 Poster: A snowHead
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Paul Mason,
If still a problem have l a esson with an instructor you trust... 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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easiski, have just been reading this - lured in by the title as I have the same problem as Paul Mason and am looking to correct myself. But this bejes hijaked the thread (at last, it's not ME being bluddy annoying!!! ) and so I'm none the wiser. Do you mind PMing me the info you sent Paul Mason? Many thanks in advance.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I am always impressed with what lenghts people will go to improve. I know people are keen because that is almost a definition of a  but these debates are great, I think.
Mind you, some of them are a bit obsessive, or rather the posters are, but there you go...!!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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easiski, myself and snowbird think the exercises are fantastic.
So much so I have sold my " Lovers Guide" videos today for Children in Need. 
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If you read the thread my first post was answering that question that was asked.
I then said I prefer harbs style of skiing and to ski whichever way you wanted.
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If you have anything that goes against what i have said easiski i'd like to hear it!
Paul mason, if you want to ski like that dude warren smith, then this seems to be the place to hang out.
Personally I prefer Harbs style. Suit yourself."
So instead of discussing the different technical approaches it turns into a slanging match.
Manda, start a thread by all means. It will probably turn out like this one has.
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bejes, how does Warren Smith ski, and what's wrong with it?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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WTFH, can you see a difference in Ws skiing and Harbs? I can, and as i said prefer the pmts thing. Watching HH ski it looks very relaxed, the upper body, the legs, everything really.
Also for instance in the ws clips, I see an upper body extension at the start of turns, rather as in pmts it would be a flexing move of the old stance leg.
When your upper body goes up at the start of turns you get later edge engagement and end up putting more pressure at the end of the turn, as i think you can see if you go to any ski area and watch the majority of skiers. Not saying WS is a bad skier by any means, just I prefer PMTS.
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bejes, I have only ever seen the "approved" clips of HH skiing - the ones which compare him free skiing with a PSIA instructor taking beginners out, and the claims that it proves something or other.
When I've seen WS ski, it has been on completely different terrain to the slopes of the HH videos, so I find it difficult to make a comparison.
But, when I have skiied with Eric DesLauriers, watched videos of him, and read in his book - I see very little difference between WS and Eric, apart from some of the terminology.
Neither of them have a "stance" leg - they use both legs, not having one locked in a stance, where it can't do anything but ride the turn. They have both legs flexed, and ready for what's coming next.
As for where someone chooses to "hang out", this forum is not run by the PSIA, BASI, ISIA, or any other organisation, so people are free to discuss different ideas. I realise this means we are unlikely ever to be graced with HH's presence, as he only likes to post on forums where he is seen as a genius, and no one questions him.
If he would entertain questions from individuals, and consider other ideas as possibilities, then maybe realskiers would be more of a discussion forum, and less of a worship centre.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I prefer Smidht out of all of them but no one can ever say Plake can't ski for example. After you get the mechanics it becomes a degree of style. No one has re-invented the wheel here, IMV.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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The concept of the 'stance leg' relates to if you are turning left or right. Turning to the right, your stance leg is the left and vice versa.
The free foot, so called i think as it has less weight on it. The amount of flex varies throughout the turn and the type of release, you probably have read about the weighted, superphantom etc etc.
I don't know how your outside leg eg carving can do much but resist the turn forces. (ie it's extended) If most of your weight is on this ski or even say 70% then i really don't think you can actively twist or steer it. So then at the end of the turn (release and transition) it flexes along with the other leg. This collapsing of the stance leg is what brings your COM over your skis for the next turn. At the same time it's tipping strongly to the little toe edge WHILE being pulled or held back. This keeps you over your skis. Then the new stance leg resists the turn forces and extends to stay in contact with the snow. Along with this is upper body stuff like counter balance, counter etc.
( The exercies you might have seen where its lifted off the snow are training exercises to improve balance) If you look on the WS you will see numerous references to inside leg steering, knee pointing etc. The key difference here in pmts is the inside (free foot) leg is not twisted but tipped, starting from the foot/ankle. The 6 inches difference of where your free foot is through the turn makes a massive difference esp balance. Try it! you can be out of balance by a few inches, once you get the free foot in the right spot it all starts to happen. First time i read about that was through pmts, and i had had quite a few lessons up till then.
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easiski, 5f this exercise is that good can I have it as well .... hey Paul Mason, seems the most contented man in the Universe ( and seriously can I have the exercise please?)
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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bejes, I'm sorry, but this all sounds ridiculously over-complicated. (And don't tell me I don't understand it - because I do and, so do most on this forum - that would be insulting).
Look - ski-ing is just like walking, your body can only work how it works normally (biomechanics). You move from one foot to the other. Neither leg should be stiff, and no-one's suggested they should be. If you stay in position, with your hips (COM if you must) over the balls of your feet throughout the turn, there's no need for any fancy stuff with either foot. You have a skeleton - use it.
You say WS references inside knee steering/pointing - how do you get from there to twisting??? If you move your inside knee to the inside at the start of the turn, both skis are edged, parallel and shins parallel. How much weight you maintain on the inside ski is dependent on what you want or feel comfortable with etc. difference here in pmts is the inside (free foot) leg is not twisted but tipped, starting from the foot/ankle - what difference??? THIS IS NOTHING NEW OR DIFFERENT. Everything in ski-ing starts from the foot - everyone knows it, and they've been teaching this for at least 50 years (the time BTW I've been ski-ing).
What's with this 6" difference in leg position? fore/aft or in/out? Your feet should be under your body, stand on the front of your foot (to keep you perpendicular to the slope), and your legs should be where they naturally dangle. It's not rocket science, and neither does it need lots of complicated phrases to explain something that is perfectly natural.
Quote from the website of Damian Albert (ex French bumps champion and freeride instructor/guide) "le ski n'est pas trés compliqué et se résume à appuyer sur le bon ski au bon moment." http://www.abc-skifreeride.com for your info. Of course, he's ski-ing in rugged, steep, unpisted terrain, so in his photos he's not perfect - I could name some faults, but hey! you can't be perfect all the time if you're really doing it! The site is mainly in French, but that quote should be comprehensible even to people who don't speak French.
Watch people like Plake and Schmidt and you may see technical faults - they're still in the top 5% in the world - so who cares. Watch Benny Raich (fantastic technique) to see how it should be done. The point though, is that's it's dynamic, flowing and natural. Overcomplicating it makes people think too much and are consequently stiff and robotic.
Rant over - bedtime here in France, hoping for more snow soon. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| easiski wrote: |
bejes, I'm sorry, but this all sounds ridiculously over-complicated. (And don't tell me I don't understand it - because I do and, so do most on this forum - that would be insulting).
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I know I'm in the noisy minority but I do NOT understand it. Not only does BJES write a load of complicated codswallop but if I had read that before I went skiing I wouldn't have bothered .... as I recall the original question was reasonably intelligible. Anyway HH = Helly Hansen nm.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sat 19-11-05 11:04; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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eEvans, PM on way
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| easiski wrote: |
| Look - ski-ing is just like walking |
I believe this is where someone should say "End off"
Cause if you can walk, you can ski - you already have all the balance and co-ordination that you need.
One of the big blockers to people skiing is mental - their brain wants to over-complicate it. Or, worse still, they are convinced by others that you need to make it more complex.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| One of the big blockers to people skiing is mental - their brain wants to over-complicate it. Or, worse still, they are convinced by others that you need to make it more complex. |
second that, when I understood this I began to 'ski', up until then I'd been so focussed on what various instructors had tried to teach me that all I thought about was what I was doing 'wrong'. forget about perfect technique (mine definitely isn't) and have fun, that's what it's all about.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Perhaps that is why some people ski better when they have had a drink or two - because their brain is no longer over-riding their body as much. (not that I'm advocating skiing while intoxicated)
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nice to have a Red Bull with lunch, gives the afternoon skiing a bit of zing!
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Wear The Fox Hat, time for a new dryland skills thread: 'walk better to ski better'?
(somewhere, somewhen, fastman wrote about this)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I have a bum - and I fully intend to sit on it as I ski
Hold on... No!!! - that's why my legs get tired.
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Apologies for getting you into another slanging match easiski.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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When i said stiff i mean extended, ie resisting the force ie co-contracted, otherwise you would fall down.
The word 'steering' in my book implies a rotary or twisting motion ie steering wheel of a car? YOu turn the wheel. This is clearly different to tipping, which people seem to have difficulty understanding.
Knee pointing is not the same as starting a movement at the foot.
If skiing was just like walking , well there should be way more better skiers on the slopes. Any one here only an internediate 'walker'? It's obviously more difficult than walking.
As no one has commented on the difference in skiing between HH and others, I assume there is no interest.
If most people do understand what im talking about, then who sees a difference in skiing technique between harb and smith? If you can't well you don't understand.
No one has actually come out with criticsism of harbs skiing. Lets see some videos of the other instructors here and we can compare notes 
I'll go back to where i belong now.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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bejes,
I don't know the difference between them but then I'm not likely to care either. Probably both damn fine skiers but then you can go to anywhere in the alpes and find damn fine skiers and you don't have to try too hard IMV. If people want to follow a certain way of teaching then fine, you pay your money etc but as i've said before I think people get too hung up on things as it is. To me, its put the ski on edge and turn and there are many ways of doing that. You may need help in this and therefore an instructor is useful but the principle of the ski is always edge it to turn. Its as simple as you like or as complicated as you like depending on how well you can do it. And the one things that stops alot of people progressing is this 'secret technique' type angle. For example lots of off-piste is on the same gradient as a red run so with a helpful ski and the abilty to ski reds, off-piste should be attemptable by advanced intermediates. But by the way some people speak it is this huge quantum leap. I don't want to undersell off-piste - for obvious reasons - but it isn't the mystic way some would have you believe.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| bejes wrote: |
| No one has actually come out with criticsism of harbs skiing. |
OK: He claims to teach the same thing that racers do. Well, I was watching the Mens and Ladies GS today on TV, and:
1. the top three of both genders showed tip lead,
2. were using both feet to make turns, and
3. were varying the width between their feet, depending on the terrain - on the steeper, icy stuff, the horizontal distance was less, but the tip lead more obvious than on the flatter, where the stance was wider, and the use of both skis, without any movement of the inside ski towards the outside while making the turn.
These three points go against what Harald preaches.
If you watch the video of the races, it's very obvious!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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bejes, I take it you didn't bother to check out Damian's website!
Knee pointing is not the same as starting a movement at the foot. If you push your knee to the inside of the turn you foot tips!
If skiing was just like walking , well there should be way more better skiers on the slopes The difficult thing is the head stuff - if everyone thought of ski-ing like walking there would be more good skiers on the slopes - it's all the utter rubbish talked by certain instructors that convince people that it's more difficult.
I assume there is no interest. No - none at all. We've seen the videos, read the articles and some of the books and concluded the guy is a waste of space. Is that clear enough for you?
who sees a difference in skiing technique between harb and smith Take Warren Smith any day. OTOH I prefer Bennie Raich - I've already said that. I think there's some selective reading going on here.
I am really fed up with threads on this line, however I feel bound to reply, as otherwise dangerous (IMO) theories get propounded on Snowheads.
Moderators - feel free to edit if you think it's necessary.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| easiski wrote: |
| Take Warren Smith any day. OTOH I prefer Bennie Raich. |
Are you still talking ski technique here? if not his email is "benni@raich.at"
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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The word 'steering' in my book implies a turn using a blend of 3 of the following fundemental skills: Pivoting, Edging and Pressure Control.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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easiski, you're absolutely right, skiing is like walking you put one foot in front of the other and you stay balanced. You've only to watch kids skiing, no hang-ups, no over complication, they just do it instinctively.
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easiski, Note the word "blend"
Re the discussion about tip lead - this is not a concious (or shouldn't be) movement, it's a result of something else happening.
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veeeight, Quite, the reason everyone gets a certain amount of inside tip lead is that your legs are more or less the same length but you're on a hill, consequently your inside leg advances a little to be comfortable. This is entirely natural. I find the idea of deliberately drawing back the inside ski/foot whatever (all attached together after all), very odd as it will have not only the effect of rotation as mentioned above but also tend to take pressure and weight off the outside ski as your legs become more level. Actually the Italians seem to have a very pronounced tip lead in their young racers, as they get lower the lead increases. I would'nt like to criticise the Italian method, seeing how elegant and balanced they always seem to be!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Y'know there's only one reason we need instructors.
Coz we ain't got the time.
Think about it. We learn to walk not coz we can (although it is true that it is the most efficent means of movement for humans).
No.
We learn to walk coz we're taught to. By our family, and by everyone else around us for about 5+ years, we get constant lessons and feedback about how we shuld move. And then we spend every waking moment of the next 5 years or so refining the skill and learning to do it with grace.
Do the same with skiing, surely it'd come "naturally".
But except for the exceptionally lucky, no-one has that kind of time nor the free and interested instructors.
So we pay good money for short lessons with good quality instructors.
Here endeth the lesson.
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| Manda wrote: |
Y'know there's only one reason we need instructors.
Coz we ain't got the time.
...
Here endeth the lesson. |
Manda, I think you're in the wrong lesson!
From what you're saying, if we weren't taught to walk as children, or if we didn't observe others walking, then we'd do it naturally, but it might take 10+years.
I don't think so.
If someone has enough time to learn skiing without learning, it would be interesting to see. For one, they'd have no understanding of how to fall safely - so, they'd get injured more.
With no expanation, how would they understand skier responsibility?
How do they turn? What pain do they go through to learn to turn?
How do they stop? How do they learn that?
If there is no one to observe them, how can they correct mistakes? You get a lot of people who say they don't need lessons, or don't have the time for them, or whatever reason, but they could ski better if they would allow someone who knows more to watch them, help them and teach them.
Either that, or scrap all forms of education, and just let people pick it up as they go along, with no help from others!
I realise you like to "end of" or "end the lesson", but it looks to me like it hasn't really been thought through very well. 
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FAQ
It's just unfortunate that I don't understand 
