 Poster: A snowHead
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2008 was won because the charge was running an illegal ski school - his model of ski school was not shown to be substantially different to a French model. The whole situation was not looked at though. The last couple of guilty verdicts have been for - not proper qualifications and not declaring and then not proper qualifications Both cases he was found guilty and has appealed.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Stewart, what I meant to say was that there was a picture of SBS licence he posted on FB which highlighted that he did not have the EMS
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| TTT wrote: |
| Stewart, what I meant to say was that there was a picture of SBS licence he posted on FB which highlighted that he did not have the EMS |
Lots of ISTD's don't have L4 EMS. When the 'Grandfather agreement' was made the level was the current L3 MS.
So are they safe 
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Unless there has been a great miscarriage of justice that needs rectifying, yes of course they are. This case was who should be allowed to work now, not then. Simon Butler's personal case may be different but I guess that's what appeals are for.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Saint wrote: |
In Austria, get almost any qualification and come and work for us - it's easy! In return you can make profit for us and we will feel good and get richer (You will not be paid very well). Please do not think of getting the same qualifications as us though, because we do not want you to get any of our profits!
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I know many British, as well as instructors of other nationalities including non-EU countries who have Austrian qualifications. There is nothing to prevent any nationality qualifying under the Austrian States system. You can even start in the system without speaking anything other than the most basic German but with a qualification recognised by your national awarding body. Most of the reputable ski schools like you to at least attend an Anwärter course so that you have some idea of the Austrian teaching progression. As this is a slightly higher standard than BASI L1 is is well worth it, especially as it costs considerably less and entitles you to work in the Alps not just in a Fridge or on dry slope. In one province you can actually take the exams for Anwärter in English.
However, once you start to progress up through the system you need fairly high level language skills to cope with both the theoretical content and the practical, including the teaching. You cannot cherry-pick just English-speaking clients, not for the exams, nor in the ski schools.
Have you taught in Austria or are you just repeating what you have heard?
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I should perhaps apologise here Sue, but I had assumed everyone would read the post from the beginning. The Austrians have just been given 2 months to change their practices regarding foreign instructors being able to work independently and or not having to have more qualifications than the locals. If you read from the start of page 1 you will see that though my comments are light hearted they are accurate. Sorry.
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I would actually say that the EMS is more important than the ET. Level 3 course is relatively limited and level 3s are limited to marked routes. I actually thought that the grandfather rights were subject to EMS according to SB who said on FB that he consequently did the course so not clear why it is not on his licence. All before my time to be honest so I bow to your knowledge.
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Yes EMS very important 100% agree. The Eurotest is there to show competition experience and ability. Since under French law only qualified instructors and above are allowed to train racers it is a technical test. Historical but in French practicaland legal terms still valid. Should European law respect this?
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Saint, I have read from the beginning. I also speak both French and German fluently and have taught in both systems. A ski school owner who cannot communicate with the local authorities in the local language is hardly an asset to those communities are they? Compliance with local laws requires an understanding of them not simply someone's interpretation of what they think it means.
If you want to operate your own school, then get the necessary language qualifications, it's what the locals have to do. Anyone with the Staatliche Geprüfte Schi- und Snowboardlehrer qualification (the other discipline does not need to be as high as your main one) is entitled to set up their own school. But if the aspirant does not speak the local language you will be in big difficulties dealing with the local regulators of any commercial operation. Just ask those here who operate businesses in Austria as to the pitfalls of getting it wrong. Ideally a ski school owner will not only have the highest qualifications they will be fluent in at least one other European language and also have completed an apprenticeship such as as a Einzelhandelkaufmann/frau (small business operator) or Industriekaufmann/frau (business operator). These apprenticeships train people to both work in and run small to medium-sized businesses.
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About the language I absolutely agree you are 100% right. Apart from anything else it's rude! I read your point of view coming from the fact that people moving into Austria should qualify locally. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Saint wrote: |
| The Eurotest is there to show competition experience and ability. Since under French law only qualified instructors and above are allowed to train racers it is a technical test. |
Not really. It is a technical test but has nothing to do with wanting race coaches.
France also has a training pathway for volunteer instructors, same as the UK, the top level of which is "National Trainer" a race coach qualification. There are plenty of club coaches in France who are clearly not at ISTD standard.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Sorry not for racing I cannot quote the Code du Sport but forget it, the Amateur side does not even touch it. On this bit I know my subject. The club coaches are for recreational club members above beginner level. The competition side is for the pros. Point of law.
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Could not agree more that it is vital to learn the language if you want to integrate and be accepted. In addition to the safety and practical considerations, if you can't speak the language, you can't understand the culture and you really are not in a position to cast judgement. It is a question of respect and understanding which is sometimes missing from the debate.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I have seen this and thank you for the post (I needed the reference), have you seen the amount of training they get? Or the time they spend doing it?
This is for unpaid amateurs working with recreational skiers who are members of recreational ski clubs. This is not what you think. It is lovely and the people are nice but not professional level at all. I know it seems fantastic but not the same thing. if we had personal email here I could explain the difference but really not the same thing all.
Real competition training with real ski clubs qualified only. Bedtime sorry.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
it is vital to learn the language if you want to integrate and be accepted
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this seems so basic that it's astonishing anybody would question it. I'd be jolly irritated if I went to do, say, a sailing course in Britain and found the instructor could only speak English as well as I can speak French (about B2).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Samerberg Sue, I fully agree aand also recommend that it is a good idea for someone from other systems to do the Anwärter if they are going to work in Austria. It is not very onerous. Its good to learn from other systems and it also requires some very basic language learning. It really should not be necessary to translate basic safety instructions and directions for ISIA or ISTD qualified instructors. I would also agree in principle that it is a good idea to do a local business qualification. In practice it is unlikely that people will do this and it it is not a requirement according to the EU statement. An alternative is to go into partnership with a local. I understand in practice in Switzerland people get round the local regulatory reuirements by paying a fee to a locally qualified instructor who takes care of the admin requirements. I'm all for the principle of mutual recognition of equivalent professional qualifications but there should also an element of respect and understanding for the local culture. I ssupect the kingdom of Surrey would be up in arms if the French and Austrians came over to the UK takings jobs without speaking English and being required to have lower qualifications to work than those required by natives.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
I understand in practice in Switzerland people get round the local regulatory reuirements by paying a fee to a locally qualified instructor who takes care of the admin requirements.
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that loophole has been closed in practice as lots were just paying off Patentes who didn't teach. Places like Verbier have a clocking in system to ensure that the Patente holder is on the hill working
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I ssupect the kingdom of Surrey would be up in arms if the French and Austrians came over to the UK takings jobs without speaking English and being required to have lower qualifications to work than those required by natives.
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My mate Gary the plumber would have a lively debate on Polish and Romanian immigrants with dubious qualifications taking all the site jobs in London
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skimottaret, I think you are right that the Swiss are tightening the rules up but I suspect that they are still some examples where there is still a certain amount of "pragmistism" with the rules. I thought there were also rules on the ratio of Swiss Patente to non-Swiss patentes for ski schools
I may be just a touch mischevious. The whole EU market is still evolving given the complexities of different regulations, cultures and languages. My experience is having equivalent qualifications and learning the local language is critical to breaking down those barriers on the ground.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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TTT, There are rules for the ratio of Patente to lower level instructors but I don't work in CH so can't comment. I personally really like the Swiss system as a solution, it gives value to the top level certs while allowing limited working hours for lower levels or those in training to become top certs. I have heard that this type of scheme may be presented to the EU as a compromise instead of battling to obtain Training Centre status. Definitely a lot of pragmatism and local interpretation goes on in CH, Italy, Austria etc... Don't disagree with you on staying on the side of the locals and developing relationship rather than battling in the courts but having a clear fair pan EU recognition system is long overdue rather than forcing foreigners to fit into local training and licensing systems. The battle was won for ISTD's over 10 years ago. We now need to extend the MoU agreement to encompass multi tier systems, those with remunerated trainees, regulated professions etc. I have my own personal opinion which I outlined on the previous page but I understand that BASI will be canvassing opinion to develop a proposal in the coming weeks. The recent SQF rating of BASI's multi discipline, multi tier licensing system could be a way to achieve this and from reading some of the FB threads by SB's team the French have already done a similar thing with their qualifications and an easy solution would be to have all nations submit their awards to the EQF body and then determine the working rights dependent on level of qualifications which could include the ET and EMS at the top.
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skimottaret, That is my perception of Switzerland as well. There is a reason though that so many BASI instructors end up in France ultimately so as I have said before the system does function on a pan - European level but is less than ideal and should be consistent throughout. I do see the MoU for top certs as the starting point with the system rolling down the levels over time with ISIA's getting greater access to be able to work in ski schools in France as the next step. Given the different systems and local interests it will take time though. I just see greater intergration as opposed to confrontation as the most effective way forward. It's the old management exercise game. if you push then the other side will push back. Empathise with the other side'a issues and you are more likely to be able to pull them along in your desired direction.
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TTT, while agreeing with that as a general precept, in the particular case of SB, it's a bit harsh when a court says in 2008 that what you are doing is OK (followed by 5 years of peace and even cooperation with ESF) then, in 2013 and 2014, exactly the same business model is suddenly not OK. That indicates something has changed in the external environment, and not for the better in the manner you describe (of opening up further opportunities). Understanding, and avoidance of confrontation, cuts both ways.
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laundryman, as ever though that is not the whole story though is it as I suspect you know better than me. As saint kindly pointed out long before I ever heard of SB the other court case related to a different charge. Furthermore I understand that there has been a number of long running issues. As I understand it SB has never been awarded his Carte Pro so there always been a consistent problem with SB as far as the French Authorites are concerned. At some point there needs to be a recognition that one person has a problem where 350 other don't so why is SB the only one who has a problem and the others don't? That to me suggests there is an issue with the individual that they need to reseolve rather than the system.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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TTT, everything about SB's business model came up in court in 2008, and all documentation (such as it may have been) examined, whatever the specifics of the charges. Why is there suddenly a problem in 2013? (I don't expect you to have a definitive answer, obviously). In Simon's specific case, I think we know that Simon had an ISTD card with MoU stamp in 2013, but the authorities claim not to have received his declaration (currently under appeal, invoking new evidence that was presented just too late for the original hearing). This year, BASI did not put an MoU stamp on Simon's ISTD card, for reasons best known to themselves. Too right, there are issues to be resolved.
The point I was making in the previous post was that Simon didn't do the confronting - he carried on as before, following 5 years of no apparent issue, and was confronted in 2013 and again 2014.
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laundryman, as I just wrote again it is not a sudden problem. There has always been a problem. Unless you know better SB has never been issued with a Carte Pro so has never had the documentation required to work in France. I understand per SB that he has never been given grandfather rights, that according to SB he does not have the ET and per the license that he posted on FB that he does not have a valid EMS so the error from BASI was to give SB his MoU last year which they have corrected this year. SB needs to sort out his grandfather rights e.g. if he can prove he had equivalent qualifications such as he can prove he passed the old CAPA or he needs to pass the ET or not work in France. He is the one person who has a problem which no one else has and he needs to take some self-responsibility rather than blaming everyone else. None of the others have this problem with BASI or the French. If you watch the SB'S video with UKIP and the BASI AGM then I think it starts to become apparent why he is the one perosn who has a problem that no one else has. I agree with you that he has issues that he needs to resolve.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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TTT, how could he have an ITSD without grandfather rights, not having taken an ET?
Why was he left in peace for several years by the French authorities after they lost a court case when everything about his business model and the qualifications of his staff was disclosed? Who did he confront in that time? What has changed?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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laundryman, I honestly as I've said before don't know the answer to the grandfather rights question. Its long before my time and I've not see a good explanation. As far as the French are concerned SB is a "persistent" offender and they have also had a number of successful prosecutions including the last one so to quote one case with a different charge is not the whole story. SB not having the required Carte Pro has not changed. What changed is that the French decided to take action about not complying with this requirement. As far as the French are concerned he does not have grandfather rights and is required to take the ET. Its level 4 plus ET plus EMS unless you have grandfather rights. SB himself has indicated that he does not have grandfather rights for some reason that it not clear but believes that he should have. I've seen it suggested that the issue was that SB refused to accept his grandfather rights. I think he should have sat down with the BASI and the French Authorities long ago to sort out his position with respect to grandfather rights and Carte Pro rather than enter into public disputes which makes his position more difficult. Meanwhile he needs to make sure that he complies with the Swiss regulations.
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TTT, he has sat down with BASI, he was granted grandfather rights years ago following an initial admin cock-up. Something has changed in the external environment - I would suggest both within the BASI hierarchy, which has obviously been less than helpful recently, and at the French political level (which probably goes beyond ski instruction).
I hope and imagine he will comply with Swiss regulations, as he will do with French regulations as those have been interpreted in Bonneville. The corollary of that is that he will be bringing less than half the numbers to Megève as previously. It's hard to see who will benefit from that, other than businesses in Crans-Montana.
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You know it makes sense.
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laundryman,. I don't think anything has changed in the French position regarding SB in the sense of not granting a Carte Pro other than that the French have decided to take action for whatever reason. What we know has changed in the external environment is the new directive and the forthcoming implementation of the MoU so maybe this is the reason as the French and BASI lawyer's believe this clarifies and confirms their position. I know that the case was under the old directive but legal practice is that judge's will look at the latest law in order to interpret previous law. Hopefully the publication of the judgement will provide a bit more clarity for all concerned.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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TTT, that could be - and would throw the spotlight on BASI's decision not to grant Simon the MoU stamp this year, I think. But you're right, this is speculation until we see the judgement.
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Poster: A snowHead
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On the Grandfather rights issue it is all murky and depends on who you talk to as to why some members didn't receive their grandfather ISTD all those years ago. Some older members say that it was purely an admin error in that some people had letters sent to UK addresses when working abroad, some didn't take it up at the time as it was viewed just as a way to work in France and didn't need to, some were lazy and some where refruzniks who felt they had a top cert so why should they, or, some who's face didn't fit were left off the list. It wasn't just Simon in that list but 22 people who for whatever reason had the right to obtain a "grandfather" ISTD. BASI this year went back to the French to regularise this and all 22 were painstakingly tracked down and given the option to obtain their ISTD and in turn their Carte Pro. Only a handful have done this, some retired, some don't work in France etc... Not sure about what Simons situation is but the key thing is that it is personal to him and of very little consequence to members from past that era. Being given an MoU stamp last season but not this season IS of consequence to all ISTD's and that needs a clear statement by BASI
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skimottaret, It is indeed murky. Out of a strange curiosity I did a search for grandfather rights and a technical BASI source stated they were entitled if you previously had the highest level qualification (which is not being disputed) but still had to do the EMS/ES. SB said he did the EMS but it specifically shows on the license he posted that he does not have the EMS. I find with the SB camp whilst what they say is not wrong per se it is not the whole story so maybe he did it but did not pass which would explain why he is not entitled to the MoU. However, the statement from the French embassy and the reported judge indicates that they believe he needs the ET. The comments I've seen on grandfather rights make no mention of the old speed/bump test. I know BASI trainers did it and I don't suppose they did it just for the fun of it so maybe this is the reason he does not have the MoU. SB also posted a letter saying that he didn't have grandfather rights because he was employing lower levels but should have had them so maybe this is the issue. I agree though with respect to full certs that this is a very specific SB issue.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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TTT my understanding is that they had to do the Mountain Safety module to qualify and at the time there was only one version, the MS and now the requirement is the newer EMS. Cant recall details but I think you were exempt for the old Capa if over 35 and had a Grade 1 at the time when the ET was introduced. BASI was a mess back then apparently so who knows...
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From what i can deduce of the current 350ish ISTD's around 40 Grade 1's got ET exemption, 22 got ET passes at the disputed Garmisch gift test and 40-45 snowboard guys granted ISTD's without any tests so over 1/4 of all BASI ISTD's got a deal of some description over the past 14 years, Simon isn't so alone in having odd circumstances...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| ...22 got ET passes at the disputed Garmisch gift test ... |
Did that agreement co-incide with ISIA L3s losing our right to work as Stagieres in France? In around 2006 I was offered work by the ESF in Courchevel when they saw I had the stamp (I'd shown up on holiday to run a few gates with them) but of course that would no longer be possible.
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skimottaret, thanks for background. The age rule explains to me why some did/didn't do the Capa. Agree that there were differrent circumstances. It just appears everyone else managed to sort out their position who wanted to apart from SB for some reason so I still suspect the court case is not an issue for those all ready with their Carte Pro and in that sense for fully qualifieds the verdict is very SB specific.
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Jeez, it's complicated stuff teaching folks to ski?
IMHO all just smoke and mirrors to preserve the status quo for the majority of the big ski schools federation, organisations or whatever. The language point is the only clear and genuinely indisputable one.
IME the prime objective for many of these organisations is not to actually teach people to ski but rather to just improve them a little on each trip, just enough to make them feel they've progressed and therefore their lessons were worthwhile but not enough to make them feel confident that they won't need six days of lessons next year, which, of course, would be very bad for business.
Before I'm shot down in flames there will be many honourable exceptions to this, probably including the ones who are being dragged through courts.
I'm not a great skier but I can get around safely and reasonably competently (most of the time) I always have at least one refresher lesson on a one to one basis each season but I'm also quite a social person and am happy to ski around for a few days in a group of similar ability being led by someone who knows the area well. Those who seek to ban and restrict are motivated solely by the fact that they would rather I was paying their ski school for the privilege and also to make sure that no one else can do so to compete with them 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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^ Under the original grandfather rights / ET agreement (circa 2001) Simon Butler would have been able to legally work in France.
However he would not be allowed the employ other lower level instructors as he had done for the 10 years previously.
Perhaps this is why he didn't formally accept them ?
... Seems to be the root of the dispute ?
RE : Switzerland.
Each ski school can employ 5 lower levels instructors for every Patente they also employ full-time.
Even with ISTD you still need to convert to the local system to be awarded a Patente - its a 2 technical day course in French or German.
So the same pyramid scheme exists (it is just more transparent) and those with Patente status are very valuable to ski schools.
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FAQ
