kitenski, An ex GBR team skier and yeah over the L4 std It was proper steep defo high thirty degree and maybe +40 juddery, slick, hardpack coming down.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
skimottaret, the bit about physical input and carving?
Well I don't know, but carving just appears to be less energetic - the skis doing some of the work for you, the short turns seem more energetic. Perhaps it's just because the people that do it well make it look effortless, but short turns never look effortless even in those Level 11 and 12 videos.
N.B. Regarding goals, I'd also settle for nice short turns on an nice innocuous blue blue piste at the moment, I'm under no apprehension that I could manage to do them on a steeper slope as in the video, but I'd be pleased to be able to run them on an indoor slope with nice form by COP this summer..
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
you don't see many top level ski racers with small quads and there is a reason for that, whilst physical/skeletal bracing helps there is still a big part of skiing at a high level that requires physical attributes, either strength or fitness based.
I saw my kids with their instructor about to ski some gates and skied over to watch them. When I set off again I skied parallel with the course and past the instructor at the bottom. I saw him do a double take when I skied past him (carving short turns on a pretty firm red run). The next day when I was dropping the kids off he said he'd seen me skiing the day before and said something flattering. Then said "you can really carve, I'm too old for carving these days". I'd say he is late 50s and fit. I'm absolutely sure he could carve short turns if he wanted too but it does make the point - he sees them as physically demanding
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Megamum wrote:
Well I don't know, but carving just appears to be less energetic - the skis doing some of the work for you, the short turns seem more energetic.
Not really. Very high speeds equals very high forces (unless you are skiing straight down the fall line, but where's the fun in that?), so there is high physical demand. At the end of a pitch of long radius turns I'm definitely struggling for breath and my legs and core muscles know they have been working hard.
you don't see many top level ski racers with small quads and there is a reason for that, whilst physical/skeletal bracing helps there is still a big part of skiing at a high level that requires physical attributes, either strength or fitness based.
My calfs n ankles have completely mutated since I started skiing. It's like looking at someone else's legs!! And I'm a lightweight compared to Pro skiers.
Carving or skidding it's all skiing. So effort = reward regardless
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
oi FC - get back to the skiing.
After all it is free
After all it is free
and long radius turns.....(which is my weak point and I wished I'd had more time on the resit to further improve them....)
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
kitenski, please can you explain the term 'lateral separation' in a way that I will understand. I might not ski well enough for it to concern me yet, but I'd just like to know what it refers to.
You did some of those turns over fairly variable snow, it can't be easy to maintain such a smooth turn when the snow is not!!
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Megamum, stand straight (knees slightly bent). Push your hip sideways with 1 hand. Your body shape is it, basically (see last frame in above vid).
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Thanks for the second vid, I think longs are my weakness as well. Any tips? What changed between you still not driving your skis enough in January and passing L2 in (?) March?
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
ALQ, Ah, the bit where the top of your body is at a different angle to the slope (usually away from the slope?) than your knees (which are into the slope?)?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
lynseyf, lots of work on a smooth transition was step 1 I had bad habits around a pivot at the start and standing up, so had to stop both of those.
Step 2 for me was to drive the skis more. I reckon the vid from Jan may still be at the level but its also a note to myself about wanting to drive the skis more.
Once the skis are on the new edge then I say a trigger word like "Boom" and really pressure the outside ski, the amount of pressure then changes the radii of the turn.
Megamum, yes body is vertical and legs swing underneath from side to side. I am sure there is a good diagram on snowheads somewhere...will try and dig it out!
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Megamum, that's angulation - which Inside Out are working on in May, I noted!
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
kitenski, thanks, I find it difficult to not steer the skis at all, was trying to work on that on my last holiday.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
lynseyf, is it the control freaks in us that makes it difficult to not interfere in the carving process? Although I'm only just starting with it I also think that I have a tendency to interfere with the free running of the skis on their natural arc and start to put pressure on them. In my Flachau videos there are some shots of me making fairly long turns across some green territory towards the lift, but even then I don't think I was carving (and it was the sort of place I could have been), it was as though I always wanted to pressure and control the shape of the turn. I think it's a very valid observation that to carve properly you must have to some extent leave the skis alone to do their own thing I hadn't thought of it quite like that, but it is something that I might find it difficult to do, i.e. to let go of the control aspect and let the skis run themselves without interference in their arc. However, realisation that it might be important is worth bearing in mind when I next try.
pam w, OK, angulation I understand, then it's not this lateral separation that was in the video - so is lateral separation what you can see clearly in the short turns - when the body stays central and legs move under it - like in that still picture above, i.e. what I am try to achieve with the short turns at the moment..
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Megamum, you see lateral separation in my long turns....
For short turns you need more rotary separation where the upper body points down the hill and the hips rotate underneath. When you get more performing short grippy turns then you need lateral separation as well.
If we just angulated we wouldn't be able to get the pressure on to the outside ski.
skimottaret, is that 3rd video really 'icy' at all ?
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Tim Heeney, as I said above maybe +40 juddery, slick, hardpack coming down. not sure your point , very skiable just trying to put the video into context
After all it is free
After all it is free
skimottaret, Just surprised the video title said 'icy' thats all. Sorry, i hadn't read where you qualified it. Cheers,
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
ALQ wrote:
Megamum wrote:
.. i.e. to let go of the control aspect and let the skis run themselves without interference in their arc...
Start with gradually shifting just your ankles side to side. You can pick-up good speed even on a green run.
Megamum as ALQ states you don't have to to learn on anything steep. Pick a green which is long and wide and with a bit of a gradient though as the speed helps. Let the skis go straight and pick up some speed before you roll onto an edge and just follow the skis. If you try and turn you will rotate and skid.
A good way to see what is happening is to get a video of yourself trying to carve, look for the spray at the start of the turn which is likely to be from a skid (rotation), look back to see if you have two clean lines all the way round the arc of the turn.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Did anyone really answer Megamum's question about what lateral seperation is? I know ALQ tried but it seemed a little cryptic to me. Frankly I'm not sure that I really know but i THINK it is the following:
When you carve a turn with significant edge angle you can think of each foot and your hips as moving in concentric circles (outer foot in the biggest circle, then inner foot, then hip). The gap between these circles is lateral seperation.
When you are using "hip angulation" - strong, extended outside leg with hip "dropped into the turn" - you see the seperation most clearly. Typically the higher the edge angle the lower and further inside the hip moves and the lateral seperation between the feet, and between the feet and the hip, increases.
Have I got this right?
In my view, being able to drop the hip, show lateral seperation and achieve high edge angles is the single clearest mark that you are really an advanced skier.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
jedster,
Quote:
Did anyone really answer Megamum's question about what lateral seperation is?
^^^Thank you , sometimes I feel that I am just being thick if I keep complaining that I still don't get it. So it's to do with the distance between the feet on an acutely angled carve?
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
jedster wrote:
When you carve a turn with significant edge angle you can think of each foot and your hips as moving in concentric circles (outer foot in the biggest circle, then inner foot, then hip). The gap between these circles is lateral seperation.
I guess that's technically correct, but it sounds like a very complex way to describe it. Put simply, lateral separation is when the legs are at a different angle to the body, and it is the result of being more balanced on the outside ski than the inside ski when the forces in the turn are very high. Trying to create an significantly angulated position when the forces being generated are relatively low is a recipe for distortion and ineffective body management.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Megamum wrote:
So it's to do with the distance between the feet on an acutely angled carve?
No. It is the difference in angle of the legs compared to the body. Look at the photo above: legs are at a steeper angle than the body. This means the centre of mass is moved closer to the outside ski than it would be if the body was at the same angle as the legs.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
rob@rar, I might be getting too worried about terminology, but I always thought lateral seperation was as Megamum posted - the gaps between the feet and to a lesser extent between the knees.
I'd have thought a seperation between upper and lower body would be messy
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Mosha Marc wrote:
rob@rar, I might be getting too worried about terminology, but I always thought lateral seperation was as Megamum posted - the gaps between the feet and to a lesser extent between the knees.
No, that would be described as "stance width".
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I'd agree with rob@rar. The "separation" is not a physical distance between two things, but a separation in the movement of two parts of the body. I.e. the legs are moving and the upper body is not.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
It must be a BASI thing then, what with lateral being a posh word for sideways.
Other teaching folk do use it to mean stance width.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Mosha Marc wrote:
It must be a BASI thing then, what with lateral being a posh word for sideways.
It distinguishes from rotary separation, which I guess is a posh way of talking about twisting
Mosha Marc wrote:
Other teaching folk do use it to mean stance width.
Sounds like they are trying to describe stance width in a posh way. If an instructor talked to me about lateral separation and meant how far apart my legs are, I'd find another instructor.
totally agree that the two things come at the same time but there is no way that a difference in angle between body and leg can be called "lateral seperation" - what is the lateral bit? What is the seperation? Total distortion of the English language! The origin must be the seperation (distance) in the lateral (horizontal) plane between the ski edge and the centre of mass - the contrast is between standing centred over the skis in a neutral position and getting to a marked, hip angulated position. Now obviously achieving that requires the angle between body and legs you talk of but that cant be the defintion surely!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
oh and I think it's different from stance width - stance width is how you set up in a neutral position, lateral seperation comes about as a function of dropping the hip and angulating at a reasonably high angle.
jedster, it might well be a distortion of the meaning of those words as used in other contexts, but it's hardly unusual that language is misappropriated for "technical shorthand". It happens constantly. Nevertheless, that's what lateral separation means in a skiing context. I didn't make it up, although it has always made perfect sense to me.
BTW, it's not a phrase I would use with clients unless I was certain we shared the same understanding. For those who I have taught for a long time it's useful way of describing in two words what it has taken half a thread and a couple of photos to (not quite) describe a fairly simple thing...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
kieranm,
Quote:
The "separation" is not a physical distance between two things, but a separation in the movement of two parts of the body. I.e. the legs are moving and the upper body is not.
This 'separation' I comprehend - it is what I am working towards achieving, when my upper body will remain and the legs will work side to side - as demonstrated in the earlier short turns video. Is this just a shortened way of saying 'lateral separation'? It seems to be a form of 'angulation' as well
I also comprehend the two circles argument, with the legs at different angles and feet at different distances apart - though I think that one is interdependent on the other to some extents - physically I think it would have to be.
FWIW I also comprehend knees into the mountain and body away - this is also angulation of some form.
All these terms are confusing
After all it is free
After all it is free
Megamum wrote:
All these terms are confusing
So perhaps try not to think about them, and just focus on what you are trying to achieve? Outcomes, not inputs.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
BASI and a lot of instructor associations use the terms "Lateral" and "Rotational" separation because if you use language like "angulation" and "twisting" clients may put themselves into awkward body positions at risk of injury. Have you ever heard an instructor say "be like a banana"? Spines arent meant to be bend sideways while loaded.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
rob@rar, don't worry those two are separate in my mind - it's just part of an on-going campaign for clear English and being able to understand what people are writing. Such understanding may or may not contribute to my own skiing, its just more interesting day to day to be able to understand what I read. FWIW I liked the concept of the two skis being on different sized circles.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
It was proper steep defo high thirty degree and maybe +40 juddery, slick, hardpack coming down.
