 Poster: A snowHead
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Thanks for the clarifications, so we are looking to have grip 'entering' the fall line.
To get early grip, I need edge angle. The get edge angle I must roll my skis. Will this be easier or harder if I have my legs completely straight and have maximum pressure between calf and ski boot ? I still think the answer is 'posture'. Also 'speed'. No point trying to imitate a high edge angle without the appropriate forces in the turn, otherwise I just end up bearing weight on my inside ski on a line that passes almost directly through my center of gravity and my optimistically inclined inside ski.
Mosha marc, basically yes. Nowadays, we are encouraged to refer to the 'flow line' so as not to scare the students.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| thirty06 wrote: |
| maximum pressure between calf and ski boot ? |
pressure on calf = leaning back = BAD!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| thirty06 wrote: |
Thanks for the clarifications, so we are looking to have grip 'entering' the fall line.
To get early grip, I need edge angle. The get edge angle I must roll my skis. Will this be easier or harder if I have my legs completely straight and have maximum pressure between calf and ski boot ? I still think the answer is 'posture'. Also 'speed'. No point trying to imitate a high edge angle without the appropriate forces in the turn, otherwise I just end up bearing weight on my inside ski on a line that passes almost directly through my center of gravity and my optimistically inclined inside ski.
Mosha marc, basically yes. Nowadays, we are encouraged to refer to the 'flow line' so as not to scare the students. |
Like I said, stance is very important, but my point was that you could have perfect stance but still have a flat ski and no grip, you need something extra with that stance to create angles, namely inclination, and yes, speed will help as well.
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To get early grip I usually need to add pressure to the ski. Edge angle in itself won't do anything if your body is moving away from your skis.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rjs wrote: |
| To get early grip I usually need to add pressure to the ski. Edge angle in itself won't do anything if your body is moving away from your skis. |
Exactly. For me timing is everything. You need to make sure you stand on the edged ski at the right time and the right rate, otherwise it won't grip as effectively as you want it to.
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jimmer,
Yes, I could have perfect stance and no edge, if I chose, but I can't get edge angle unless I have appropriate hip angle and my weight over the right part of the ski, back weighting in the transition will delay the grip at the shovel, it will happen eventually if I bounce forward, but then I'll have forward weight at the fall line instead of even underfoot pressure.
If my speed is too low, I can't effectively use the edge angle without contortions that my frame is too inflexible to manage. I do know a couple of teenage slalom racers who can set off down a 50m dry slope and snap out minimum radius turns in the first ten feet. I am unable to do this because
a) my superb athletic endurance training tends to favour type 1 slow twitch muscle fibres which are less useful for this
or
b) I'm 49
rjs
So true, I still get it wrong sometimes and that feeling of skis running away from me is one that tells me my timing is off. Projecting down the fall line with the body , but not actually changing edges effectively seems to be the cause, especially not making effective use of the outside ski. the drill of positively lifting the new inside ski and riding the edge all the way round then making a positive placement of the lifted ski has helped with this. Place the lifted ski with pole plant, roll edges and lift the new inside ski as I cross over my skis, etc. The lift is achieved by extension of the supporting leg. By the time I've extended I'm through the fall line and ready to do it over again.
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thirty06, I didn't disagree with any of that, I just said your initial assertion that the key to early edge grip is 'posture and timing' was lacking a key element.
rjs, well, your CoM has to move away from your skis otherwise you can't get any edge angle, how much you can/need to incline is dependent on your speed and the radius of the turn. In a high performance turn the transition phase before the fall line can be thought of as a 'float' phase, where little pressure is on the skis, you are basically just setting up for the fall line or just after it, where the majority of the pressure is found.
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jimmer, I don't "float" at all, I extend my legs to keep pressure on the skis above the fall line.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Why?
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jimmer, To get "early grip", that is the title of the thread isn't it.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rjs wrote: |
| jimmer, To get "early grip", that is the title of the thread isn't it. |
True, but I was hoping for a more full explanation of why extending both your legs in the transition would provide early grip, as it doesn't really make sense to me.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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By extending both your legs in/after the transition you are pushing your body away from your skis, and as a result you put pressure on your skis. Because you are edging your skis then provide a firm grip on the snow (given that the edge angle is high enough).
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Pretty sure jimmer is right, you should extend your legs after the transition, you want to apply the pressure once your feet are no longer under you and have set the angle. Extend too early and you'll get an "up-unweighting" effect just as you are looking to find grip...
but let's be honest we may be nitpicking a little here....
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You know it makes sense.
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| jimmer wrote: |
| rjs wrote: |
| jimmer, To get "early grip", that is the title of the thread isn't it. |
True, but I was hoping for a more full explanation of why extending both your legs in the transition would provide early grip, as it doesn't really make sense to me. |
Your earlier post suggested that the transition lasts up to the fall line:
| Quote: |
| In a high performance turn the transition phase before the fall line can be thought of as a 'float' phase, where little pressure is on the skis, you are basically just setting up for the fall line or just after it, where the majority of the pressure is found. |
If you are on your new edges a long way above the fall line then you have finished with the transition IMV. Your CoM will still be moving away from your skis so you need to add pressure to them to get them to grip, extending one or both legs is the only way to add the pressure needed.
I feel that it is better to think about generating enough pressure directly rather than just teaching movement patterns that will generate it as a side effect.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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A possible way to look at it is, that while you are carving turns you are always in transition. Going from one transition to the next, and in between turns/curves, where there is the smallest (possible) moment where you don't pressurize your skis, the skis are flat on the snow underneath you. At the start of the turn or curve you extend your legs and while your skis are tipped on edge you put pressure on them and via them on the snow. At the apex of the turn (at the fall-line) your skis come around (and towards you) and you start to flex your legs while maintaining pressure on the skis.
In this way you can/could maintain egual pressure on the skis throughout the turn and in this way make curves with (almost) constant radius, ideally. At least that's the flow and rythm in movement and force that I am trying to achieve. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Pretty sure everyone is picturing the same thing but explaining it differently... just an observation
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rjs wrote: |
| jimmer wrote: |
| rjs wrote: |
| jimmer, To get "early grip", that is the title of the thread isn't it. |
True, but I was hoping for a more full explanation of why extending both your legs in the transition would provide early grip, as it doesn't really make sense to me. |
Your earlier post suggested that the transition lasts up to the fall line:
| Quote: |
| In a high performance turn the transition phase before the fall line can be thought of as a 'float' phase, where little pressure is on the skis, you are basically just setting up for the fall line or just after it, where the majority of the pressure is found. |
If you are on your new edges a long way above the fall line then you have finished with the transition IMV. Your CoM will still be moving away from your skis so you need to add pressure to them to get them to grip, extending one or both legs is the only way to add the pressure needed.
I feel that it is better to think about generating enough pressure directly rather than just teaching movement patterns that will generate it as a side effect. |
The thing is that the pressure that skiers feel is not something they create, but a function of speed and edge angle, so you can affect it for a second though extension/flexion, but really it's something that is created through tipping your skis over, if you don't tip your skis, you won't feel pressure, and you won't get grip.
At the top of the turn, the speed and edge angle are lower, and gravity is almost as strong as centrifugal force, so you don't feel as much pressure, there's some, but not much compared to in the pressure/control phase.
Here's a section from the NZSIA manual referring to grip,
For turning to take place the ski must grip the snow to some degree. This is dependent on:
• the ski must penetrate the snow
• the snow must hold and push back against the ski
On hard pack the snow compacts very little and reacts and pushes back very quickly. In powder and softer snow the reaction that creates turning, happens slower because the snow must compact to a point where it can push back against the ski, and cause the skier to turn.
In a turn a skier experiences the combined effects of gravity and centrifugal force. This can be called the resultant force (ref. Ron LeMaster, Ultimate Skiing, 2009). This is the average of centrifugal and centripetal forces.
The faster the skier travels through a turn the greater the centripetal and centrifugal forces. This results in the angle of the resultant force also being more inclined and allows for the skier to incline further. This is important to understand, because to what degree the ski grips is determined by the angle of the ski to this force.
The reaction force from the snow is always perpendicular to the ski. When the ski is tipped up and penetrates the snow it creates a groove in the snow to support the ski. Assuming that the snow can hold the force of the ski and the ski, or platform is 90 degrees or greater to the resultant force, the ski will hold and carve. At angles greater than 90 degrees to the resultant force the ski will carve a tighter radius. If the ski is tipped to less than 90 degrees to the resultant force the ski will begin to slip and skidding will occur. The more the platform angle decreases the more the ski will skid. Controlling
the relationship of the angle of the platform (skis) to the resultant force is controlling the amount of skidding a skier will use in a turn.

Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Mon 19-08-13 13:31; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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rjs,
| Quote: |
| If you are on your new edges a long way above the fall line then you have finished with the transition IMV |
That's an interesting point. When does the 'transition' start and end ?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| AndAnotherThing.. wrote: |
rjs,
| Quote: |
| If you are on your new edges a long way above the fall line then you have finished with the transition IMV |
That's an interesting point. When does the 'transition' start and end ? |
when your skis are flat IMHO
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| Quote: |
AndAnotherThing.. wrote:
rjs, Quote:
If you are on your new edges a long way above the fall line then you have finished with the transition IMV
That's an interesting point. When does the 'transition' start and end ?
when your skis are flat IMHO
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I always think of the transition as the movement from skis set on one edge to when the moment they engage on the other.
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beequin, A turn transition is the method by which one turn is brought to a conclusion, and a new turn is begun. As such it is NOT the turn itself, but rather it is a (or the) connector of separate turns.[/i]
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skimastaaah, That is what I thought I said.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I've been looking in here with interest. I think this grip issue is what I am currently working on, particularly on the outside ski of the turn. I can put pressure on it, but I think I do it when it is too angled onto its edge, and this is why I push the heel away too much and make the stem.
When rob@rar helped me to focus on getting the weight more over the outside ski to begin with (and I think I will still have the problem next week if I do some practice at chill factore) I was almost left in a situation where the ski was then too flat on the snow to make the turn - I can recall consciously adjusting that angle and pressure to then make the turn work as best as I could without so much angle that I lost control of the tail of the ski - though Rob did seem happy with the result I achieved and I actually felt the entire ski length inscribe the arc. It seems to me as though there is a lot of finesse involved in having the weight sufficiently balanced over the outside ski that is angled enough to turn, but no so angled that the pressure will push the tail away too much. This is clearly where I need to practice, but this discussion is very interesting as I think it relates to this issue.
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| Megamum wrote: |
I've been looking in here with interest. I think this grip issue is what I am currently working on, particularly on the outside ski of the turn. I can put pressure on it, but I think I do it when it is too angled onto its edge, and this is why I push the heel away too much and make the stem.
When rob@rar helped me to focus on getting the weight more over the outside ski to begin with (and I think I will still have the problem next week if I do some practice at chill factore) I was almost left in a situation where the ski was then too flat on the snow to make the turn - I can recall consciously adjusting that angle and pressure to then make the turn work as best as I could without so much angle that I lost control of the tail of the ski - though Rob did seem happy with the result I achieved and I actually felt the entire ski length inscribe the arc. It seems to me as though there is a lot of finesse involved in having the weight sufficiently balanced over the outside ski that is angled enough to turn, but no so angled that the pressure will push the tail away too much. This is clearly where I need to practice, but this discussion is very interesting as I think it relates to this issue. |
This thread is more aimed towards a high performance short turn, but the situation you describe where you can incline the ski so much you lose control of the tail isn't familiar to me, if you're doing that, there's probably a rotational element going on as well.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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jimmer, well I think I wouldn't push the tail out unless I had it on edge to some degree - I can't imagine that I could push a flat ski out. Once on edge if my weight isn't right I am going to unequdally push against the length of the ski with the result that I lose the tail. That must be what happens. Still don't mind me, sorry for butting into an interesting conversation, please ignore me and I'll disappear off the radar again, but I now know what I've got to try and achieve - I think it clicked at HH the other week, I've now got to think it through to my feet and do it instinctively. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Megamum, I think that something may have been lost in translation. I don't know what Rob was working on specifically, but I'd suggest that rather than visualising "getting the weight more over the outside ski" rephrasing it to "getting the weight against the outside ski" might help.
'Over' tends to imply a flat ski, where are 'against' implies that the ski is supporting you (so tilted).
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AndAnotherThing.., IIRC, I think the phrase was 'stand on' - probably with the intent that I would over-play it and then realise what was needed - I think it worked.
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You know it makes sense.
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AndAnotherThing.., Megamum, will give a fuller reply later as I'm just about to head to San Diego for the day, but in the few tips I gave that evening I was trying to reduce the tendency to push the tail of the outside ski sideways when you started each turn. As you began to make progress with that I asked you to change your focus from "standing on the outside ski" at the start of the turn to "stand on the edge of the outside ski, and feel it grip the snow all the way round the turn".
I think the issues that Megamum is wrestling with are very similar to the challenges that more experienced skiers face when trying to get early grip in a high performance short radius turns.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Megamum wrote: |
| I It seems to me as though there is a lot of finesse involved in having the weight sufficiently balanced over the outside ski that is angled enough to turn, but no so angled that the pressure will push the tail away too much. This is clearly where I need to practice, but this discussion is very interesting as I think it relates to this issue. |
Absolutely true, as speed and pressure builds you'll need to apply more edge,with less speed and less pressure you need less edge, but pushing the ski away won't help (this was something I also did amoungst my many faults!!)
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| kitenski wrote: |
| Megamum wrote: |
| I It seems to me as though there is a lot of finesse involved in having the weight sufficiently balanced over the outside ski that is angled enough to turn, but no so angled that the pressure will push the tail away too much. This is clearly where I need to practice, but this discussion is very interesting as I think it relates to this issue. |
Absolutely true, as speed and pressure builds you'll need to apply more edge,with less speed and less pressure you need less edge, but pushing the ski away won't help (this was something I also did amoungst my many faults!!) |
All three are intrinsically linked, without edge angle, you have no pressure, you can't create high edge angles without speed. If you go fast with low edge angle you will either make a very large radius turn, or lose grip.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Just popping in to say that for some reason I'm really enjoying this thread. This makes me really want to get back on snow more than anything else because I really want to have a bit of a play with edges through the turn. How sad is that 
But please, keep going, this is really interesting and educational, and I'm definitely going to be trying a few things when I do get back on snow!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Did many people read the link that I posted? Thoughts?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| jimmer wrote: |
| Did many people read the link that I posted? Thoughts? |
Nope, didn't seem much point if you were just going to copy stuff from elsewhere rather than think for yourself.
I was sure that it would be fine as far as it went.
I guess I can ask Ron LeMaster in a couple of weeks and report back.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| rjs wrote: |
| jimmer wrote: |
| Did many people read the link that I posted? Thoughts? |
Nope, didn't seem much point if you were just going to copy stuff from elsewhere rather than think for yourself.
I was sure that it would be fine as far as it went.
I guess I can ask Ron LeMaster in a couple of weeks and report back. |
I had already thought for myself, you just seemed to have some misconceptions about how pressure can be generated in skiing, so I thought a thorough explanation might help you.
Great, are you going to show him this thread!? 
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| jimmer wrote: |
| I had already thought for myself, you just seemed to have some misconceptions about how pressure can be generated in skiing, so I thought a thorough explanation might help you. |
Take a look at the Hirscher video again, how do you think that he is getting his skis to carve above the fall line ? If you haven't got it already there are various programs that will let you download it as an HD video so that you can freeze frame it.
You are making much broader statements than are in the NZSIA manual or in Ultimate Skiing.
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| rjs wrote: |
| jimmer wrote: |
| I had already thought for myself, you just seemed to have some misconceptions about how pressure can be generated in skiing, so I thought a thorough explanation might help you. |
Take a look at the Hirscher video again, how do you think that he is getting his skis to carve above the fall line ? If you haven't got it already there are various programs that will let you download it as an HD video so that you can freeze frame it.
You are making much broader statements than are in the NZSIA manual or in Ultimate Skiing. |
I watched Hirscher ski in person this morning thanks, and he gets his skis to carve above the fall line by tipping them over. Please enlighten me as to where anything I have said is inconsistent with what is in the NZ manual.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| jimmer wrote: |
| Did many people read the link that I posted? Thoughts? |
Didn't really settle the argument 
| NZSIA wrote: |
| Skiers create and manage these forces through co-ordinating skilful movements of the body. |
| jimmer wrote: |
rjs, well, your CoM has to move away from your skis otherwise you can't get any edge angle, how much you can/need to incline is dependent on your speed and the radius of the turn. In a high performance turn the transition phase before the fall line can be thought of as a 'float' phase, where little pressure is on the skis, you are basically just setting up for the fall line or just after it, where the majority of the pressure is found. |
| rjs wrote: |
| jimmer, I don't "float" at all, I extend my legs to keep pressure on the skis above the fall line. |
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| Kenny wrote: |
| jimmer wrote: |
| Did many people read the link that I posted? Thoughts? |
Didn't really settle the argument
| NZSIA wrote: |
| Skiers create and manage these forces through co-ordinating skilful movements of the body. |
| jimmer wrote: |
rjs, well, your CoM has to move away from your skis otherwise you can't get any edge angle, how much you can/need to incline is dependent on your speed and the radius of the turn. In a high performance turn the transition phase before the fall line can be thought of as a 'float' phase, where little pressure is on the skis, you are basically just setting up for the fall line or just after it, where the majority of the pressure is found. |
| rjs wrote: |
| jimmer, I don't "float" at all, I extend my legs to keep pressure on the skis above the fall line. |
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No, that quote didn't settle the debate, but if you read the whole thing, and especially the part I quoted in my post, you'll see that grip is strongly dependent on edge angle. 'Pressuring' a flat ski through extending your legs, is not going to help you grip at all. And as for rjs somehow maintaining even pressure throughout a turn, it's just not possible, at least not at any speed, which is what we are discussing.
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FAQ
