance issues.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Work time presumably has to be paid for.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| pam w wrote: |
| Anybody who doubts that a great many Brits including a fair few Snosheads have a "thing about the French" hasn't been paying attention. |
Nor has anyone who thinks all Italians are Anglophiles.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Marginal if any cost. Not aware anyone has posted all Italians are Angopliles?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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TOs are marginally profitable, marginal costs matter. No, nobody has posted all Italians are Anglophiles. Quite right.
Well TTT, you've worn me down with boredom. Won't be responding to you again, probably to the great relief of others.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Indeed TOs are marginally profitable so makes no sense to offer a service which people are not willing to pay extra for and is illegal so risks additional legal costs. The TO that makes so much money out of its customers and employees that it can afford to ignore the law and go through protracted legal proceedings is a rare or not particularly intelligent operation.
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I don't see the problem in terms of using staff time effectively. Most TO staff should be capable of doing more than one job. The ski guide when I stayed in a Ski Olympic chalet used to help with meal preparation and clearing up, transfer driving, snow clearance and odd bits of maintenance. Instead of ski guiding staff could be cleaning toilets, chopping vegetables (having washed their hands) or sorting out blocked drains. They're not likely to be sitting round reading Proust (or Dante). Ultimately, if you cross one quite time-consuming task off the list they can probably manage with fewer staff.
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Nor is it common, thankfully, to read negative stereotypical generalisations about "the Austrians" or "the Italians" of the kind which crop up almost daily about "the French" (and less frequently about Russians). Anybody who doubts that a great many Brits including a fair few Snosheads have a "thing about the French" hasn't been paying attention. wink
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See "1000 Years of Annoying the French" by Stephen Clarke. Actually this is the best book I have read about American history
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| dode wrote: |
| @TTT, what would you regard as appropriate qualifications for taking a bunch of holidaymakers down a piste? What problems have you seen that wouldn't have occurred if they had these qualifications? |
Any chance of an answer ?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@dsoutar, see earlier posts.
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| TTT wrote: |
| It really is a very small minority who use the service so it comes across as yet again a small vocal minority using any excuse to get into a froth about the different culture of people from other countries. |
But the British culture is to have these "leaders", an activity which has been perfectly safe and legal for years. That argument works both ways.
The suggestion that these closed shops have any connection with safety is risible.
I guess people will vote with their feet - there are plenty of places without such restrictive practices.
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FAQ
