There are multiple people asking questions here, and I've no idea if they all exhibit the same issues or not.
You can definitely get away with "dodgy" technique (sideslipping, cranking your skis around etc) on piste, but those things will not get you far in deep powder.
Getting an expert to watch you (eg taking a lesson) sounds like the best approach, or post videos. Most beginners fall over on the turns, I can't I'm afraid remember why. You can ride "in the back seat" if you have the leg muscles for it - being there is no excuse for failure to turn.
I would make sure you're not using slalom skis, Macho idiots may still tide powder with gear like that, but sensible people don't.
If you're riding at a resort you should be able to feel the base (the piste, or skier pisted stuff) under your feet most of the time. You'll still get some "slower response" to your input, but the same good basic technique will work even when you can't see your feet (which you are of course not looking at).
It's actually easier to ride (and to fall) in steep stuff.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
The Flying Gooseberry wrote:
Mike Pow,
Quote:
Hope that helps.
Not sure. I think what you're saying is that, once you've initiated your turn (by standing tall and flattening the skis?) you let the skis do the rest (without any pressure or edging or pivoting? Really??) and, when they've taken you sufficiently uphill to feel comfortable, you do the same again.
I think I might be missing something...
You missed this bit above
Quote:
...you can choose to use that acceleration in combination with pivotting and edging your skis to accelerate through the turn and then back uphill where you will decelerate.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Mike Pow, I didn't exactly miss it, it just seemed to conflict with this:
Quote:
You can choose to manage momentum by purely physical means or choose to let the arc of the turn speed you up and slow you down.
Think of how a yo yo goes down, 'hits bottom' and then springs back up.
In powder, where the platform under your feet is constantly forming the latter is the more successful of the two options.
By physical means I meant the aggressive hockey stop skid, pushing the tails out, uphill leg leading the turn, banking on the inside with balance up the hill, dowhill handing waving in the air way above the head way of turning so favoured by so many in the powder.
The Flying Gooseberry, Think more gentle movements. Make every movement a smooth increase or decrease in angle, pressure etc. Like a glider soaring, with a little slow motion thrown in Generally I've found that making sudden changes in deep snow lead to that same snow taking on the imprint of my face. As you get more experienced and the balance comes more naturally you can of course experiment with bounce turns, unweighting on terrain etc.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I've only ever had a few brief introductions to powder so I'm not very good at it. However one thing I have noticed is that my previous skis (heavy and very piste-focussed) made it really difficult, I just seemed to sink. Same went for slush too with the added disadvantage that I'd often stop dead and get stuck due to the sticky nature of slush. The skis I rented last season (bit more all-mountainish and lighter) combined with lots of fresh powdery snow on piste taught me a lot. I didn't sink anywhere near as much and I could turn, after a bit of practice I could even make nice S-turns in fresh snow, a revelation!
So my point is you might find the wrong type of skis are hindering your progress with soft snow, that was certainly true for me. I'm still inexperienced with soft snow but at least now with better skis I can see the potential…
After all it is free
After all it is free
Wow thank you everyone.
Mike, that did indeed make sense, heading down the fall line, i believe after reading that i try to ski powder the same way i ski the piste... using all of it from side to side ect.
In effect skiing off piste you have to ski more aggressively? having the ski's down the fall line a lot more than you would on the piste?
Waynos, this was mentioned to me to try when in Tignes over Christmas, i never did it but that was more a knee confidence issue more than anything else tbh.
Weeks per year skiing is roughly 2, we try to ski 2x 1 weeks per year in the funds allow of course.... If that fails is is defiantly 1 weeks skiing.
Thank you all.
It got a tad frustrating in Tignes as i could ski everything, 2nd last day we decided to ski Golf the black run that runs to the road, as soon as i saw the deep powder i knew this was going to be a long one for that reason.
Looking at booking in Feb this year for our next trip (if the funds allow) so will give this a try failing that a tripp to the snow dome will be had.
Thank you all
Leigh
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leeboy wrote:
Wow thank you everyone.
Mike, that did indeed make sense, heading down the fall line, i believe after reading that i try to ski powder the same way i ski the piste... using all of it from side to side ect.
In effect skiing off piste you have to ski more aggressively? having the ski's down the fall line a lot more than you would on the piste?
Leigh
Yes and no unfortunately.
Yes in that there's no different way you need to learn to ski powder. The mechanics are the same, the difference is patience, subtlety and a lightness on the snow - advanced pressure control.
A big NO to skiing more aggressively IMHO.
If you can visualise that both your skis heading straight downhill in the fall line is 12 o'clock on a clockface, on a typical green run you may need to deviate from that 12 o'clock position only as far as 10 o'clock to the left and 2 o'clock to the right to complete the turn.
On a typical red run you may need to deviate from that 12 o'clock position as far as 9 o'clock to the left and 3 o'clock to the right to complete the turn.
On a typical black run you may need to deviate from that 12 o'clock position as far as 8 o'clock to the left and 4 o'clock to the right to complete the turn. Or further.
When skiing powder the skis can / need to travel in the fall line longer for two reasons:
1. The snow underneath your skis is unconsolidated. You need the skis to sink into the snow and compact it thereby making a platform on which you can pivot and edge your skis to make a turn.
2. The action of sinking into the snow will create resistance and act as a braking mechanism. Depending on the depth and density of the snow and the dimensions of the skis you are on will determine how far you sink in the snow and how much resistance is felt.
Typically the deeper the snow the greater the resistance which in turn means you need to deviate less from the 12 o'clock fall line position to complete the turn.
When I teach powder skiing I emphasise patience, lightness and relaxation whilst the skis are in the fall line and creating the platform.
Once the platform is created the skier can choose to do slow, progressive pivotting and edging to initiate and complete a wide radius turn,
or can choose to do faster progressive pivotting and edging to initiate and complete a short radius turn.
Both of these options are non-aggressive with the skis working with the snow and the pitch of the slope.
Hope that clarifies it.
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I had to ride with some people the other day who were, it turned out, not the "powder experts" they claimed to be. They may have been good on piste, but in powder they weren't. Some of what I saw chimed with this..
.. if people are having trouble, then they do tend to revert to traversing a lot. If you're trying to ride deep powder and you traverse... well most times you probably won't have enough speed at the end of your traverse to make a turn, or at least not easily. Those guys need to point the skis down the hill and let them run.... which I think is what he's saying here. It's not "aggressive" though, or doesn't have to be - you don't need to bang on the skis or anything to make them turn. It's just about making maybe round turns down the fall line, so you're always turning one way or the other.
I'm not sure what the best way to get into it is. I vaguely remember getting it myself, but not well enough to know. You do have to let the skis run. Perhaps it's that it doesn't feel "in control" in the same way as edging on piste feels, but you are still in control. You will learn to turn at very slow speeds, but to start with, more speed makes things easier.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Mike,
thought you're last post was a very good description. I'd second the issue of patience - I used to tell friends to just wait that little bit longer than you think you need to before you initiate the next turn. This was/is much more important on skinnier skis of course. And you are right that it is not about aggression in the sense of big movements/weight shifts but there is a need to be a little confident in pointing down the fall line to overcome drag.
Going back to the earlier part of this thread, I'm a bit puzzled by the issue of "standing tall". I find that when I'm skiing powder well (especially in trees or around rocks, terrain features etc) my default position is actually quite low. It is being low that gives you the coiled spring potential to stand up, flatten the skis and initiate a turn IN AN INSTANT WHENEVER YOU WANT. This seems to me to be key to off-piste skiing when you want to flow with the terrain. Of course in a big open bowl with little in the way of terrain features this may be less important. What am I missing?
Cheers,
J
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
jedster, if you are standing very low then you have a big range of movement available when you want to extend. You might not need to use it on every turn you make, but that's a good thing to have available to you. However, the downside of being in a very flexed position is that you can't get much lower. So, if you're low and you hit some terrain where are you going to go...? What happens if you want/need to begin the next turn by retracting your feet underneath you to release the pressure that has built up at the end of the turn...? From an biomechanical efficiency point of view, would prefer to stand up all day in a crouched position or reasonably tall...?
I like my 'neutral' position to be somewhere in the middle of my range of movement, allowing me to move more easily up, down or sideways.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
jedster wrote:
Mike,
thought you're last post was a very good description. I'd second the issue of patience - I used to tell friends to just wait that little bit longer than you think you need to before you initiate the next turn. This was/is much more important on skinnier skis of course. And you are right that it is not about aggression in the sense of big movements/weight shifts but there is a need to be a little confident in pointing down the fall line to overcome drag.
Going back to the earlier part of this thread, I'm a bit puzzled by the issue of "standing tall". I find that when I'm skiing powder well (especially in trees or around rocks, terrain features etc) my default position is actually quite low. It is being low that gives you the coiled spring potential to stand up, flatten the skis and initiate a turn IN AN INSTANT WHENEVER YOU WANT. This seems to me to be key to off-piste skiing when you want to flow with the terrain. Of course in a big open bowl with little in the way of terrain features this may be less important. What am I missing?
Cheers,
J
For me,
standing tall = lighter on the skis = being relaxed = more manoeuvrable = greater range of absorbtion when needed = less tiring
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I think rob has it for me - it's about balance, having to room to move in either direction. That's why I didn't like the "stand tall" description - it suggest limited room to extend. Clearly you need room to flex too. I don't see that standing tall = lighter on skis AT ALL. IMO "lightness" in this sense comes from having "soft knees" rather than "standing tall". And to repeat Rob - manoeuvrability comes from the ability to move in any direction which comes from being mid-range.
In terms of comfort, I do take the point although the reality of a skiing day is that we find rather a small part of it (in elapsed time) actually in our skiing stance! The other thing speaking personally is that my distinctly snug boots get pretty uncomfortable if I'm not standing with a fair amount of knee and ankle flex!
But the more I think about this, the more I think that it is all somantics (not belittling it - words are important to find the right imagery that works for you). I think I probably have a natural tendancy to stand tall as a conservative measure against potential nasty surprises (i.e. to be able to absorb) so that I benefit from getting lower to give me more range of extension. Perhaps other people have the opposite issue (natural position is to be low so benefit from standing taller)?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
jedster wrote:
I think rob has it for me - it's about balance, having to room to move in either direction. That's why I didn't like the "stand tall" description - it suggest limited room to extend.
Obviously 'standing tall' does not mean legs locked out. I try to ski with the same leg length and bend at the knee as when I'm walking.
Quote:
I don't see that standing tall = lighter on skis AT ALL.
Physics will tell you otherwise.
Quote:
In terms of comfort, I do take the point although the reality of a skiing day is that we find rather a small part of it (in elapsed time) actually in our skiing stance! The other thing speaking personally is that my distinctly snug boots get pretty uncomfortable if I'm not standing with a fair amount of knee and ankle flex!
That's where we differ. I ski in a boot with a low flex index fore aft which has a cuff angle of 15 degrees.
It's very uncomfortable to ski with a fair amount of knee and ankle flex.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Perhaps it's important to state the obvious: you don't actually ski with a fixed stance, especially when skiing off-piste. It's not a great photo as the snow covers the legs some of the time so you can't see what's going on, but for me a comfortable stance height and a bit of movement can be seen in this montage:
How to ski powder is difficult to describe. To me it's like jumping down a big soft mattress set at an angle. You have to feel the rhythm of the snow/mattress, you can't rush it or force it. Push with both feet almost equally. Riding the tails will just burn out your thighs and increase your speed in snow. Build up a rhythm and commit to the turn, don't hold back and miss a beat. Keep your chin over the front of your binding without sticking your bum out. Push gradually into the snow with both feet, feel the pressure build up and use that pressure to bring yourself out of the snow for the next turn. Retract the feet slightly and set the skis ready for the next turn. Repeat
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I'm sure the customers in that video had the time of their lives at CMH, and if I had a spare CDN$10,000 lying around I'd do a week too.
However, learning to ski powder in that environment is very expensive and inefficient IMHO.
Most of the before and after footage showed people who were more confident and fitter at the end but the fundamental skills hadn't improved significantly over the week.
The lady providing most of the voiceover was kidding herself when she said she could ski anything now.
The best way to learn to ski powder is with an instructor within a resort environment taking skills learned on piste, in crud, and in bumps to the powder.
I'm sure the customers in that video had the time of their lives at CMH, and if I had a spare CDN$10,000 lying around I'd do a week too.
However, learning to ski powder in that environment is very expensive and inefficient IMHO.
Expensive yes, but if people have the money that's their choice. Why is it inefficient?
Mike Pow wrote:
Most of the before and after footage showed people who were more confident and fitter at the end but the fundamental skills hadn't improved significantly over the week.
The lady providing most of the voiceover was kidding herself when she said she could ski anything now.
She said she "could get down anything". OK they didn't go from powder learner to backflipping cliffs in a week (it isn't snowboarding ) but the turns were better linked and she was having much more fun.
Mike Pow wrote:
The best way to learn to ski powder is with an instructor within a resort environment taking skills learned on piste, in crud, and in bumps to the powder.
I disagree, some ski instructors don´t ski or teach much offpiste at all. Some instructors aren't motivated or can't get over what they are trying to say in English as it's not their native language. Best to use someone who specialises in offpiste training be it Warren Smith, CMH, Piste to Powder or Alloffpiste (both St Anton, Austria) or someone similar IMHO.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Mike,
"Physics will tell you otherwise. "
My @rse it will!
Stance has no bearing on lightness in the physics sense. How could it? Any lightness in a physics sense comes from movement temporarily partly unweighting the skis. I thought you wewre meaning lightness in a more metaphorical sense - the ability to absorb allows you to hit terrain with less impact. But it is the absorbtion motion that does that not a static stance.
On a different topic, heliskiing is an amazingly time EFFICIENT way of developing powder skills. It might even be good value if you price it on cost per powder turn! I was lucky enough to do four days at mica creek about 8 years ago. We skied 8000-10000m vertical per day and 90%+ of that was untracked. Think how many days of lift-served skiing in the alps you would have to do to get that number of powder turns in. It's a HUGE number.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 8-01-14 13:37; edited 1 time in total
After all it is free
After all it is free
DB wrote:
Why is it inefficient?
Because sometimes you need to spend some time developing the correct skills in a non-challenging environment. If you were learning to ski jump would you head straight to the nearest 90m hill and leap off it, or start on something a bit less challenging and then work your way up when you have developed some skills...?
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rob@rar, I should be charging royalties for that series of pics
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
kitenski,
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
rob@rar wrote:
DB wrote:
Why is it inefficient?
Because sometimes you need to spend some time developing the correct skills in a non-challenging environment. If you were learning to ski jump would you head straight to the nearest 90m hill and leap off it, or start on something a bit less challenging and then work your way up when you have developed some skills...?
Agree with most of that although it's not as if it was their first time on skis.
Did think it was efficient in the sense that people with little time and lots of money get maximum time in the powder with a week's heliskiing.
Yes too many want to ski powder before they can put down decent turns on piste. The same happens with some learner skiers trying to ski steeper terrain at speed. Getting down a run isn't the same as skiing it. Often undeveloped skiers spend a lot of money on fat skis, offpiste guides etc but fight with the deep snow all the time. If they improved their on-piste skills before - esp. in soft/variable onpiste conditions (soft moguls formed towards the end of the day) it would probably be cheaper and quicker/better in the long run.
Skiing powder is however a different feeling and at some time the skier has to decide to go with what skill set he/she has and take the plunge into powder.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
DB wrote:
Yes too many want to ski powder before they can put down decent turns on piste. The same happens with some learner skiers trying to ski steeper terrain at speed. Getting down a run isn't the same as skiing it. Often undeveloped skiers spend a lot of money on fat skis, offpiste guides etc but fight with the deep snow all the time. If they improved their on-piste skills before - esp. in soft/variable onpiste conditions (soft moguls formed towards the end of the day) it would probably be cheaper and quicker/better in the long run.
Skiing powder is however a different feeling and at some time the skier has to decide to go with what skill set he/she has and take the plunge into powder.
I agree with all of that, but from a teaching point of view it is often very useful to have access to some very non-threatening terrain/snow on which skiers can make significant changes to their skills base. It might well be that the heliski trip in that video did spend some time on firm snow but it wasn't featured.
Yes, at some point you have to throw yourself in to the deep snow and just get on with it, but if you are constantly flailing around and digging yourself out of the snow on every third turn it's probably best to address some of your weaknesses in conditions which are a little more benign.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
DB wrote:
Mike Pow wrote:
I'm sure the customers in that video had the time of their lives at CMH, and if I had a spare CDN$10,000 lying around I'd do a week too.
However, learning to ski powder in that environment is very expensive and inefficient IMHO.
Expensive yes, but if people have the money that's their choice. Why is it inefficient?
Mike Pow wrote:
Most of the before and after footage showed people who were more confident and fitter at the end but the fundamental skills hadn't improved significantly over the week.
The lady providing most of the voiceover was kidding herself when she said she could ski anything now.
She said she "could get down anything". OK they didn't go from powder learner to backflipping cliffs in a week (it isn't snowboarding ) but the turns were better linked and she was having much more fun.
Mike Pow wrote:
The best way to learn to ski powder is with an instructor within a resort environment taking skills learned on piste, in crud, and in bumps to the powder.
I disagree, some ski instructors don´t ski or teach much offpiste at all. Some instructors aren't motivated or can't get over what they are trying to say in English as it's not their native language. Best to use someone who specialises in offpiste training be it Warren Smith, CMH, Piste to Powder or Alloffpiste (both St Anton, Austria) or someone similar IMHO.
If you read back I wrote they most probably had the time of their lives.
And with the exception of CMH, my understanding is that the companies you mentioned use a combination of piste and off-piste terrain to develop the students' skills. Which is exactly what I recommended.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Mike Pow,
Yes CMH is probably better suited to people who can ski powder and want to improve rather than absolute offpiste beginners.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
jedster wrote:
Mike,
"Physics will tell you otherwise. "
My @rse it will!
Stance has no bearing on lightness in the physics sense. How could it? Any lightness in a physics sense comes from movement temporarily partly unweighting the skis. I thought you wewre meaning lightness in a more metaphorical sense - the ability to absorb allows you to hit terrain with less impact. But it is the absorbtion motion that does that not a static stance.
On a different topic, heliskiing is an amazingly time EFFICIENT way of developing powder skills. It might even be good value if you price it on cost per powder turn! I was lucky enough to do four days at mica creek about 8 years ago. We skied 8000-10000m vertical per day and 90%+ of that was untracked. Think how many days of lift-served skiing in the alps you would have to do to get that number of powder turns in. It's a HUGE number.
My very basic understanding of physics is that whilst the bodyweight of the skier doesn't change if they are standing tall on their skis or crouched low, the forces applied to the ski are greater when the skier is lower.
Happy to be corrected if that is incorrect.
If someone wanted to learn to ski powder / improve their powder skiing then the Alps would be way down on the list of my recommended destinations. Western Canada, the mountain states of the US and Japan are far better choices.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:
My very basic understanding of physics is that whilst the bodyweight of the skier doesn't change if they are standing tall on their skis or crouched low, the forces applied to the ski are greater when the skier is lower.
No reason why that should be the case. Of course people with a lower stance may be skiing more dynamically (higher edge angles, higher g turns, etc) but that would be a correlation not a causation.
Quote:
Western Canada, the mountain states of the US and Japan are far better choices.
Very true but even then in lift-served terrain a small fraction of the size of a heli concession you are very unlikely to manage 8-10000m of 95% untracked vertical a day. Don't get me wrong, for most of us a CMH style heli trip is a once in a lifetime opportunity at best but it's a great way of getting powder skiing dialled in to your muscle memory. Unlike the people in that vid I did know how to ski powder before I went though. Largely as a consequence of a season on 200cm slalom skis in Courchevel in a big snow year.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Mike Pow
Newton's Second Law of Motion states that:
Force = Mass * Acceleration
In other words, you can change the force applied to your skis by ACCELERATING your body up or down. This is not position, or indeed speed.
This highlights my view that Newton's laws should be one of BASI's fundamental elements and should be part of the course.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
altis, although Mike might be referring to moments. A longer lever exerts more force so having the CoM higher means that you can apply the same force with less movement.
Very interesting videos and discussion. I'm sure that on easiski's "On2Off" week, later this month, we will be spending plenty of time on the piste identifying and trying to correct the weaknesses in our skiing which will manifest themselves off piste (which will not necessarily, of course mean in the powder). That suits me well because it's much more efficient in terms of sheer energy and strength - falling and flailing around too much off piste is exhausting. I've had some "off piste" private lessons with a French instructor here in Les Saisies and it's generally been
around 50% on the piste. I know that easiski takes even very early beginner classes "off piste" - part of her philosophy, i think. That doesn't mean going into scary terrain - just learning about different snow types, crud, etc.
I'm looking forward very much to a focussed, concentrated, week of learning to ski off piste. Whether or not there is any "powder" is obviously in the lap of the snow gods.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
pam w, Charlotte gave me my first lessons off piste... she is very good.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
pam w wrote:
I know that easiski takes even very early beginner classes "off piste" - part of her philosophy, i think. That doesn't mean going into scary terrain - just learning about different snow types, crud, etc
I do the same. That is how my girlfriend Nerys was skiing in powder amongst the trees on Day 8.
Most people avoid avoid non-pisted terrain for far too long until it becomes some pyschological mystique thing.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Mike Pow, I did wait until my second day skiing before attempting knee deep powder in Canada. Funnily enough I crashed a hell of a lot, but also laughed a lot too
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Stance height doesn't directly affect how much pressure there is on a ski, extending/flexing from that position will, but given a flat ski and a static stance you only exert your own bodyweight regardless of how tall/low you stand. A lower stance will allow you to tip the skis over more, which in turn will create more pressure.
The OP hasn't really been answered in respect to getting more forwards, I wouldn't encourage him to lever off the front of the boots, but being centred if you are currently in the backseat is really important. Good exercises for this are hopping in the transition (hard to jump from an unbalanced position), lifting the tail of the inside ski whilst maintaining contact with the tip, shuffling the skis backwards and forwards is a good way to activate the ankle as well. Probably best to get an instructor to help though as it's sometimes a little hard to know if you are doing them well or not.
Mike, were you teaching in Hirafu yesterday? Thought I heard a welsh accent, do you have a red helmet?
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
I think what you're saying is that, once you've initiated your turn (by standing tall and flattening the skis?) you let the skis do the rest (without any pressure or edging or pivoting? Really??) and, when they've taken you sufficiently uphill to feel comfortable, you do the same again.
Generally I've found that making sudden changes in deep snow lead to that same snow taking on the imprint of my face. As you get more experienced and the balance comes more naturally you can of course experiment with bounce turns, unweighting on terrain etc.
